For quite some time here I have seen many people come out and say that they are going to break the 200whp with all motor, bla, bla. For the most part they are laughed at and told turbo or juice it up. Well, I am here to say that you guys are right. Look at my mod list, which is still lacking. I have done EVERYTHING short of the juice or turbo. I have to say that I would have loved to get more out of the car given that I poored so much money, time, and effort into it. But the facts are, our cars just don't make power all motor. We need the forced induction to make power.
So, here they are, the dyno results. Unfortunately, I can't upload the picture for some reason right now, but anyhow.

126 ft-lbs of torque was max torque
135 whp was max horsepower

These numbers are extremely disapointing. Especially considering that before the rebuild, I was making about 20 hp less than I am now. And before I tuned the car on the dyno, I was making just as much as before. But once I tuned the fuel, etc. I gained the 20 hp that I have more than before now.

This is more or less to give all those all motors heads some down to earth advice. If you want to make a lot of power, turbo. That is the most cost effective way to make big power. If you add up the cost to all those parts I bought, they way more than pay for the cost of a turbo upgrade.

I am going to try and get the dyno page to post shortly. Till then, maybe you all have some tuning comments for me to help me get a bit more out of the beast. And don't worry, the juice is coming.. ...

Oh, and she detonates like a screemin' whore. I have to get some retard control on her soon.

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

Something isn't tuned right with your setup.
What do your 02 voltages look like? Bad 02 sensor? Have both of them hooked up? Is your timing correct? compression #'s?
With basic bolt-ons and cam gears compact car Mag made 175whp on the dyno.

Somethings not right.


Nick
97RS


THX KAPTAIN MYKE FOR HOSTING! www.kaptainmyke.com

Originally posted by Collente
Something isn't tuned right with your setup. What do your 02 voltages look like? Bad 02 sensor? Have both of them hooked up? Is your timing correct? compression #'s? With basic bolt-ons and cam gears compact car Mag made 175whp on the dyno. Somethings not right. Nick 97RS THX KAPTAIN MYKE FOR HOSTING! www.kaptainmyke.com

Evo 8 - 12.3@113 circa 2009 (~330whp)
Now with BB Xona Rotor HTZ FP Red and ~450whp
2018 MSM Civic SI Ktuner TSP stage 1 w/ Honda hacked headunit.

~Luke
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1969 Cougar - 11.91 - 380HP
2007 GSXR 750
1999 OZ - SOLD - 15.26 NA - 14.71 on 75 shot

damn you should be making like 160+ with that shit. Maybe you need a different set of cams .

Sounds about right to me. Don't know why you got bigger injectors though. Probably wouldn't even max out the stockers. Though it's definitely not tuned to it's maximum potential. The cams are pretty mild as well. For NA you'd need something much more aggressive. What'd you set the cam gears to as well? There is NO WAY you should be detonating on 10.5:1 compression so there is something wrong right there (unless you're using 87 octane).

-"Easy Mac"
05 Mazda RX-8 (RR8 #88)
99 Eclipse RS 398whp & 372lb-ft

Yeah there's something wrong with your set up. You are running premium gas right?

At 10.5:1 you shouldn't be detonation. Are you sure the physical timing is correct? Any check engine codes?

What air fuel ratio are you tuning to on the dyno?



Exile Racing Technologies: http://www.exileracing.com
Assasin of Joy

That is what I can't figure out. I had the deck shaved, but I don't know exactly how much the machine shop took off... maybe a little more than I wanted... or the pistons could actually be the 12.5:1 instead of the 10.5:1 I ordered. From experience and what I have heard on this forum, Howell's rep is not so good with everybody... but that is a different thread. Anyhow, I am pretty sure that it is detonation.
I have to agree with the fuel injectors comment as well. I had to lean the crap out of my fuel mix to get it where I wanted it. I have it at -32% on the safc II controller. LOL...
But hey, it is right on the money now, also I am going to be running nitrous soon, so I will not have to worry about going lean when I juice 'er up.
I have the cams set at advance 2 degrees on the intake and retard 2 degrees on the exhaust. I would have played with them more, but when I did that last adjustment on them I gained a whole .4 Hp on the Dyno when I was tuning the fuel and cam gears, so I left them alone.

And for whoever said my cams are not agressive, they are a decently agressive cam. I would still like to drive this thing daily, LOL.


I was hoping for that number you were all putting out there, the magic 175whp. And I have to say that I am pretty damn dissapointed. I won't rule out the fact that I may not have everything tuned just perfect, but I will say that there is no way in hell I am going to get another 40whp from my shitty tuning job.
Before I tuned everything I was at like 116whp. I gained a solid 20whp from my tuning job. In some parts of the power curve I gained a total of about 27whp. So I think I did a good job tuning. The most I think I can pull out of her is MAYBE another 3-4whp... MAYBE, but I doubt it.

Anyhow, if any of you have any tips I am open for sudgestions.

I am getting a timing retard module to hook up to my ignition to hopefully get a few more whp, maybe break 140whp lol, and get rid of that damn knocking.

Thanks for the comments, keep 'em coming!

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

Oh, I am tuning to about 13 for the fuel on the dyno, and yes, I have a CEL. For many things actually... my cars computer hates all these mods. Which brings me to a bitching point... No one out there makes after markey computers for the 98 and up GS... so I am stuck with this one which is probably robbing me of some power, and keeping my rev limit at 7200. With as wide as my power band is, I would like to be shifting around 7500-7700, but my damn limiter kicks in. That and I still cant go faster than 125mph, cuz my computer cuts my fuel out...

and I do run 93octane gas. all the time... shell or chevron only! (got stock in 'em)
Oh yea, everyone, only use chevron gas... it is the best ever... it makes your car go faster.... j/k

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

i wouldnt have the exhaust cam set at -2, i found that with my decked head the closer you are to 0 the better the car runs. My car would bog and hesitate like crazy when my exhaust cam was off.

Aem Cold Air AFX 55mm TB
Fidanza Cam Gears NGK Wires
AFX UDP Greddy Header
Gutted Cat Greddy Evo Catback
Energy Suspension MMI Eibach Sportlines
Tokico Blues...always more to come

What brand of dyno did you use? I've seen a celica gt-s tested on three different dynos and make 171 whp on one, 152 on another and 136 on another(not in that particular order) The temps and conditions for each run where all consistent. Run on a different dyno and see what you come up with. Just an idea.

What CEL's do you have, this can help a lot in helping diagnos your problem.

You can also go a little leaner on your A:F, it's NA not turbo.

My first suggestion it to tear down the timing and retime your engine, re-index the cams from the block being decked/head being milled. Make sure she's dead on and go from there.



Exile Racing Technologies: http://www.exileracing.com
Assasin of Joy

I did a comp test a bit ago for another reason than tuning, however, the numbers were pretty damn high. My pressure gage only went to 300psi, and when the needle bounced up to nearly 300psi I quit because I didn't want to break the gage... LOL. I am confident that I can get over the 300psi the gage will read to.

As for tuning the cams and such. The car runs great where they are set at. Like I said I have already tuned this stuff on the dyno, and get very positive results. I got an average of 23hp gain across the board when I tuned 'er on the dyno.


As for the GT-S making 171whp, I doubt it, seriously seeing as how they only put out 180 at the crank. That 136 sounds more realistic, or maybe the 140whp one. In any case, I don't know the dyno brand, and I can't hop around, there are not that many dyno's around here, plus dyno time is expensive. The cost of the dyno just to save some pride isn't really worth it to me. I will just admit the numbers and juice 'er up.

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

300 psi on a compression test????? how are you doing the test. that seems crazy high.

If you are leaning out the fuel 32% with the SAFC, you are advancing the timing and if i remember reading correctly on one of the turbo guys setup, with the map not at a certain voltage, the car goes back into closed loop. i could be wrong.

with that crazy high compression, the safc possibly making it lean (closed loop) and the timing being advanced (safc again) it could very well be detonation. you need to see how much they took of the head and double check your piston part numbers.

who ported your head. with improper head porting, it can really mess up a head and not actually help make power until a RPM band that you wont be operating in. if it was just a slight cleanup and removing rough surfaces and not a drastic reshaping then you should be ok. porting is an art and a skill that must be learned properly. not any joe schmoe can do it right.

sounds like you need to do some double checking of what you actually have and then look into a megasquirt to control everything.

Brian

Brian Bucar

www.squirrelpf.com - Dedicated to making cars perform.

Racing is an addiction that can only be cured by poverty.

88 Plymouth Reliant K 2.5L Intercooled Turbo - 5-Speed
89 Dodge Aries K 2.5L N/A Beater
88 Plymouth Reliant V6 Project

Currently helping ForceFed420A finish his custom 97 Eclipse Megasquirt Turbo project.

300 psi is not uncommon on high compression engines

I am fairly certain that I got the 10.5:1, however, I will probably never know how much the head was decked. As for the port and polish, the person that did it attended a school in cali, and from other work I have seen does a great job, hence, I picked them to do the porting. So as far as that goes, i think that it was done right. I have a timing retard module that came in today that I am going to install to try and get rid of that damn detonation, hopefully it works, and maybe I can scam a few more ponies out of it. But to make a long story short, these numbers are about as good as I or anyone else is going to get with all motor from this engine. If we want power, juice it or turbo it.
I will post the new numbers once I juice er up, I am probably going to hit the 210-220 whp mark with the juice. I am not gunna do more than a 75 shot.
anyhow, thanks for on the input, keep it coming.

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

~Luke
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1969 Cougar - 11.91 - 380HP
2007 GSXR 750
1999 OZ - SOLD - 15.26 NA - 14.71 on 75 shot

I realize that.... just slappin' numbers around...
I will keep the tuning effort going. The next big thing for me now is hooking up my timing retard module and playing with the timing.

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

ok, got the Timing Retard Controller hooked up, and as of now I am retarding the timing about 5 degrees. I pulled it back that much because that is what it took to get rid of the majority of the knock. Unfortunately I can feel a significant loss of power. Not only that, but the fuel is way rich again. Did the fuel richen up due to me retarding the timing? And if so, am I going to be fighting a never ending battle... leaning the fuel, then having to retard the timing, then leaning out again due to the retarding of the timing, and so on?
Maybe I should just swap the standard size injectors back in there...
any sudgestions??

Thanks for the help!!

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

~Luke
Facebook
1969 Cougar - 11.91 - 380HP
2007 GSXR 750
1999 OZ - SOLD - 15.26 NA - 14.71 on 75 shot

What do you think about swapping out the injectors for smaller ones? Would that make a significant difference? In my opinion, right now my biggest problem is getting the fuel right, it is way to rich, so swapping the injectors should get me there the easiest, right?

Keep the help coming, I really appreciate it.

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

Yes, drop the stock injectors back in and tune from there.

I still want to know what Check engine codes you are getting. The problem may lie there.



Exile Racing Technologies: http://www.exileracing.com
Assasin of Joy

OK, Got the CEL codes read today,
here we go:

P1390
Octane Adjust Pin Out of Self Test Range

P0172
The PCM has determined that during testing, the fuel system for bank 1 was too rich. (Bank 1 identifies the location of cylinder 1, while bank 2 indentifies the cylinders on the opposite bank)

The person at auto zone looked up the codes in his book and said it was one of the following:
MAP Sensor, Oxygen Sensor, and/ or Ignition Misfire

Ok, so now I ask, WTF does the first code I put up there mean, and given that my air/fuel gage reads out normally, does that mean that my O2 sensor is ok?
Is the bad MAP possibly caused by the S-AFC II? I have driven on a backup map, and let me tell you, you will know what it is immediately, so I think that my MAP is ok.
That last one, ignition misfire has got me stumped however. I assume that is from the engine knock, causing it to throw that code.

So, given these check engine lights, what more advice can I get?

Thanks for the help, keep it coming.

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

The first one is the knock sensor is detecting knock.
The second one is an oxygen sensor detecting rich condition

First things first put your stock injectors back in. This should clear the rich condition and in retuning with the S-AFC you could get rid of the knock.

Also make sure your splices with the S-AFC are good and solid.



Exile Racing Technologies: http://www.exileracing.com
Assasin of Joy

One thing I don't really understand, is how do the fuel injectors or the fact that there is too much fuel contribute the the knocking?
I understand it to be the richer the better in the case of preventing your car from knocking... just my assumption... I do agree that hopefully this solves my problem.
I do intend to change the fuel injectors however, I just need to find the time. Injectors are, unfortunately, not an easy task on our cars...

Would you say that 19lb. injectors would do the trick? or still too big?

Also, do you think that with the proper fuel injectors, I will be more apt to hit that 160whp mark? Concidering the knock and such will be gone...?

Thanks for the input, keep it coming!

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

So what do you think the knocking is coming from if it isn't due to the fuel being too rich, or something to do with the fuel injectors?

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

-"Easy Mac"
05 Mazda RX-8 (RR8 #88)
99 Eclipse RS 398whp & 372lb-ft

I have the injectors on there way, 19lb'ers. They are the stock size, so that is going to deal with that running rich problem. I just hope that it also fixes the knock.

I have a Timing Retard Control module, and I can retard the timing to get rid of the knock. With the setup I have now, I have to retard it nearly 10 degrees to get rid of the knock.

When I replace the injectors, IF it still knocks, what things are there that I can do to adjust / reset the timing in order to correct the problem??

I am about 99% sure the cams are alligned correctly, so, other than that, how am I suppost to correct the malfunction in the timing?

Thanks for the help!!


BTW: Going to shoot the juice to 'er as soon as I get these little kinks out of the way, but I want to make sure she is in tip top shape before I abuse the crap out of her.

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

______________________________

Ryan
IRyanHester@Hotmail.com

'03 Mazda 6s

One of the problems that people have noticed is that when you lean the MAP signal out too much, the ECU will start to advance the timing. How much timing is it currently seeing? If you're seeing signifigantly more timing than what people normally see at WOT(around 17 degrees), then switching to the smaller injectors and flattening the MAP modifications may help the problem some. 10 degrees is alot to be pulling just to get rid of knock.

I'm really having a hard time swallowing the fact that you don't know what you're static compression ratio is. A good machine shop will tag the head with any milling information. That way if it ever comes back to the shop then they know how far out of stock it is. I'd call the shop and ask them if they have any records on the work. As far as it being 10.5 or 12.5 pistons, well thats troublesome too. Do you have the packaging that the pistons came with? There should have been some information about them in the box.


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
15.7 @ 87.9mph
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

Concidering that I leaned the fuel out about 40% total, that could very well be the problem.
As far as how much the head was milled, I can contact the shop, but no markings were made, I also believe that the pistons are in fact 10.5:1.
I assume that the timing was probably advanced quite a bit due to the grossly oversized injectors. Hopefully with the injector change out, my problems will be solved. The new injectors should be here today, so I should be able to get them in sometime over the weekend.

I appreciate your help, I will post the results of the injector swap as soon as I get them in and a test drive out of the way.

Thanks again!

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

got the 19lb. injectors in. Problem still persists...
what do I do???

I am extremely lost. I can't figure out how to get rid of this damn knocking. I know that I shouldn't be knocking, but I am still knocking.

Do you think that it could have something to do with the computer??

Here is one thing that I have been thinking of:
To get rid of the knocking, I retard the timing manually with my little TRC module. Now, when I do that, I lose lots of power, and get the rest of the downfalls of retarding timing.
So if the timing is what is messed up, and the timing is suppost to be where I retard it to, that doesn't make any since. Then the car would basically always run like crap if the timing were where it needed to be in order for the knocking to go away.
So, in that sence, does it me that it is something other than timing?
If so, what the heck could it be?

I really doubt that it is coming from detonation, due the compression not being quite high enough to be in any danger of detonation.
So, then maybe it is misfiring, but why, and how would I correct it?

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

I think others have told you this before, but double check your timing and cam gear related items. I don't think your problem is in the injectors as you swapped to a smaller set.

Or better yet, set everythign back to stock configuration and start from there.

-K-

I have done that time, and time again, nothing works. Any other sudgestions?

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

I have had growing concerns about any kind of fuckering around with the exhaust cam timing. I keep finding myself liking the idea of messing around with a PCM timing reference less and less. Try setting that back to stock, and zero out the AFC. Start from scratch, basically.

Did you compensate for the marks being off on the AEM cam gears? Im willing to bet the port work on the head and intake are excessive. You said your intake runners are bored, That alone is too much on an na 420a. All they need is a little minor work and some polishing. Anything more then that on a setup like yours will cause you to loose velocity. Also I would say your combination of bigger cams and larger valves are making things worse on your setup, If you had a stroker crank I could see doing both. Bigger is not always better, having a setup that works together will give you higher gains.

ASE certified master auto technician

I can tell u exactly whey I doubt a 420a will ever get 200whp in the eclipse platform. CAMS!!!! crane 18s and crower stage 3s will get u close but not close enough. Neons have reached the 200whp range already, but look at their cam options, they can get crane 22s and 24s!

i had a killer NA setup in my talon, I sold the car because I couldnt get it where I wanted to get it.

too mack good power the 420a needs big cams, head work, custom intake manifold, a nice header, and a custom ecu. With big cams, the stock ecu wont be able to hold the idle.

When you did your all motor rebuild what compression did you use? Was it similar to mine? And if so, did you have problems with detonation?


All the timing marks line up perfect. I checked it with the crank pulley off, etc. etc.

The cams timing marks are not PERFECTLY lined up, but due to them already being set a tuned degrees due to prior tuning that is why, but they are VERY close, so that cannot be the problem.

I thought maybe my plugs were getting too hot and causing pre-ignition detonation, but I swapped them for the coldest ones that eccell has to offer, and I still have the same problem.

I am going to start playing with the cam gears I think.
I will retard them both about 4 degrees and see how that does, and then do the opposite. Maybe I can learn a little something from how the car responds.

Last effort is going to be switching to race gas. See if it detonates on that.
If not, then my timing is in fact where it should be, and my problem is from detonation. Either from too high of compression, or something in the cylinder is getting hot enough to light the fuel under compression before the spark gets there.

Keep the input coming, but seriously, don't say check the timing anymore please, I have heard it one thousand times, and I have checked it a thousand times. IT IS DEAD NUTS ON.

I do enjoy all the support, so keep it coming!

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

i dont think your motor is detonating at all. I think it just misfiring from too much fuel. Stock injectors will handle any NA setup currently out there for the motor.

Detonation is more like pinging or sometime it sounds like a rapid paintball gun fire. Misfire is sputtering and a severe loss of power.

First put in the stock injectors, set the afc at 0, and get some bigger cams. If u want anything above 170whp get crane 18s or crower stage 3.

My setup was:
Crane 16 w\springs, oversize valves, port work, head milled, I\H\E, afx ecu and pulley. The car was still slow. It was decently quick when i slapped a 75 shot on it though

It sounds exactly like the detonation you described... the whole machine gun firing thing, not sluggish or sputtery at all. Sound like a rapid pinging, which is why I keep saying that it is detonation.

The spark plugs are brand new, just put them in like 50 miles ago. I do have an ignition amp. It is the Crane ignition. The recommended gap with that system is .045, and that is what I gapped the plugs to.

The plugs are all the coldest heat range possible. Everything in the block is brand new. I think that somehow, maybe I got 12.5:1 vice 10.5:1. Because I really don't think that my head was milled enough to raise my compression over the detonation threshold, and I can't figure any other reason that would cause my car to be detonating other than the high compression factor.

I am going to put a crap load of octane boost in her and see what that does, and of course keep playing with the cam timing, however, like I said. It is not sluggish or sputtery, it is the rattle can machine gun firing noise... detonation.

Keep the input coming, I do appreciate it. One thing I don't understand however is, how can motorcycles run like 13:1 on pump gas but I can't even run 11:1 in a car? I have heard other cars tuned to run high compression on pump gas, what is their secret?

Thanx guys!

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

Oh, one more thing...

I replaced the injectors, and she still runs a little rich, and this is why I think it is...

I am knocking pretty bad at times, so the car richins my mixture to protect itself. So in turn I lean out my car, it detonates more, then richens back up, so effectively, I am fighting a never ending battle with the fuel mix until I can get the knocking to go away. Basically with the knocking, my car is going to make itself run rich.
So, I don't think that I should have put the stockers back in, in fact, I would say I wasted 160 dollars on them. Because I still have the same problem due to the detonation.

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

you have too many piggy back systems. remove all piggy backs, safc, crane ignition, and any others. and see how it runs.

I hate to say it, but Cordell may have a point. As a last resort anyway you may have to start unpiggybacking the car. I don't think you have too many piggybacks, but you may have to start unhooking to rule them out. Don't do that yet though.

Someone suggested that the AEM gears need to be marked because they are incorrect. Have you done this? Its very important that you know exactly where 0 is on your exhaust cam especially, cause before anything - you want to set the exhaust cam to 0. The reason for this is the cam position sensor runs off the exhaust cam gear. Some poeople have had problems running with it at anything other than 0. But make sure the mark is correct before you do that even. So thats the first thing I would do.

The next thing I would do is play with the plug gap. Ok, so you're running at a recommended gap. Why don't you try changing it. I'd probably try running an incrementally smaller gap and see how it reacts. Thats an easy thing to do, and its free as well.

Another thing that you can do is tell us when its detonating. Is it only at WOT? Is it doing it at idle only? Does it start at a particular RPM and go all the way to redline? Does it only happen between a certain RPM range? That kind of stuff. All I've heard so far is that its detonating, but not the conditions.


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
15.7 @ 87.9mph
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

Ok, about the un-piggybacking part...
I had the S-AFC in before the rebuild, and it worked fine then, so I am going to go ahead and rule that out, and save myself the trouble of unhooking it. Also, I was detonating before I installed the crane ignition, so I am gunna have to say that isn't the problem either. Other than that, there are really no other piggy backs.

As for the detonation,
It comes in about 2700rpm and hangs out until around 4000 rpm.
If I lean out the fuel mix it will stay sometimes until redline. And it doesn't really matter what throttle position, it is more based on the RPM. However, and this is kinda hard to explain. At certain loads/gears/ rpms/ etc., it takes a different throttle position. For instance, sometimes if it is detonating while I am trying to just gain a little speed say 45% throttle, I will give it 100% throttle and the detonating goes away. But in other gears at different speeds, etc. if I come off the throttle then it goes away.
I hope I didn't confuse anyone, and if there is something more specific you would like to know, I can tell you.

One thing I am not sure of at this point is how to find the 'exact' 0 point on the exhaust cam.

I can see when the timing marks are lined up, but for as far as 'exact' 0 goes... that is gunna be tricky. I will give it my best shot though.

I really appreciate the help, and if you all still sudgest getting rid of the piggy backs, then I will, I just think that in my opinion that can be ruled out.

thanks again!

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

i still think u are running rich. did u ever fix the check engine light?

If you read up a bit, in one of my posts, I said why I believe my car is running rich, which it is...
The knocking causes my car to retard it's timing, which in turn, richens the fuel. Basically, when I fix the knock, then I will simultaneously fix the fuel problem. And yes, my CEL is still in, cuz I still have the knock problem.

See if this makes any sence to you, this is my new theory on the detonation, and why it might be doing it:

I have total seal piston rings. These rings specifically say to disable the PCV valve in order to prevent sucking oil from the head of your car causing you to burn oil. This is due to the way the total seal rings completely seal in the cylinder.
I did disable my PCV valve, and replaced the lines with breathers. All that did was give a place for oil to build up in and drip out. Instead of sucking in oil, my car was shooting it out the breathers, also I didn't feel like there was adequate ventilation of the crankcase. So I re-installed the PCV valve, but I left the line off that connects from the intake pipe to the driver's side of the crankcase.
To try and make this short, I am sucking in oil, in large amounts to say it lightly. I would say I burn about 1 qt of oil for every 2 tanks of gas, literally.
I think that those little oil dropplets getting into my cylinders under compression are what might be causing the detonation. Does that make sense to anyone else?
If so, any sudgestions on how to adequately ventilate the crankcase, without sucking a bunch of oil in?
One idea I had was to get a more mild PCV valve, one off an old big block what would shut at about 17" of vacuum, vice ours.

I am completely open to sudgestions, so keep droppin' 'em on me.

Oh, still waiting for a good sudgestion for getting the exhaust cam to the 'exact' zero point.

Thanks for your help!

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

install a catchcan maybe??

how many codes are on the ecu??

I would turn the afc OFF
turn the crane ignition OFF
pull the fuse to the ecu and let the ecu reset
put fuse back in, and start car and let it idle for a minute

then take it for a test drive.

The codes are the same as the two I posted above.
The knocking one, and the one that means I am running rich. That is it.

I can't really turn the crane ignition OFF, or the AFC OFF. I would have to completely undo the splicing and wiring, etc. and re-wire back to stock, and then vice versa to put it all back.

Did you read my oil theory?
What do you think about that, could it be causing the knocking?

For the catch can, do I just route a seperate line back to the oil pan to drain the oil collected? -- Never had turbo, => never used a catchcan

I am going to play with the exaust cam timing this weekend when I get time, and see what that does.
Also going to disconnect the pcv valve temporarily to see if my oil theory is correct. I hope it is, cuz that would be a super easy fix comparitively.

Thanks for the support!

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

Goto the paint store and but a couple gallons of toluene, Fill up the tank with premium.

15L of toluene and 45L of 92 octane should yeild about a 98.

You should NOT be detonating then with the higher octane.

If it works then you KNOW that it IS detonation.

just a suggestion.

I eat emo kids for breakfast

1995 Eagle Talon (SOLD)
72' SuperBeetle
72' Standard Beetle
56' Deluxe Beetle

that is what I entend to do, I just want to try and get it to go away before I do that. I don't want to have to fill up with $5.00 per gallon gas every time I go to the pump just because my compression is too high, so if I can get rid of it without having to run race fuel, then that would be much more preferred.
On the other hand, if that is the only thing left, and that is the only way to get rid of it, then that is what I am going to have to do.
Then, sometime in the near future, I would probably replace my 10.5:1's for some 8.5:1's and boost the bitch.
In reality, that is what I wish I would have done the entire time. Then I wouldn't be having this problem.

Thanks for the comments,

-Brandon

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

A really easy way to see if your cam gears are marked correctly, is to put them on top of a set of stock cam gears. Match up the center dowel pin slot on each gear, then find the stock gear timing mark on the outer edge of the cam gear. Mark that spot on the adjustable cam gear. If your head was milled .004" or more, then it will make your timing gears off approx 1/4 to 1/2 tooth off. 1/2 tooth off equals about 5 cam degrees. You really need to datalog your car too see what your timing is, and other engine performace variables, and sensor readings..If you are truly timed perfectly, and 10.5:1 compression ratio, then stock timing advance with 93 should absolutly not knock at all.. Also, almost 300psi is ALOT of compression pressure. Stock @ 9.6:1 is roughly around 220. Raising compresson ratio only 9 tenths will NOT give that much compression pressure increase. Either you have a mechanical timing issue, or you have a higher compression ratio. Considerably higher...I really think you have 12.5:1.. The ease at which the motor knocks, and the amount of compression pressure you have..just makes sense to me

13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)
My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

That is what it has come down to for me as well,

This is what I think happened:

HowellAutomotive sent me the wrong pistons. I ordered 10.5:1, but I have to have 12.5:1 given the symptoms. Either that or the pistons were not made for the longer rods that I have, but I don't think that is the case. I think I just got the wrong fucking pistons, which really pisses me off, however. Now that I have to replace them anyway, I am going to go ahead and turbo. I wasn't too impressed with the performance after the upgrades.
One thing that does have me confused however is that cylinder 1's compression is only about 225 while the others are all around 285. I wonder if I got one 10.5:1 piston and the others are 12.5:1. Given howell's record, I would not put it past them.

One more thing that urks me, is that I might have to go back to them to get the 8.5:1 pistons...

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

Never said that they were machined wrong. The were definetely machined right. I am driving the car now, so they obviously work, the thing is I think that I have 1 piston that is 10.5:1, and the rest are 12.5:1. I got screwed over somehow. I just can't explain the detonation or the difference in compression between the cylinders any other way than this. If anyone out there can come up with a better senerio let me know, PLEASE!
I have had numerous problems with howell trying to get the parts, little own get the right parts. I had to send a number of items back, and request new items because I had the wrong parts. I don't put it past them to completely fuck up my piston order as well.
Needless to say, there are many people on this site who will we agree with my on howell's performance record. I ordered 10.5:1, no way are at least 3 of those pistons 10.5:1, not with that kind of compression. Now I have to pull my motor, AGAIN, put new pistons in, and just the thought of doing that crap all over again is annoying as all hell.
Moral of the story, NEVER BUY ANYTHING OF IMPORTANCE FROM HOWELL. GET IT FROM SOMEONE YOU CAN TRUST. AND BELIEVE ME, HOWELL IS NOT TO BE TRUSTED WITH ANY BIG ORDER.
I wouldn't buy anything more than shop towells from them at this point. And they would probably fuck that order up as well, I might get a B.O.V. or some shit instead of shop towells.

Anyhoo, I don't expect too many people out there wish to listen to me complain all day, but I have determined the cause of the detonation, and I appreciate everyone's input along the way.
BTW: HAH! Told you the timing was correct!

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

umm I might be completely stupid, but wouldn't you notice the difference from one piston to the other 3 =?

What does your piston spec sheet say? Have you bothered to call them up? This may be dumb but maybe you should get some evidence ... maybe pull the head off and take a look at the top of the piston tops. There should be a noticeable difference between the pistons. I understand that you're upset but there can be a ton of reasons why you're getting the problems you're having. It just doesn't make sense that the pistons would get mixed/matched.

-"Easy Mac"
05 Mazda RX-8 (RR8 #88)
99 Eclipse RS 398whp & 372lb-ft

I am in the process of pulling the motor, AGAIN, but it is going to be slow as I don't have much time to get it done right now.

I know it sounds rediculous, but do you have a better excuse?

Another thing, no matter if the pistons are the same or if there is a different one, nothing disputes the fact that my compression is way too high, and it is due to having the wrong pistons.

There is either one of two things:

I got 12.5:1 pistons, or I have 10.5:1 pistons that are designed to go on the stock rod.
During the rebuild I upgraded to the long rod. And howell knew this as I orded everything as a 'kit'.

So, reguardless of the pistons being different or not the above remains true, and I have to lower compression if I am going to continue driving my car without completely ruining the motor.

On the brighter side;
I am going to just say fuck it, and slap a turbo on the beotch, which I think a lot of 2gnt'ers will be happy to hear.



On that note, I want to use a water cooled turbo. Anyone have any recommendations?

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

boooo


I'd be really happy to hear a N/A 2gNT DSM stay side-by side with a turbo 2gNT side-by-side to a Spraying 2gNT

<--This is our god... god decides our fate. We shall not upset our god. God can and will ruin our lives if we were to upset him.

OBX 4-1 Ceramic Coated Headder, EGR Block-off kit, Howell 30% Underdrive pulley, EBay Cold-Air Intake, Holley Air Mass CatBack Exhaust System: 2.5" pipe w/ 5" tip

That wouldn't happen even with a 2.4 swap. That is why I am just going to bit the bullet and go turbo.

BTW:

I did another compression check, all cylinders are the same now. I think that the rings just didn't seal all the way when I did the first check.
They are all above 300psi. I can't read any higher than that on the gage.

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

Just some food for thought. Reccently I did a compression test on a friends 94 Civic HB with a H22a swap. Stock compression is around 10.2:1 I believe. On the compression tester gauge it was reading out about 240-250 psi per cylinder and this is a motor with about 80,000 hard miles on it. A fresh 10.5:1 motor sounds about right at 285ish psi.

On another note I don't believe you will ever see 200whp with that set-up. You need serious aggressive cams and some really good port work. Check out some Honda sights for info on basic all motor set-ups. The reason they can do it is that the VTEC cams have a very aggressive cam profile stock. Maybe even more than the stg 3's or 0018's. That is where you are going to make the power.

As for the Celica GTS. They put down around 165 whp stock. Check out Sport Compact Car April 02 issue. There is no reason that you can't do it in a 420a with some great cams.

I don't know what the knocking is but motorcycles have a much better combustion chamber design for the higher cr on pump gas.

Good luck and I am looking forward to seeing a 2gnt with 200+ whp all motor!

I would just be happy to see the poster's sig reduced to something less than it's current 500 words.

Ok, got the motor out, broke the thing in half (figure of speech), anyhow, and cc'd the motor. I am getting 13.25:1 for my final compression ratio.
So I guess that explains the detonation problem...

The gage I used to do the compression check only goes to 300psi, and I stopped turning the car over when it got close to that so I didn't brake it or something, but in my frustration I just let it pump over to see what compression could get to. Lets just say that the needle went back to 0. well over 300psi was in each cylinder, just don't know exactly how much more. I would venture to say about 320psi.

The pistons turned out to actually be 12.5:1, so I got fucked by howell. That in combination with the machine work got my compression way up there.

The 8.8:1's are going in soon, and shortly after I should have the car back up and running.
I think that I am going to shoot some nitrous instead of boost. Mainly for cost reasons.

I also plan on a new set of cams this time round as well.

oh, quit hating on the sig. One day you to will have enough mods to make a list that long...

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

Well sounds like you solved it. Detonation and power don't go hand in hand.

Did yuo take into acount the head gasket thickness when you ran your compression calcs?

Exile Racing Technologies
http://www.exileracing.com
Go that way, really fast, if something gets in your way... turn.

How does shooting nitrous on a low compression motor with bigger cams equal to less cost overall to boosting it?

yes, i took into account head gasket thickness in my calculations.


also, I plan to keep the cams I have as this IS a daily driver, and god knows cams like that don't make for good idle. The extra power would be nice, however, it really won't be that much more. I say MAYBE 10 whp. I think that would be pushing it as well. Plus I didn't expect having to drop the cash to basically re-do my bottom end. That sort of put a damper on my pocket book.

Lastly, I will probably just be juicing as an intermediate step. Just until I can save some cash to boost it. I also want a water cooled set-up which I am having a hard time finding. Turbonetic's will upgrade any turbo for just $40.00, but getting star to include it in their kit is a different story.

I still plan to push about 160whp with the lower compression now that the car will be running right. In some of the first posts I talked about a ticking sound from the cam gear area. Well, got that solved, the pistons were coming into slight contact with the head.... yes, I know crazy.
So basically a lot of shit was going wrong, robbing me of power, so I expect to get considerably more with it running right, even without the higher compression.

I do appreciate all of your input, and I have learned a great deal through this whole experience, so if any of you have any questions I think that I have damn near become a regional expert on our motors at this point.

Thanks a lot!


oh, don't buy from howell. <-- I think I might add that to my sig, what do you think.. LOL

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

I noticed in your mods list you had a "full race port, oversized valves and bored runners and TB". Exactly how much did you have ported out? How big are the valves? Also, what do you rev to? Alot of people get carried away with porting and end up with ports so big they wont start flowing until the 6000rpm range. Bigger isnt always better. Velocity is key in N/A engines. Its restriction to flow that creates velocity. Thats why CAI's are different diameters at different lengths. The name for that design is called the Helmholtz chamber. Its all hydraulics. Hogging out the intake ports will cause you to lose next to all port velocity at acceptable streetable RPM's (less than 7000rpms). Unless you are able to supply the ports with enough volume to make them useful, ie a turbocharger. Try blowing into a straw hard, the air coming out is sped up due to the restriction, and you still get the full volume out of the end. Now try blowing into a piece of 3inch pipe, you get very little at the end. If you supplied the pipe with enough volume, you'd get great velocity and flow, but you have to have that volume to do so. With a small displacement N/A engine relying on the atmosphere to fill its cylinders, huge intake ports without some crazy race spec cams, a 10000RPM redline and some careful 3rd wave exhaust tuning, will do nothing but hurt performance. Same goes for huge valves and gigantic throttlebodies. You're really killing your VE and not filling the cylinders as they should be, the only thing probably saving you from making less than stock power is the high compression. Hell, 4G63's with 1mm oversized valves making 350WHP lose power until the boost gets up there in the higher RPM's. Seeing how 420a engines can support enough flow to make 500+HP with a turbo, they flow plenty enough for street N/A applications. A raceport for anything less than a full fledge race engine is simply overkill and wont perform in real world condidions, as you have seen. I'd go with stock ports, possibly some extrudehoning, and a good clean polishing. I'd bet you'd make an assload more power.

91 awd: 60-1, 880's, E-Prom, etc.
93 awd: JDM 6 bolt, K&N, full exhaust, Wally 255, otherwise stock.

R.I.P. the original "Factory Freak"
15.5's with short ram and catback only
1996 RS 5-speed

I don't have anything EXTREME, for the port.
I opened up the ports about 1~2mm not much. along with 1mm oversized valves.

the TB is not bored, same as stock.

overbored .020"

I believe that for my application that I didn't 'overdo' the porting. I am aware of porting too much, and how it can actually kill power.
Another thing is that I plan to turbo in the future, just don't have the cash right now.
Also, I switched those pistons for 8.6:1's. If you read the whole thread you will see why.

Because there are no after market computers for 98+ without going stand alone, I am basically using the stock ecu => still redlining at 7200rpm. With the internals I have, and the machine work, balancing etc. I can go to ~9000rpm safely. I just can't due to the computer which kinda pisses me off... but what can you do?

Not too much of a loss however, due to the cam I have really not being to effecient at that rpm. I actually start losing power above about 6500. the cam effecting range is 2000-6800rpm. So reving much higher than that is really not useful unless I change the cam out, which I don't plan on doing.

I am going to turbo, and leave it at that.

thanks for the input!

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

Well, I assumed it was aggressive when you said full race port. Also, the only reason I replied to this thread was because you were complaining of not making any power on a N/A setup. Which, if you were going fully N/A, your mods wouldnt be the best way to achieve maximum HP. But, since you're going turbo, more power to you. I'm sure she'll be a beast Also, it says right there in your signature that you have a bored TB.

91 awd: 60-1, 880's, E-Prom, etc.
93 awd: JDM 6 bolt, K&N, full exhaust, Wally 255, otherwise stock.

R.I.P. the original "Factory Freak"
15.5's with short ram and catback only
1996 RS 5-speed

I know, I have tried to change it, but something keeps messing up when I do. I have tried to shorten my signature about 1000 times because people keep complaining about it.

Sorry for the misconception.

I oringinally planned to bore it out, but then I read up on a few things, basically learning what you just said.

you should read my whole thread, you will see why I was not making any power NA.
Now that I have gone low compression, I really won't make much power, but that is going to be ok, because I can boost the hell out of it with the built bottom end that I have in her.

thanks for the input!

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

I completely erased my signature before that last post, and all the same stuff still comes up. I don't get it...

anyhoo, no you know, I don't have a bored TB.

Built block.
Refinished head.
Tuned suspension.
TURBO.

send me your password and I'll change it for you

~Luke
Facebook
1969 Cougar - 11.91 - 380HP
2007 GSXR 750
1999 OZ - SOLD - 15.26 NA - 14.71 on 75 shot

changed my password to 1234 for now.

if you could fix it I would love you.... well... anyhoo..

just put something like:
too much to list...
or some crap like that.


AEM Cold Air w/ Bypass
AEM Adjustable Cam Gears (tuned)
Lightened UDP
Aluminum Stage I SPEC Clutch
S-AFC II (tuned)
Crane Stage II Nitrous Cams
SBI Lifters / Lash Adjusters
SBI Rocker Arms
Complete Race Port and Polish
1mm Oversized Stainless Valves
Crane Valve Springs
FELPRO Gasket Set
Bored Intake Runners, Manifold, TB
JE 10.5:1 Pistons
Long Rod Kit
Clevitte 77 Bearing Kit
Balanced Rotating Assymbly
Greddy Headers
Greddy Cat-Back
Front and Rear Sway Bar
Front Strut Bar
TIEN SS Coilover set
Camber Kit
Brembo Drilled and Slotted Rotors
Enkei Bortex 17" Rims (16.1lbs each)
Phantom Grip LSD
Bored .020
Total Seal Ring Set
Screamin' Demon Coil
Crane Hi-6 CDI2 Ignition System w/ module
Crane 8.5mm Firewire
24lb Fuel Injectors

what is the MSnS? And where do you get one?



AEM Cold Air
AEM Adjustable Cam Gears (tuned)
Lightened UDP
Aluminum Stage I SPEC Clutch
S-AFC II (tuned)
Crane Stage II Nitrous Cams
SBI Lifters / Lash Adjusters
SBI Rocker Arms
Complete Port and Polish
1mm Oversized Stainless Valves
Crane Valve Springs
Victory Gasket Set
Bored Intake Runners, Manifold
JE 8.6:1 Pistons
Long Rod Kit
Clevitte 77 Bearing Kit
Balanced Rotating Assymbly
Greddy Headers
Greddy Cat-Back
Front and Rear Sway Bar
Front Strut Bar
TIEN SS Coilover set
Camber Kit Front and Rear
GSX Front Brake Upgrade
Brembo Drilled and Slotted Rotors
Enkei Bortex 17" Rims (16.1lbs each)
Phantom Grip LSD
Bored .020
Federal Mogal Ring Set
Screamin' Demon Coil
Crane Hi-6 CDI2 Ignition System w/ module
Crane 8.5mm Firewire
19lb Fuel Injectors

I realized what that ment a little bit after I posted that, anyhoo,... how extensive is the install, and how big is that damn MS box?

I also think that you will be suprized at when we do make our peak horse power. I have been to the dyno quite a bit, and even with cams that are suppost to increase my power band to ~6800, and all the polish work, etc. I still peak power around 5800 - 6000 rpm or so.
Make sure that the dyno you go to has an accurate rpm scale. Some don't, but those are the really crappy ones, also if the dyno technician doesn't know what he is doing, then he will fuck that part all up too.

Good luck however.

Oh, how much does one of those mega squirt thingy's cost?

Hahahaha. Nice link.

Originally posted by DR1665
bzoss - I finally got my MS. I'm going to try to have it controlling fuel by the end of this month and spark by the end of next. Should hopefully be making some news on the dyno sometime in July.

~Luke
Facebook
1969 Cougar - 11.91 - 380HP
2007 GSXR 750
1999 OZ - SOLD - 15.26 NA - 14.71 on 75 shot

Originally posted by DR1665
I definitely want to see the limits of all motor 2GNT tuning and I know I have the car that can do it. Just need my cam gears to show up here one of these days...

~Luke
Facebook
1969 Cougar - 11.91 - 380HP
2007 GSXR 750
1999 OZ - SOLD - 15.26 NA - 14.71 on 75 shot