First of all let me say that I was a GM Brat growing up so I have some personal interest in this. I just hate to see everything that my father work for his whole life disappear in a matter months. With the current real estate conditions in Michigan he stands to lose quite a bit if the pension he counts on disappears. That being said I believe that there has to be a massive reconstruction of the business models of the Big "2 1/2" and I defiantly think that UAW has got to either just go away or at the very least lose a majority of it's power. The UAW's day has passed and seems to hurt more than it help. Thanks for all your help in the 1930's and 40' but die now. So, in short I am totally on the fence on this one But I don't think the workers should suffer because of the decisions of the powers that be.

Constructive discussion is encouraged but no bashing of the workers and there "lazy" behavior. It happens, I know, but just think about this. If you dangle cheese in front of hungry mouse and don't expect the mouse to eat, you're crazy. In other words, what would you have done if you work there and could get away with things?

Poll question: The Pink Elephant in the middle of the room that no one want's to talk about.

Poll result (17 votes) Bail Out Big 3 (2 votes) Vote Let them Hang (13 votes) Vote Other (A.K.A. Cheese) (2 votes) Vote (0 votes) Vote (0 votes) Vote (0 votes) Vote

To be honest I'm fed up pumping my tax money into failing businesses. As far as the Big 3 go, I say let them fall. Otherwise, we're basically rewarding poor management and business models, and encouraging them to do them same thing all over again. Let's face it, the vast majority of domestic cars are made with inferior parts and quality control. As for workers and pensions, the only thing certain in this world is that nothing is certain. To simply assume that money will always be available and nothing could possibly happen to a company is foolhardy, at best. While I do feel for them, it is always important to invest what money you have.

I have a similar view Kent. I dont think the workers should lose everything because the management cant run a banana factory.

I think the govt should bail them out but take a seat on the board. Buy their way in if you will. Then cut all CEOs pay to no more than 100k. If you cant run a business responsibly then get out, we will do it for you.

There should also be very strict contingencies set in place and they must use the money to build higher quality, more efficient, at the same price (or lower) to the consumer!

Destroy the UAW.

I think it's horrible what this is going to do to so many middle-class families across the country (and around the world, no doubt), but I've already written my representatives asking they NOT support ANY further bailouts. When you've got the General burning through $2B/month in cash with less than $16B in reserves, handing them another $8B doesn't solve their problems. It only delays the inevitable.

Hell, GM has even stated that they need this bailout to get them through until 2010 when UAW contract negotiations take effect and they save some money. Translation: We don't have enough money to just piss away or otherwise throw onto the fire to get us through until we figure it will be convenient for us to consider being proactive about the situation.

If you or I don't make our car payment to GM, they will be right there to take it the fuck away from us. If you or I don't make our house payment, you know they will throw us right the fuck out on our asses. Why is it that, all of the sudden, we're supposed to tighten our belts even more to keep the biggest fucking loser of a company in our country alive when they've spent the last 30 years digging their own grave. They've built substandard vehicles which are disposable at best, they've taken those uninteresting pieces of crap and wrapped them in slightly different plastic so they can charge more and call it a "premium brand." Meanwhile, they've been building smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles that drive and handle better, even look better in most cases, for their European markets and have the audacity to tell us that they can't bring them over here. BULLSHIT. European safety standards have exceeded their US counterparts for decades, now. They say the cars aren't big enough for Americans (read: fat Americans). They'd have to re-design and re-tool things. Again, BULLSHIT. They're called container ships you fuckwit cock holsters. You drive the cars in, strap them down, and then drive them off when they arrive in New York. If the car is too small for the (fatass) American, he won't buy it.

They have grown too big for their britches, if you will. Bailout or not, those jobs are gone. Those benefits are gone. It's all gone. They would have you believe that this $25B handout will magically save the world because it will keep GM from failing. What they conveniently omit is that, in order to stay alive, they are going to massively clean house. Entire brands are going to go back into the closet (Eagle ring a bell?) and models will be scrapped. With the massive reduction in demand, the supply will have to be reduced, so there go all those jobs they claim will be saved.

If the big 3 get their handout, they are going to clean house like you have never seen. What production remains will be in Mexico before the UAW can say "WAT," and all the economic hardship and suffering of those of us who have to get up in the morning and go to real fucking work will be shit out of luck, as usual.

It's too late to save them. This privatizing industry gains and socializing the losses is grade-a bullshit any way you cut it.




EDIT:
Thinking some more about it, if they come back and say that crash ratings for EU models aren't up to US standards, which do you think is more important to the American right now - An inexpensive, economical car that is actually remotely desirable and a fucking job, or an NHTSA 5-star rating? People will buy them.

They might also say that emissions standards aren't as stringent in the EU. Interesting, when you consider that we're pretty much the only country in the ENTIRE WORLD that hasn't ratified the Kyoto protocol. How can we claim that European cars aren't as emissions friendly when, as an entire country, we are the biggest slackers in the world? People will buy them.

Another EDIT:
Why isn't the government saying to the UAW, "You guys are the fucking problem here. Fuck you. You don't get another dime. Don't like it? GTFO." Why is it they still have to get their cut for the next year? Money grubbing executives, plain and simple. Greased palms and a righteous ass fuck to the American people.

Originally posted by DR1665
All the stuff Brian said...

Why don't you tell us how you really feel? LOL

You make really good points and I've thought about all them myself. GM in particular is way to model intensive and they've some how managed to compete against themselves. I counted all the models the other day, they have 50. You can't even begin to imagine all the tooling that is required to make Just one of the Chevy, Buick, Pontiac, versions of the same damn car. Not to mention just the Chevy Malibu and Impala. $2000 Difference in the MSRP. I mean what the fuck are you thinking? Years ago (When the axed Oldsmobile) I used to say they should just cut down to Chevrolet and Cadillac. But the augment was "What about and the Buick, Pontiac, GMC, and Saturn dealerships?" Well, I feel for them and they shouldn't have to suffer either, it's not their fault, but damn.

Take a look at Southwest airlines. There is a good business plan. They have one plane, The boeing 737. Think about it. Your pilots only have to be trained on one plane. Your mechanics only have be trained on one plane, your flight attendants only have be trained on one plane. So not matter what happens someone else on the staff can fill in. Simpler is better. And GM need to realize they can't make everyone happy. less options may lead to less buyers but in the long run high quality cars for less money would be more profitable.

Originally posted by micyek

Originally posted by DR1665
All the stuff Brian said...

Why don't you tell us how you really feel?

Curious, though. Why isn't the government stepping in to tell the UAW to "Get fucked. We're saving the economy, here." This $2B/month is going right to the Union. Now, that's either greedy union officials like Mr. Gettafinger or whatever, or it's crazy overpaid union workers unwilling to give it up.

You can either lose your job and kill off every other job like it in the country, or you can take a 50% pay cut, cut your ties with the UAW, and help us all figure this out.

While not any situation I'd like to be in, making half as much doing the same thing is better than losing everything...

Originally posted by DR1665
Curious, though. Why isn't the government stepping in to tell the UAW to "Get fucked. We're saving the economy, here." This $2B/month is going right to the Union. Now, that's either greedy union officials like Mr. Gettafinger or whatever, or it's crazy overpaid union workers unwilling to give it up. You can either lose your job and kill off every other job like it in the country, or you can take a 50% pay cut, cut your ties with the UAW, and help us all figure this out. While not any situation I'd like to be in, making half as much doing the same thing is better than losing everything...

Well...simply put UAW members traditionaly vote Democrat....and I don't need to tell you who is controlling things right now.

I thing a 50% cut in pay is a little drastic...but a 25% cut in pay would be in order. Plus paying a percentage of their insurance premium and cut benefits. Don't quote me on this, but I think that if the average line worker is getting $25/hour in pay they are getting about that in benefits. And no more of this bull shit "That's not my job, so I'll sit around until it gets done", "I can't do that because I'll get in trouble because I'll get in trouble from the union". Toyota's "Lean Manufacturing" is an awesome concept and something the UAW should have adopted 20 years ago. But they wanted to "Protect" jobs. If they really wanted to protect jobs they would have found ways to cut costs and make each employee as efficient as possible. Make yourself valuable to the company and you won't have to worry about being fired. The UAW cultured laziness and ignorance and now the average Joe is paying the price now.

Originally posted by micyek
Toyota's "Lean Manufacturing" is an awesome concept and something the UAW should have adopted 20 years ago. But they wanted to "Protect" jobs. If they really wanted to protect jobs they would have found ways to cut costs and make each employee as efficient as possible. Make yourself valuable to the company and you won't have to worry about being fired. The UAW cultured laziness and ignorance and now the average Joe is paying the price now.

I got news for you, the ONLY jobs the UAW was EVER interested in protecting is their own. When it comes right down to it, a Union is a business. All those Union officers take home a paycheck culled from the workers Union dues. The UAW created this mess, driven by their own greed and short-sightedness. Throw in a few head-in-the-clouds CEO's, and negotiating teams that wouldn't stand up to the UAW, and here we are.

I have been inside several assembly plants in my time, and let me tell you, the guys I see there would DIE if they had to work as hard as the drive thru guy at McD's. The whole thing just pisses me off.

Let them fall.

Im not paying extra taxes because the unions are allowed to walk all over them and because of poor business decisions.

Except Chrysler. I hope they come out ok.

Originally posted by teklein
Let them fall. Im not paying extra taxes because the unions are allowed to walk all over them and because of poor business decisions. Except Chrysler. I hope they come out ok.

Heh. Chrysler is run by Nardelli? This was news to me recently, but he was so poor a CEO that he almost ran Home Depot into the ground. A real winner there.

So no more bailouts and a kick in the ass to Nardelli.

The market will always take care of inefficient, unneeded firms. There just isn't room for as many big producers as there are right now. It's not fair to the consumers (the American public) to promote inefficient (more expensive) products.

Well, seeing that I am a GM tech, I think we should get bailed out just so I can keep my job, lol...

However, on a side note, I think GM has made terrible decisions within the passed decade. They seem to try and step above other manufacturer's by designing better looking or whatever vehicles. No problem with that, but what they didnt keep in mind is the price. They need to be able to compete with the other models, their cars are priced way too fucking high. Also doesnt make sense that this week, GM raised their matrix parts prices back up another 15%. Thats bullshit. You need fucking help, so raise your prices, makes alot of sense to me...

But, if the gvmt bailed out fucking wallstreet which IMO deffinately should NOT have hapened, I dont see why they should bail out UAW.

Originally posted by DR1665

Originally posted by teklein Let them fall. Im not paying extra taxes because the unions are allowed to walk all over them and because of poor business decisions. Except Chrysler. I hope they come out ok.

Heh. Chrysler is run by Nardelli? This was news to me recently, but he was so poor a CEO that he almost ran Home Depot into the ground. A real winner there. So no more bailouts and a kick in the ass to Nardelli.

Only reason I said Chrysler is so I can still (easily) get parts :P

I was 100% AGAINST bailing out Wall Street and the Banks. Angry enough about it to write to my senators and representatives.

I am FOR an U.S. automotive special loan program.

Why? It's our last major manufacturing field in the U.S. It goes, the U.S. is essentially done for IMO. We need to make *something* in this country, other than consumables for women.

Wall Street bailout = More money for a greedy plutocracy

Big 3 = REAL JOBS FOR REAL AMERICANS. Don't play the automotive plant workers for the stupid decisions at the top.

Now don't get me wrong. Fuck hummers, fuck suburbans, and fuck every other POS mega vehicle the U.S. automakers make. I hope those divisions die a miserable death.

That's ok, the bailout money isn't bailing anything out. Those guys changed their minds after they got the check...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27770950/

the oil companies should bail them out.

Originally posted by soulcontroller
the oil companies should bail them out.

Very interesting concept Matt. I'm not sure I want big oil (OPEC) controlling that much of our manufacturing district though. The first time our government tried to enforce any kind of emission standards they would just shut down production anyway, to prove a point. As much as I like burning dinosaurs, we do have to look to the future and keep making progress.

Originally posted by 992gnt
That's ok, the bailout money isn't bailing anything out. Those guys changed their minds after they got the check... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27770950/

That is such bullshit! If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention. They swung themselves a $700 BILLION dollar blank check that THE PEOPLE paying for DID NOT WANT specifically so they could buy up these "toxic assets," but now they're not going to use the funds for that? C'mon guys! For $700B we could just TAKE THE FUCKING OIL. I don't give a fuck. Wow.

This country is full of the laziest, dumbest mother fuckers on the planet. I tell you what. Why is it some dumb bitch can sue McDonalds for a burned twat and get millions, but the ENTIRE POPULATION can't stand together and tell the government to get fucked.

If you could swing a loan for a house right now, get the funds wired, but then tell the bank, "You know what, I'm just going to buy a Porsche," they would yank that money back so fast your ears would bleed.

I usually hate it when people start talking all conspiracy theory, or quote the tacky bumper sticker, "Don't steal, the government hates competition," but these guys just fucked an entire generation financially, justified it with a reason, but then came back and decided to do something else with it.

Why do we have idiots out there trying to sue that Obama isn't eligible to be president, but not out there trying to sue the government for an obvious bait-and-switch?

Fucking useless idiots. Gah!

stupid government rule loopholes that protect their stupid asses!!

From the Handbook for Modern Law
Generally, a sovereign government cannot be sued unless it allows itself to be sued.

A bailout for the Big 3 is a huge mistake. The best thing that they can do right now is to declare bankruptcy. They can force the Union out if they enter bankruptcy.

I don't want to hear about 'the poor workers' either. The local paper here had an AP story. The AVERAGE salary of a UAW employee is $78.38/hr. Raise your hand if you make that kind of scratch. I sure as fuck don't. The average Toyota employee makes $40/hr. Yep. I still don't make close to that.

Car manufacturing jobs aren't vital to our trade anyway. It's damn near impossible to get American cars into foreign markets. Even when we do get them there they don't sell due to high tariffs on our products. If you want to look at a manufacturing job that produces serious trade. Look at Caterpillar. They are the biggest exporter of machinery in the US right now.

The big 3 deserve to fail. They have a shitty business model. Any loan by the Gov't right now will only prolong the inevitable. A better solution is to cut their tax rates. I bet if the governor of Michigan cut corporate taxes, income taxes and the Congress voted to cut national taxes that would free up a lot of money inside of those companies making them profitable almost overnight. Once they are profitable and renegotiate their contracts down more, I bet build quality goes up and my desire to purchase an American vehicle goes up as well.

Originally posted by freelancefool
I bet if the governor of Michigan cut corporate taxes, income taxes

Yeah right...like that is going to happen....We don't call her 2 penny jenny for nothing. LOL

Nardelli also agreed to help out Chrysler by taking a pay cut to $1/yr.

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon
I have a similar view Kent. I dont think the workers should lose everything because the management cant run a banana factory. I think the govt should bail them out but take a seat on the board. Buy their way in if you will. Then cut all CEOs pay to no more than 100k. If you cant run a business responsibly then get out, we will do it for you. There should also be very strict contingencies set in place and they must use the money to build higher quality, more efficient, at the same price (or lower) to the consumer!

I think this is a horrible idea Terry. Tell me one government program that you know that works well. Just one. You want that kind of incompetence on a board. The solution isn't the government I promise.

Find me one person who will put up with the headache of running a large corporation for $100k/yr. You will have a CEO that isn't worth a shit or you will be appointing CEOs every other day. They are paid as well as they are because they have what it takes to run the company. They have every right in a free market to demand as much money as they can get.

Originally posted by freelancefool

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon I have a similar view Kent. I dont think the workers should lose everything because the management cant run a banana factory. I think the govt should bail them out but take a seat on the board. Buy their way in if you will. Then cut all CEOs pay to no more than 100k. If you cant run a business responsibly then get out, we will do it for you. There should also be very strict contingencies set in place and they must use the money to build higher quality, more efficient, at the same price (or lower) to the consumer!

I think this is a horrible idea Terry. Tell me one government program that you know that works well. Just one. You want that kind of incompetence on a board. The solution isn't the government I promise. Find me one person who will put up with the headache of running a large corporation for $100k/yr. You will have a CEO that isn't worth a shit or you will be appointing CEOs every other day. They are paid as well as they are because they have what it takes to run the company. They have every right in a free market to demand as much money as they can get.

I know where to find plenty of good workers who would love 100 grand!

As a exploited trucker I support the unions why because if the unions were to grow (again like they did back in the days) my paycheck would grow and owner operators would do the same and the Government would not dare make anymore laws to fuck me over like California with it's old ass 55mph BS or new anti-idle regulations.

Truckers used to bring home a grand a week before deregulation which was started by Carter and nail in coffin by Regan.
Now we are lucky to bring home 500-700 a week!

Deregulation has allowed Companies to go unchecked and some selling drivers a truck with no intent of letting him pay it off then they wait for the next sucker to come along.
Ya can't prove a company has any freight so you can can you? And nor can you just get your own freight it's in the contract so you lose ya truck back the company who sold it to ya....There's no law against it and it's hard as well as costly to prove wrong doing and if you try the companies put a bad DAT report on ya.

Some of these companies are starting to head in the same direction and trick drivers into coming to them and turn right around and sell em a truck AFTER they come on board as a company driver because the driver gets sick of the job hopping games in the industry played by companies and tries to strike out on his own.

There's a company right now (Name withheld) that has told all it's drivers we are switching to teams and them guys are quiting left and right Funny no one told my buddy tell he got there for orientation and what does my buddy do? He decides to go with there owner operator division....Trust me he will fall I've seen it a thousand times yet he won't listen.

And YES Government and Social Security works! Welfare would work better if it had not stings attached but ropes! I know welfare quite well because I was on it (And Nooo not the female side but male the side) and if it was set up so that people were mandated to get quality training.

Governments job is to look after the welfare of the people and it does not, Case in point there are many liquor stores in my hood that need to be shut down by the local government yet does not because it gets revenue from the stuff!

We The People must DEMAND our government to be held to the highest standard and or stop taking bribes from lobbyist or We The People must throw em out especially the old SOB's who have been in government since I was a baby!

I think you guys are missing out on a lot of simple economic concepts. If a firm is going under it is either because they are inefficient, or there isn't enough room for them in the marketplace (i.e. not enough industry demand). By keeping a company alive with either of those qualities is not equitable to the CONSUMER.

Wow! Lots of ideas in here... I am no economics major and I work for a Ford Dealership. Let's see... Bailout? I think we almost have to. I heard once ( a Long while ago) that the Fortune 5 was the top five companies in the US that if they were to ever fail, would drive the country into a serious financial disaster something like the depression. I see the big three in that boat. Look at the far reaching effects of letting them fail...

Intermodal shipping takes a good hit.
Trucking takes a good hit.
Utility companies take a hit.
All automaker parts suppliers take a hit.
Steel industry takes a hit.
Mining industry takes a hit.
U-haul, Hertz, Budget take a hit.
Do you see where I am going with this???

Let me give some perspective to this... In Norfolk Va and the surrounding cities at the outset of Desert Storm, The Navy deployed something close to 5 complete battle groups and three or four Amphibious assault groups. What was left were the ships that could not leave for one reason or another. That meant that roughly 15K people were not in town. For 6 months +, local businesses lost that revenue. The effects of that were immediate. 32 businesses shut down within a month in Norfolk alone. The other 6 cities in the Hampton roads area felt similar pain. Many of the businesses never reopened. The trickle down effect was more of a wash down. It was felt in most of the Mid-atlantic region. Now play this on a national level...

I don't agree with bailing out when it comes to an issue of mismangement. I feel that is what is at play here. The unions have, I feel, played a part in the laziness of our factory workers in general. Look at Asian automakers. Their workers have ownership in the product (not literal) and are held accountable for their shortcomings or failures in quality. We are not. We blame it on the machines. Someone had to program them and someone has to maintain them. Let the govenment step in and OVERSEE the restructuring and rebuiliding of them while letting them do the work.

If I remember right, Conrail was failing. The government stepped in and took it over completely. It became the ONLY profitable government entity. Then the dumbasses sold it! but I believe they could do it with the right people at the helm. Every one of us in this group must take the responsibility and have the accountability for our job performance and our own well being. If you don't see opportunity, Make it. Don't whine and look for a handout.

The problem with just simply shuting down an already in use brand is that the states will charge them millions to do it per dealership. Spread over 1000's of dealership across the nation. That billions of dollars just to shut down say buick for example. I think we should bail the auto industry but only under very strick guidelines, for instance that have selloff those unused properties and airplanes, cut salaries, etc. They have hundreds of closed factories just siting there they still pay taxs, and utilites on those in some states. Sell those private jets, and all other excess assets, instaed of trying to maintain a lifestyle/company which cant afford it, Then see how much u need.

The Lehman brothers recieved part of the bailout, they made 480M and lost 130 in the crash, they were still able to keep over a dozen multi million dollar homes they dont even used except for a couple weeks a year. Plus there millions of dollars used to but Ferrari's as fleet vehicle.

Originally posted by shybuck
The problem with just simply shuting down an already in use brand is that the states will charge them millions to do it per dealership. Spread over 1000's of dealership across the nation. That billions of dollars just to shut down say buick for example. I think we should bail the auto industry but only under very strick guidelines, for instance that have selloff those unused properties and airplanes, cut salaries, etc. They have hundreds of closed factories just siting there they still pay taxs, and utilites on those in some states. Sell those private jets, and all other excess assets, instaed of trying to maintain a lifestyle/company which cant afford it, Then see how much u need. The Lehman brothers recieved part of the bailout, they made 480M and lost 130 in the crash, they were still able to keep over a dozen multi million dollar homes they dont even used except for a couple weeks a year. Plus there millions of dollars used to but Ferrari's as fleet vehicle.

You do realize that if GM were to declare bankruptcy it would require everyone to renegotiate their contracts. They could effectively kill off brands and force dealerships to close/give up licensing for relatively nothing.

There are many people to blame in this problem besides the UAW (although a huge problem). For decades now the UAW has negotiated contracts and controlled the automakers to fill their own pockets with money, with no actual regard for the jobs they were trying to "protect". A huge toll was placed on healthcare costs that have just grown exponentially in the last 20 years. UAW negotiated to have nearly free medical care for its employees while the consumers footed the bill. Instead of restructuring healthcare they just let dumb fucking employees go about racking up unnecessary medical bills. Healthcare workers: "How about a generic to save your company some money Mr. union worker?" Union workers: "No, fuck off I get the brand for free and it costs 10 times as much and I don't have to pay it so I don't give a rat’s ass!!" So now those same fuckwads were laid off and for good reason, now they are screaming that they don't have a job and no income, maybe they should have thought about more than just themselves for 20 years. Blame it on the employees for being uneducated pricks with more power over their employers than any other industry in America. Congrats for sending your company into bankruptcy with no regard for anyone else’s jobs just because you are an ignorant fool.
Thank to the UAW for allowing them to do this while obviously "protecting jobs and benefits" despite decades of knowledge it was sending the companies under. Where are all those jobs you were "protecting", or should I say where are those union employees that were paying your dues for decades?

Oh let's not forget these corporate execs that overinflate their worth and provide no growth in the industry for 20 years. While the market asks for fuel efficient cars, let's just pump them gas guzzling SUVs and teach them how to just drive like idiots with no regard for anyone’s safety because you won't die in that tank! How about decades of failing brands and styles that sit on showroom floors for years? How about producing inferior products with inferior pricing and options? Let's fill our cars with cheap plastic shit and when it all breaks they have to come back and get it fixed over and over again. Let's not provide warranties that are competitive in the market place..

I mean I can go on and on with how big of fuckups everyone was in this whole scenario. Let them all burn, I don't care. Force them to produce a product that the market is looking for, why should we pay for them to fuck up for 30 years and now look for a handout because there is a competitor with superior products at a better price with better options. Companies that can't succeed just burn... it's natural selection at its finest. LET IT HAPPEN!!!

Originally posted by totaleklipse97
Instead of restructuring healthcare they just let dumb fucking employees go about racking up unnecessary medical bills. Healthcare workers: "How about a generic to save your company some money Mr. union worker?" Union workers: "No, fuck off I get the brand for free and it costs 10 times as much and I don't have to pay it so I don't give a rat’s ass!!" So now those same fuckwads were laid off and for good reason, now they are screaming that they don't have a job and no income, maybe they should have thought about more than just themselves for 20 years. Blame it on the employees for being uneducated pricks with more power over their employers than any other industry in America. Congrats for sending your company into bankruptcy with no regard for anyone else’s jobs just because you are an ignorant fool.

You know, it strikes me there's a parallel could be drawn from this situation. Just as GM represents greed, sloth, and inefficiency within corporate America, so too, does American society, in general, represent greed, sloth and inefficiency within the global community.

We consume more fossil fuels than anyone else, yet we are the only country in the world yet to ratify that Kyoto Convention thing with regards to the environment. Not saying global warming is truth or fiction, but there's no reason why we shouldn't be doing our part to be more responsible environmentally.

The UAW people aren't interested in generic prescriptions because they can get the name brand for free. The USA people aren't interested in super efficient vehicles and clean mass transit because we can get gas for a third the price anywhere else in the world.

Just an interesting thought. Could it be that GM is a harbinger of America's future? Could it be that our indifference to their problems will one day be reflected in the indifference of the global community to help us out when our own greed and sloth have bankrupted the government and infrastructure breaks down into near anarchy?

:shrug

Originally posted by DR1665
Just as GM represents greed, sloth, and inefficiency within corporate America, so too, does American society, in general, represent greed, sloth and inefficiency within the global community.

THIS.

"Oh if you kill the big 3 it will destroy America!"

They say it like that would be a BAD thing. I love this country, but the people in it need a reality check. Not too long ago our grandparents were all farmers and factory workers.

Having a credit card and social security does not mean you are no longer responsible for producing everything you consume.

Originally posted by DR1665

Originally posted by totaleklipse97 Instead of restructuring healthcare they just let dumb fucking employees go about racking up unnecessary medical bills. Healthcare workers: "How about a generic to save your company some money Mr. union worker?" Union workers: "No, fuck off I get the brand for free and it costs 10 times as much and I don't have to pay it so I don't give a rat’s ass!!" So now those same fuckwads were laid off and for good reason, now they are screaming that they don't have a job and no income, maybe they should have thought about more than just themselves for 20 years. Blame it on the employees for being uneducated pricks with more power over their employers than any other industry in America. Congrats for sending your company into bankruptcy with no regard for anyone else’s jobs just because you are an ignorant fool.

You know, it strikes me there's a parallel could be drawn from this situation. Just as GM represents greed, sloth, and inefficiency within corporate America, so too, does American society, in general, represent greed, sloth and inefficiency within the global community. We consume more fossil fuels than anyone else, yet we are the only country in the world yet to ratify that Kyoto Convention thing with regards to the environment. Not saying global warming is truth or fiction, but there's no reason why we shouldn't be doing our part to be more responsible environmentally. The UAW people aren't interested in generic prescriptions because they can get the name brand for free. The USA people aren't interested in super efficient vehicles and clean mass transit because we can get gas for a third the price anywhere else in the world. Just an interesting thought. Could it be that GM is a harbinger of America's future? Could it be that our indifference to their problems will one day be reflected in the indifference of the global community to help us out when our own greed and sloth have bankrupted the government and infrastructure breaks down into near anarchy? :shrug

If I am reading this chart right almost every nation that signed the Kyoto protocol has increased their 'Greenhouse Gas' production.

Trading 'Carbon Credits' is a bad thing. It promotes nations with no industrialization to stay that way so a handful of people in the government can make huge profits off of selling a commodity-in the case the 'Carbon Offset Credits'-while not actually doing anything for their people.

I'm not ragging on you Brian. I just don't believe in 'Global Warming' by any means. I find that in most cases where people are forced to cap their pollution it hurts people economically. When an outside company steps in and says you will reduce your pollution output by 50% and it will cost you $5B to do so, where is the economic advantage? Most companies will cut production to solve this problem. Otherwise the price of their product will skyrocket and they will go out of business.

Originally posted by fullmoon
I know where to find plenty of good workers who would love 100 grand! As a exploited trucker I support the unions why because if the unions were to grow (again like they did back in the days) my paycheck would grow and owner operators would do the same and the Government would not dare make anymore laws to fuck me over like California with it's old ass 55mph BS or new anti-idle regulations. Truckers used to bring home a grand a week before deregulation which was started by Carter and nail in coffin by Regan. Now we are lucky to bring home 500-700 a week! Deregulation has allowed Companies to go unchecked and some selling drivers a truck with no intent of letting him pay it off then they wait for the next sucker to come along. Ya can't prove a company has any freight so you can can you? And nor can you just get your own freight it's in the contract so you lose ya truck back the company who sold it to ya....There's no law against it and it's hard as well as costly to prove wrong doing and if you try the companies put a bad DAT report on ya. Some of these companies are starting to head in the same direction and trick drivers into coming to them and turn right around and sell em a truck AFTER they come on board as a company driver because the driver gets sick of the job hopping games in the industry played by companies and tries to strike out on his own. There's a company right now (Name withheld) that has told all it's drivers we are switching to teams and them guys are quiting left and right Funny no one told my buddy tell he got there for orientation and what does my buddy do? He decides to go with there owner operator division....Trust me he will fall I've seen it a thousand times yet he won't listen. And YES Government and Social Security works! Welfare would work better if it had not stings attached but ropes! I know welfare quite well because I was on it (And Nooo not the female side but male the side) and if it was set up so that people were mandated to get quality training. Governments job is to look after the welfare of the people and it does not, Case in point there are many liquor stores in my hood that need to be shut down by the local government yet does not because it gets revenue from the stuff! We The People must DEMAND our government to be held to the highest standard and or stop taking bribes from lobbyist or We The People must throw em out especially the old SOB's who have been in government since I was a baby!

dont be upset with me if i dont shed a tear that you dont bring home 4k+ a month anymore. i survive on 2k/month and it doesnt hurt one bit, i promise.

Originally posted by ez
I was 100% AGAINST bailing out Wall Street and the Banks. Angry enough about it to write to my senators and representatives. I am FOR an U.S. automotive special loan program. Why? It's our last major manufacturing field in the U.S. It goes, the U.S. is essentially done for IMO. We need to make *something* in this country, other than consumables for women. Wall Street bailout = More money for a greedy plutocracy Big 3 = REAL JOBS FOR REAL AMERICANS. Don't play the automotive plant workers for the stupid decisions at the top. Now don't get me wrong. Fuck hummers, fuck suburbans, and fuck every other POS mega vehicle the U.S. automakers make. I hope those divisions die a miserable death.

i just bought this. congratulate me. ;)

Originally posted by Diceman19
i just bought this. congratulate me. ;)

LOL!

Make that loan $7.99996B to GM. Oh wait! The actually lose money on every vehicle! Way to go, Dice! Now they need $8.000004B

:nono

Originally posted by DR1665

Originally posted by Diceman19 i just bought this. congratulate me. ;)

LOL! Make that loan $7.99996B to GM. Oh wait! The actually lose money on every vehicle! Way to go, Dice! Now they need $8.000004B :nono

nah, the gmc stealer already got their money. i owe teachers credit union. im actually stimulating the economy. :D