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Subject: "Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition" Previous topic | Next topic
TeamXtremeRSMay-18-05 04:36 PM
Member since May 20th 2003
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#841, "Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"


          

Well I got the car running great up to 10-11 psi,but when i try to run 15psi, i get a BIG backfire out the exhaust and the car bucks hard, and at the same time, the MS resets. I thought it was from running too rich, but it's not. After some leaning out of the VE map at that pressure, it still did it. I then reconnected the stock ECU to run spark, and it ran just fine, like it always did at 15 psi. I'm wondering if the 3.5ms dwell time is not enough for a strong spark at that boost pressure. Someting just isn't right somewhere. Nate, did you ever scope the stock ignition trigger signals to see what the ECU is using for dwell time? It's either the dwell settings not right, or big tach dropout at that pressure for some reason. I don't understand why the MS resets either when it backfires..The Mitsu ignitor stays really cool at idle, which is why i think we could up the dwell a bit for a stronger spark. Anyone have any insight?


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)
My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  
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Replies to this topic
RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition, AdministratorStar Turbo Talon, May-18-05 04:54 PM, #1
RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition, TeamXtremeRS, May-18-05 05:03 PM, #2
      RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition, Global Ruler Of All ThingsDarkOne, May-19-05 05:30 AM, #3
      RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition, Teamner947, May-19-05 11:50 AM, #4
           RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition, TeamXtremeRS, May-19-05 03:00 PM, #5
                RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition, TeamXtremeRS, Jun-05-05 10:08 AM, #6
                     RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition, AdministratorStar Turbo Talon, Jun-05-05 10:50 AM, #7
                          RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition, Teamdougie2, Jun-05-05 01:21 PM, #8
                               RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition, TeamXtremeRS, Jun-05-05 01:34 PM, #9
                                    RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition, Teamdougie2, Jun-05-05 01:54 PM, #10
                                         RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition, AdministratorStar Turbo Talon, Jun-06-05 01:09 AM, #11
                                              RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition, TeamXtremeRS, Aug-01-05 04:02 PM, #12
                                                   RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition, Teamner947, Aug-01-05 04:55 PM, #13
                                                        RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition, TeamXtremeRS, Aug-01-05 05:30 PM, #14
                                                             RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition, Teamner947, Aug-02-05 09:42 AM, #15
                                                                  RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition, TeamXtremeRS, Aug-02-05 02:19 PM, #16
                                                                       RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition, rs-pssst, Aug-06-05 06:12 PM, #17
                                                                            RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition, TeamXtremeRS, Aug-07-05 12:07 PM, #18
                                                                            RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition, rs-pssst, Aug-08-05 07:51 PM, #19
                                                                                 RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition, TeamXtremeRS, Aug-09-05 02:57 AM, #20
                                                                            RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition, Teamner947, Aug-11-05 05:57 AM, #21

AdministratorStar Turbo TalonMay-18-05 04:54 PM
Member since Oct 21st 2003
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#842, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 0



          

I would adjust the dwell and try it. Kinda sounds like you are blowing the spark out. Perhaps the air is so compressed the spark is not strong enough.


Terry

  
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TeamXtremeRSMay-18-05 05:03 PM
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#843, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 1

          

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon
I would adjust the dwell and try it. Kinda sounds like you are blowing the spark out. Perhaps the air is so compressed the spark is not strong enough. Terry


Yeah, that's my first suspect anyway..Has anyone else running MS with igniton, run 15 psi yet with the current dwell settings? Or am I the first haha? Nate-Derek? I'll tell ya though, its freaky as hell when it happens at 15 pounds..def a new experience


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)
My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  
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Global Ruler Of All ThingsDarkOneMay-19-05 05:30 AM
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#844, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 2



          

Just increase the dwell until it either doesn't do it, or you reach a point where there's no more time to charge the coil in the given ignition window.

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Teamner947May-19-05 11:50 AM
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#849, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 2
 May-19-05 11:57 AM by ner947



          

I've been able to hit 200 kPa. It runs pretty good with 7.0/3.7/0.5, but the CEL flashes once or twice around peak torque. I don't get any big backfiring or anything, it almost feels like the ignition only drops out for 1 or 2 cylinders for a brief moment and then it's gone. The wideband don't really twitch at all, it reads rich for just a split second. I'm going to try measuring what the stock ECU uses for dwell once I get my scope fixed, right now I'm looking more into the minimum discharge period, I think 0.5 may be too conserative.

Also, I've been really working on my spark advance table since I'm finished with the VE table for the most part... Note the aggressive area in the "spool-up" bins.


2016 WRX STi Limited (current)
2001 A4 1.8tqms (donated)
1991 GVR4 #1933 (sold)
old.dsmregistry.com/detail.php?carid=218 (dismantled)

  
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TeamXtremeRSMay-19-05 03:00 PM
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#850, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 4

          

Well I posted over at msefi.com, and someone had mentioned that the overboost protection was kicking in the hard cut limiter. I checked that setting, and it was at 14.7 psi, which comes standard in the code. So I changed that to 21 psi, but i cant take the car out since its raining now. I'm wondering if that was the cause of the big backfire, as the ignition may be dropping spark from the hard cut limiter. Then all that unburnt fuel is igniting in the exhaust. The Mitsu ignitor stays super cool at idle, which is why i think we can up the dwell more. Hell, that module is mounted to the cylinder head on the 4g63, which gets pretty damn hot! I think that module should be pretty robust as far as heat is concerned. We really need to see what the stock ECU is doing with the igniton trigger signals though, on the scope. That would really solve the dwell issue. Nate, do you have any idea what the discharge period is supposed to be set to? I'm assuming that this is the time for a complete discharge of the coil after spark fires, but I wonder what it *should* be set to. That setting may def be having an effect.


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)
My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  
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TeamXtremeRSJun-05-05 10:08 AM
Member since May 20th 2003
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#930, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 5
 Jun-05-05 10:10 AM by XtremeRS

          

With a lot of MS user's help, we have figured out the issue. Some of us were using the stock ASD relay to switch on the MS main relay. Also, the ASD relay supplies power to the stock coilpack. When we run ignition with the MS, the stock ECU see's too many faults with everthing being disconnected from it, and will randomly reset itself, which quickly turns off and on, the ASD relay, which in turn, resets the MS, and cuts power(spark) from the coilpack for a brief second, causing the misfire/backfire/MS reset. The solution here is to switch on the main MS relay from the ignition switch's ignition wire, then use the MS's fuel pump relay output, to drive the stock fuel pump, and also send 12volts to the stock coilpack 12v feed wire. You want to wire the coilpack 12v to the fuel pump output, because that output switches off after a few seconds once the key is turned on, but not turned to crank. This keeps the power from the coilpack when doing code upgrades or just when keeping the key in the "run" position with the motor off. The fuel pump output on the MS can drive one relay, so i used that one relay to power up my fuel pump relay, and also send power to the coilpack..For this relay, it's best to grap constant 12v from the battery, fused of course.

The next issue to battle is the stock IAC valve, since it will surge rpm a bit when the MS is running both fuel and ignition. The stock ECU is freaking out, and opening/closing the IAC rapidly. We will have to figure out a fast idle control solution, and plug the IAC air bypass hole in the TB. Unplugging the IAC works good, but the main 2 problems with that is once in boost, the pressure can push in on the IAC pintle, and cause a higher idle. Also, you would have to keep your foot on the gas during cold warmup, to keep it idling.


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)
My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  
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AdministratorStar Turbo TalonJun-05-05 10:50 AM
Member since Oct 21st 2003
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#931, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 6



          

Ah so that was really it. very nice Discovery........ now i have to rewire my relay, joy!


Terry

  
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Teamdougie2Jun-05-05 01:21 PM
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#932, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 7
 Jun-05-05 01:24 PM by dougie2



          

Matt- The fielding PWM Idle code is coming along. http://msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=8564

I'm thinking we could manually set an idle speed by fabbing up an idle speed screw or adjusting the throttle plate. Then use the PWM Idle code and a Ford valve for warmup.


Doug

Xtreme Performance Services
Race Engines · Transmissions · Turbo Systems · EFI & Tuning · Fabrication · Welding
www.xtremefabrications.com

  
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TeamXtremeRSJun-05-05 01:34 PM
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#933, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 8
 Jun-05-05 01:36 PM by XtremeRS

          

Originally posted by dougie2
Matt- The fielding PWM Idle code is coming along. http://msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=8564 I'm thinking we could manually set an idle speed by fabbing up an idle speed screw or adjusting the throttle plate. Then use the PWM Idle code and a Ford valve for warmup.


Yep, i've been thinking along those lines also..Either that, or a solenoid valve that can let extra air into the the motor for a fast idle. A perfect place to ingest this air is the EVAP line, right on top of the TB. I took that line off while idling, and it raised rpm to like 1400, so that is plenty of air to fast idle with. Only problem is finding a valve that flows enough air. I've already tried using the EVAP solenoid, but it wont flow enough air..

Either way, we are going to have to remove and plug the stock IAC air bypass port, because at least on my car, the pintle gets pushed in when going into boost, and comimg back to an idle, the rpm is much greater. Not a big deal to fix though..

I've already drilled out the TB stop adjustment screw cover- its only a thin metal cap over it- and that reveals the torx head throttle stop bolt. I just turned that bolt in to raise the idle, then unplugged the IAC. But the higher idle after boost problem is still there, and cold start you have to keep your foot on the gas.


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)
My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  
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Teamdougie2Jun-05-05 01:54 PM
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#934, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 9
 Jun-05-05 01:55 PM by dougie2



          

You can actually remove the IAC and drill it out and tap it. Then you can use that for a fast idle solenoid/valve. This way you can leave the EVAP line connected or use that port for your BOV reference.


Doug

Xtreme Performance Services
Race Engines · Transmissions · Turbo Systems · EFI & Tuning · Fabrication · Welding
www.xtremefabrications.com

  
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AdministratorStar Turbo TalonJun-06-05 01:09 AM
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#936, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 10



          

if that doesnt work summit does sell the Fast idle solinoid. I cant remwember the part number but it is on MEFI, i will search for it. Cost is like 70.00 though. I like doug's idea

Terry

  
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TeamXtremeRSAug-01-05 04:02 PM
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#1136, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 11

          

As an update here, James over at msefi.com, who writes the "extra" code, said that the wasted spark dwell is not right yet..which is prob why i'm getting a weak spark/misfire. I've used an analog dwell meter, and also measured the current draw comparing the stock ECU doing ignition, and then the MS, and the MS is a noticable decrease in both dwell time, and current draw. Even with dwell maxed out, it still does not match the stock ECU signals.

So in order to be done with it, I ended up ordering a Crane HID2 ignition CDI box..These dont rely on dwell time, and i'll get the best spark i can possibly get with the stock coilpack. I think i'll end up driving the Crane with the mitsu ignitor, instead of off of the MS directly..I would think it would keep noise at bay anyway, and it's really how the Crane unit was designed to work. We will see how it works by mid week or by the end of the week after i get it in...


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)
My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  
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Teamner947Aug-01-05 04:55 PM
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#1137, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 12



          

Damn you gave in, heh. That's really weird how some setups work fine with the 4G63 transistor but yours is misfiring. I can't quite put my finger on it. A shot in the dark... Have you tried the MS 3.0 board yet?


2016 WRX STi Limited (current)
2001 A4 1.8tqms (donated)
1991 GVR4 #1933 (sold)
old.dsmregistry.com/detail.php?carid=218 (dismantled)

  
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TeamXtremeRSAug-01-05 05:30 PM
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#1138, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 13

          

Originally posted by ner947
Damn you gave in, heh. That's really weird how some setups work fine with the 4G63 transistor but yours is misfiring. I can't quite put my finger on it. A shot in the dark... Have you tried the MS 3.0 board yet?


Nope, havent tried the new board version yet..That will be a project for the winter i suppose, not in a huge hurry to upgrade, since the car is running really well now(fuel side anyway). I've always thought it was dwell related, as I can tell its a weak spark...James himself said dwell for 2 spark outputs is busted sooo.. If you think about it, there really are not that many people running wasted spark, plus forced induction with the MS..I mean, the spark is fine up to 10psi or so, which means those who are running this type of ignition setup, may never even see this type of issue. There are tons more people running distributors, and the ford EDIS setups, which dwell for both of those are fine..

One thing of interest though, I put my adjustable timing light on the car, and had the advance set at 15 degrees in MS, then set my light to 15 degrees on the knob, and the light fires right on both of the cam TDC marks even..so looks like timing is damn near right on to what you set it to in the MS..


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)
My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  
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Teamner947Aug-02-05 09:42 AM
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#1140, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 14



          

Originally posted by XtremeRSOne thing of interest though, I put my adjustable timing light on the car, and had the advance set at 15 degrees in MS, then set my light to 15 degrees on the knob, and the light fires right on both of the cam TDC marks even..so looks like timing is damn near right on to what you set it to in the MS..


I got similar results measuring ignition event on my scope overlaid with the crank angle sensor output... I set the MS fixed to 29 degrees and it lined right up on a noticeable crank angle tooth.


2016 WRX STi Limited (current)
2001 A4 1.8tqms (donated)
1991 GVR4 #1933 (sold)
old.dsmregistry.com/detail.php?carid=218 (dismantled)

  
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TeamXtremeRSAug-02-05 02:19 PM
Member since May 20th 2003
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#1141, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 15

          

Well I got the Crane unit hooked up, and it runs GREAT Spark is very strong now, and it pulls excellent at 15 psi. Unfortunately, it was an expensive solution, but i'll never have to worry about spark strength ever again. I was unsure what to set dwell at in MT, knowing that the Crane unit does not rely on dwell, so I just chose 3.0 ms, and the mitsu ignitor stays super cool as well. The mitsu ignitor seems to like firing the Crane ignition box. Sweet.


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)
My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  
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rs-pssstAug-06-05 06:12 PM
Member since Nov 13th 2004
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#1144, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 16
 Aug-06-05 06:13 PM by rs-pssst

          

I really wish it doesn't have to go aftermarket ignition. extremers, have you turned up the boost to 21 psi or higher yet on MS?

How is dougie2 running 26psi on MS without spark problems?

  
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TeamXtremeRSAug-07-05 12:07 PM
Member since May 20th 2003
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#1146, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 17

          

Originally posted by rs-pssst
I really wish it doesn't have to go aftermarket ignition. extremers, have you turned up the boost to 21 psi or higher yet on MS? How is dougie2 running 26psi on MS without spark problems?


I have NO idea why others can run more boost without any spark issues..I'm totally baffled by it. Maybe my stock coil is a bit weaker for some reason, or maybe there is less voltage at the coilpack for some reason..But anyway, the guy that writes the MS code had said that the dwell portion of the code for wasted spark was not working right, and has now released an updated code version to try out. I will get around to trying it out, but not for a while yet..The car's running awsome now at 15 psi though, so I'm not too inclined to keep changing code and settings..i've been doing that all this season ever since I got the damn MS up and running..Now it's August, and it's finally right..Oh well


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)
My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  
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rs-pssstAug-08-05 07:51 PM
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#1147, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 18

          

Got a question... Is 200-300rpm surge at idle a problem you have noticed with the mitsu ignitor or should I just play around with the timing numbers a bit more... I wasn't sure if that surge was from IAC freaking out.

  
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TeamXtremeRSAug-09-05 02:57 AM
Member since May 20th 2003
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#1148, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 19

          

Originally posted by rs-pssst
Got a question... Is 200-300rpm surge at idle a problem you have noticed with the mitsu ignitor or should I just play around with the timing numbers a bit more... I wasn't sure if that surge was from IAC freaking out.


It's mostly the IAC...For now, i've taken out my IAC, and tapped the pintle hole in the TB for a bolt, and used a washer on the bolt to seal up the hole where the IAC bolts on the TB. So basically, both holes are sealed with one bolt. The only major downfall to doing this is you have to keep your foot on the gas for a little bit as the motor warms up..after that it's fine. You just cant simply unplug the IAC, because boost will push in on the IAC pintle, and cause a high idle..


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)
My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  
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Teamner947Aug-11-05 05:57 AM
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#1157, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 17



          

Originally posted by rs-pssst
I really wish it doesn't have to go aftermarket ignition. extremers, have you turned up the boost to 21 psi or higher yet on MS? How is dougie2 running 26psi on MS without spark problems?


I've got mine running strongly around 230 kpa, which is around 19 psi. I've taken the 16G to around 240 kpa, but it didn't feel any faster. Time for a bigger turbo!


2016 WRX STi Limited (current)
2001 A4 1.8tqms (donated)
1991 GVR4 #1933 (sold)
old.dsmregistry.com/detail.php?carid=218 (dismantled)

  
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