First of all let me say that I was a GM Brat growing up so I have some personal interest in this. I just hate to see everything that my father work for his whole life disappear in a matter months. With the current real estate conditions in Michigan he stands to lose quite a bit if the pension he counts on disappears. That being said I believe that there has to be a massive reconstruction of the business models of the Big "2 1/2" and I defiantly think that UAW has got to either just go away or at the very least lose a majority of it's power. The UAW's day has passed and seems to hurt more than it help. Thanks for all your help in the 1930's and 40' but die now. So, in short I am totally on the fence on this one But I don't think the workers should suffer because of the decisions of the powers that be.

Constructive discussion is encouraged but no bashing of the workers and there "lazy" behavior. It happens, I know, but just think about this. If you dangle cheese in front of hungry mouse and don't expect the mouse to eat, you're crazy. In other words, what would you have done if you work there and could get away with things?

Poll result (17 votes) Bail Out Big 3 (2 votes) Vote Let them Hang (13 votes) Vote Other (A.K.A. Cheese) (2 votes) Vote (0 votes) Vote (0 votes) Vote (0 votes) Vote

To be honest I'm fed up pumping my tax money into failing businesses. As far as the Big 3 go, I say let them fall. Otherwise, we're basically rewarding poor management and business models, and encouraging them to do them same thing all over again. Let's face it, the vast majority of domestic cars are made with inferior parts and quality control. As for workers and pensions, the only thing certain in this world is that nothing is certain. To simply assume that money will always be available and nothing could possibly happen to a company is foolhardy, at best. While I do feel for them, it is always important to invest what money you have.

1998 Eclipse RS-T - Totaled 4/23/09 -
1998 Eclipse GST - Stroked 2.3l, HX40 fed: Build in progress
2010 Subaru Outback Limited

I hate hipsters.

I have a similar view Kent. I dont think the workers should lose everything because the management cant run a banana factory.

I think the govt should bail them out but take a seat on the board. Buy their way in if you will. Then cut all CEOs pay to no more than 100k. If you cant run a business responsibly then get out, we will do it for you.

There should also be very strict contingencies set in place and they must use the money to build higher quality, more efficient, at the same price (or lower) to the consumer!

Destroy the UAW.

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'95 Eclipse TurboGS (garage deco)
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I think it's horrible what this is going to do to so many middle-class families across the country (and around the world, no doubt), but I've already written my representatives asking they NOT support ANY further bailouts. When you've got the General burning through $2B/month in cash with less than $16B in reserves, handing them another $8B doesn't solve their problems. It only delays the inevitable.

Hell, GM has even stated that they need this bailout to get them through until 2010 when UAW contract negotiations take effect and they save some money. Translation: We don't have enough money to just piss away or otherwise throw onto the fire to get us through until we figure it will be convenient for us to consider being proactive about the situation.

If you or I don't make our car payment to GM, they will be right there to take it the fuck away from us. If you or I don't make our house payment, you know they will throw us right the fuck out on our asses. Why is it that, all of the sudden, we're supposed to tighten our belts even more to keep the biggest fucking loser of a company in our country alive when they've spent the last 30 years digging their own grave. They've built substandard vehicles which are disposable at best, they've taken those uninteresting pieces of crap and wrapped them in slightly different plastic so they can charge more and call it a "premium brand." Meanwhile, they've been building smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles that drive and handle better, even look better in most cases, for their European markets and have the audacity to tell us that they can't bring them over here. BULLSHIT. European safety standards have exceeded their US counterparts for decades, now. They say the cars aren't big enough for Americans (read: fat Americans). They'd have to re-design and re-tool things. Again, BULLSHIT. They're called container ships you fuckwit cock holsters. You drive the cars in, strap them down, and then drive them off when they arrive in New York. If the car is too small for the (fatass) American, he won't buy it.

They have grown too big for their britches, if you will. Bailout or not, those jobs are gone. Those benefits are gone. It's all gone. They would have you believe that this $25B handout will magically save the world because it will keep GM from failing. What they conveniently omit is that, in order to stay alive, they are going to massively clean house. Entire brands are going to go back into the closet (Eagle ring a bell?) and models will be scrapped. With the massive reduction in demand, the supply will have to be reduced, so there go all those jobs they claim will be saved.

If the big 3 get their handout, they are going to clean house like you have never seen. What production remains will be in Mexico before the UAW can say "WAT," and all the economic hardship and suffering of those of us who have to get up in the morning and go to real fucking work will be shit out of luck, as usual.

It's too late to save them. This privatizing industry gains and socializing the losses is grade-a bullshit any way you cut it.




EDIT:
Thinking some more about it, if they come back and say that crash ratings for EU models aren't up to US standards, which do you think is more important to the American right now - An inexpensive, economical car that is actually remotely desirable and a fucking job, or an NHTSA 5-star rating? People will buy them.

They might also say that emissions standards aren't as stringent in the EU. Interesting, when you consider that we're pretty much the only country in the ENTIRE WORLD that hasn't ratified the Kyoto protocol. How can we claim that European cars aren't as emissions friendly when, as an entire country, we are the biggest slackers in the world? People will buy them.

Another EDIT:
Why isn't the government saying to the UAW, "You guys are the fucking problem here. Fuck you. You don't get another dime. Don't like it? GTFO." Why is it they still have to get their cut for the next year? Money grubbing executives, plain and simple. Greased palms and a righteous ass fuck to the American people.

getty up

-kent-




'98 Talon...gone, but not forgotten

getty up

-kent-




'98 Talon...gone, but not forgotten

Greg

'19 Genesis G70 3.3t AWD
'88 Chrysler Conquest TSI

Let them fall.

Im not paying extra taxes because the unions are allowed to walk all over them and because of poor business decisions.

Except Chrysler. I hope they come out ok.

The market will always take care of inefficient, unneeded firms. There just isn't room for as many big producers as there are right now. It's not fair to the consumers (the American public) to promote inefficient (more expensive) products.

1991 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX - SOLD
2006 Mustang GT Convertible

Well, seeing that I am a GM tech, I think we should get bailed out just so I can keep my job, lol...

However, on a side note, I think GM has made terrible decisions within the passed decade. They seem to try and step above other manufacturer's by designing better looking or whatever vehicles. No problem with that, but what they didnt keep in mind is the price. They need to be able to compete with the other models, their cars are priced way too fucking high. Also doesnt make sense that this week, GM raised their matrix parts prices back up another 15%. Thats bullshit. You need fucking help, so raise your prices, makes alot of sense to me...

But, if the gvmt bailed out fucking wallstreet which IMO deffinately should NOT have hapened, I dont see why they should bail out UAW.

-MIKE-

Stroked 2.2L

I was 100% AGAINST bailing out Wall Street and the Banks. Angry enough about it to write to my senators and representatives.

I am FOR an U.S. automotive special loan program.

Why? It's our last major manufacturing field in the U.S. It goes, the U.S. is essentially done for IMO. We need to make *something* in this country, other than consumables for women.

Wall Street bailout = More money for a greedy plutocracy

Big 3 = REAL JOBS FOR REAL AMERICANS. Don't play the automotive plant workers for the stupid decisions at the top.

Now don't get me wrong. Fuck hummers, fuck suburbans, and fuck every other POS mega vehicle the U.S. automakers make. I hope those divisions die a miserable death.

2gnt: '99 RS-T, killed by a toyota, pending rebuild...
Daily: Volt
Daily #2: '99 EVG ebike- STOLEN by PEDRO

That's ok, the bailout money isn't bailing anything out. Those guys changed their minds after they got the check...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27770950/

Greg

'19 Genesis G70 3.3t AWD
'88 Chrysler Conquest TSI

the oil companies should bail them out.

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Matt D.
'06 Evo IX SE
'98 RS-T 13.8 @ 106.1

getty up

-kent-




'98 Talon...gone, but not forgotten

stupid government rule loopholes that protect their stupid asses!!

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A bailout for the Big 3 is a huge mistake. The best thing that they can do right now is to declare bankruptcy. They can force the Union out if they enter bankruptcy.

I don't want to hear about 'the poor workers' either. The local paper here had an AP story. The AVERAGE salary of a UAW employee is $78.38/hr. Raise your hand if you make that kind of scratch. I sure as fuck don't. The average Toyota employee makes $40/hr. Yep. I still don't make close to that.

Car manufacturing jobs aren't vital to our trade anyway. It's damn near impossible to get American cars into foreign markets. Even when we do get them there they don't sell due to high tariffs on our products. If you want to look at a manufacturing job that produces serious trade. Look at Caterpillar. They are the biggest exporter of machinery in the US right now.

The big 3 deserve to fail. They have a shitty business model. Any loan by the Gov't right now will only prolong the inevitable. A better solution is to cut their tax rates. I bet if the governor of Michigan cut corporate taxes, income taxes and the Congress voted to cut national taxes that would free up a lot of money inside of those companies making them profitable almost overnight. Once they are profitable and renegotiate their contracts down more, I bet build quality goes up and my desire to purchase an American vehicle goes up as well.

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getty up

-kent-




'98 Talon...gone, but not forgotten

Nardelli also agreed to help out Chrysler by taking a pay cut to $1/yr.

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I think you guys are missing out on a lot of simple economic concepts. If a firm is going under it is either because they are inefficient, or there isn't enough room for them in the marketplace (i.e. not enough industry demand). By keeping a company alive with either of those qualities is not equitable to the CONSUMER.

1991 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX - SOLD
2006 Mustang GT Convertible

Wow! Lots of ideas in here... I am no economics major and I work for a Ford Dealership. Let's see... Bailout? I think we almost have to. I heard once ( a Long while ago) that the Fortune 5 was the top five companies in the US that if they were to ever fail, would drive the country into a serious financial disaster something like the depression. I see the big three in that boat. Look at the far reaching effects of letting them fail...

Intermodal shipping takes a good hit.
Trucking takes a good hit.
Utility companies take a hit.
All automaker parts suppliers take a hit.
Steel industry takes a hit.
Mining industry takes a hit.
U-haul, Hertz, Budget take a hit.
Do you see where I am going with this???

Let me give some perspective to this... In Norfolk Va and the surrounding cities at the outset of Desert Storm, The Navy deployed something close to 5 complete battle groups and three or four Amphibious assault groups. What was left were the ships that could not leave for one reason or another. That meant that roughly 15K people were not in town. For 6 months +, local businesses lost that revenue. The effects of that were immediate. 32 businesses shut down within a month in Norfolk alone. The other 6 cities in the Hampton roads area felt similar pain. Many of the businesses never reopened. The trickle down effect was more of a wash down. It was felt in most of the Mid-atlantic region. Now play this on a national level...

I don't agree with bailing out when it comes to an issue of mismangement. I feel that is what is at play here. The unions have, I feel, played a part in the laziness of our factory workers in general. Look at Asian automakers. Their workers have ownership in the product (not literal) and are held accountable for their shortcomings or failures in quality. We are not. We blame it on the machines. Someone had to program them and someone has to maintain them. Let the govenment step in and OVERSEE the restructuring and rebuiliding of them while letting them do the work.

If I remember right, Conrail was failing. The government stepped in and took it over completely. It became the ONLY profitable government entity. Then the dumbasses sold it! but I believe they could do it with the right people at the helm. Every one of us in this group must take the responsibility and have the accountability for our job performance and our own well being. If you don't see opportunity, Make it. Don't whine and look for a handout.

So now at 44 what the hell do I do?

The problem with just simply shuting down an already in use brand is that the states will charge them millions to do it per dealership. Spread over 1000's of dealership across the nation. That billions of dollars just to shut down say buick for example. I think we should bail the auto industry but only under very strick guidelines, for instance that have selloff those unused properties and airplanes, cut salaries, etc. They have hundreds of closed factories just siting there they still pay taxs, and utilites on those in some states. Sell those private jets, and all other excess assets, instaed of trying to maintain a lifestyle/company which cant afford it, Then see how much u need.

The Lehman brothers recieved part of the bailout, they made 480M and lost 130 in the crash, they were still able to keep over a dozen multi million dollar homes they dont even used except for a couple weeks a year. Plus there millions of dollars used to but Ferrari's as fleet vehicle.

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There are many people to blame in this problem besides the UAW (although a huge problem). For decades now the UAW has negotiated contracts and controlled the automakers to fill their own pockets with money, with no actual regard for the jobs they were trying to "protect". A huge toll was placed on healthcare costs that have just grown exponentially in the last 20 years. UAW negotiated to have nearly free medical care for its employees while the consumers footed the bill. Instead of restructuring healthcare they just let dumb fucking employees go about racking up unnecessary medical bills. Healthcare workers: "How about a generic to save your company some money Mr. union worker?" Union workers: "No, fuck off I get the brand for free and it costs 10 times as much and I don't have to pay it so I don't give a rat’s ass!!" So now those same fuckwads were laid off and for good reason, now they are screaming that they don't have a job and no income, maybe they should have thought about more than just themselves for 20 years. Blame it on the employees for being uneducated pricks with more power over their employers than any other industry in America. Congrats for sending your company into bankruptcy with no regard for anyone else’s jobs just because you are an ignorant fool.
Thank to the UAW for allowing them to do this while obviously "protecting jobs and benefits" despite decades of knowledge it was sending the companies under. Where are all those jobs you were "protecting", or should I say where are those union employees that were paying your dues for decades?

Oh let's not forget these corporate execs that overinflate their worth and provide no growth in the industry for 20 years. While the market asks for fuel efficient cars, let's just pump them gas guzzling SUVs and teach them how to just drive like idiots with no regard for anyone’s safety because you won't die in that tank! How about decades of failing brands and styles that sit on showroom floors for years? How about producing inferior products with inferior pricing and options? Let's fill our cars with cheap plastic shit and when it all breaks they have to come back and get it fixed over and over again. Let's not provide warranties that are competitive in the market place..

I mean I can go on and on with how big of fuckups everyone was in this whole scenario. Let them all burn, I don't care. Force them to produce a product that the market is looking for, why should we pay for them to fuck up for 30 years and now look for a handout because there is a competitor with superior products at a better price with better options. Companies that can't succeed just burn... it's natural selection at its finest. LET IT HAPPEN!!!

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Originally posted by DR1665

Originally posted by totaleklipse97 Instead of restructuring healthcare they just let dumb fucking employees go about racking up unnecessary medical bills. Healthcare workers: "How about a generic to save your company some money Mr. union worker?" Union workers: "No, fuck off I get the brand for free and it costs 10 times as much and I don't have to pay it so I don't give a rat’s ass!!" So now those same fuckwads were laid off and for good reason, now they are screaming that they don't have a job and no income, maybe they should have thought about more than just themselves for 20 years. Blame it on the employees for being uneducated pricks with more power over their employers than any other industry in America. Congrats for sending your company into bankruptcy with no regard for anyone else’s jobs just because you are an ignorant fool.

You know, it strikes me there's a parallel could be drawn from this situation. Just as GM represents greed, sloth, and inefficiency within corporate America, so too, does American society, in general, represent greed, sloth and inefficiency within the global community. We consume more fossil fuels than anyone else, yet we are the only country in the world yet to ratify that Kyoto Convention thing with regards to the environment. Not saying global warming is truth or fiction, but there's no reason why we shouldn't be doing our part to be more responsible environmentally. The UAW people aren't interested in generic prescriptions because they can get the name brand for free. The USA people aren't interested in super efficient vehicles and clean mass transit because we can get gas for a third the price anywhere else in the world. Just an interesting thought. Could it be that GM is a harbinger of America's future? Could it be that our indifference to their problems will one day be reflected in the indifference of the global community to help us out when our own greed and sloth have bankrupted the government and infrastructure breaks down into near anarchy?

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Originally posted by DR1665

Originally posted by Diceman19 i just bought this. congratulate me.

LOL! Make that loan $7.99996B to GM. Oh wait! The actually lose money on every vehicle! Way to go, Dice! Now they need $8.000004B

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