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Top 2GNT Technical Performance/Engine Engine Management Systems & Controllers topic #841
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Subject: "Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition" 1 | 2 | 3 | Previous topic | Next topic
TeamXtremeRSMay-18-05 04:36 PM
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#841, "Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"


          

Well I got the car running great up to 10-11 psi,but when i try to run 15psi, i get a BIG backfire out the exhaust and the car bucks hard, and at the same time, the MS resets. I thought it was from running too rich, but it's not. After some leaning out of the VE map at that pressure, it still did it. I then reconnected the stock ECU to run spark, and it ran just fine, like it always did at 15 psi. I'm wondering if the 3.5ms dwell time is not enough for a strong spark at that boost pressure. Someting just isn't right somewhere. Nate, did you ever scope the stock ignition trigger signals to see what the ECU is using for dwell time? It's either the dwell settings not right, or big tach dropout at that pressure for some reason. I don't understand why the MS resets either when it backfires..The Mitsu ignitor stays really cool at idle, which is why i think we could up the dwell a bit for a stronger spark. Anyone have any insight?


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)

My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  

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AdministratorStar Turbo TalonMay-18-05 04:54 PM
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#842, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 0




          

I would adjust the dwell and try it. Kinda sounds like you are blowing the spark out. Perhaps the air is so compressed the spark is not strong enough.


Terry

  

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TeamXtremeRSMay-18-05 05:03 PM
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#843, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 1


          

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon
I would adjust the dwell and try it. Kinda sounds like you are blowing the spark out. Perhaps the air is so compressed the spark is not strong enough. Terry


Yeah, that's my first suspect anyway..Has anyone else running MS with igniton, run 15 psi yet with the current dwell settings? Or am I the first haha? Nate-Derek? I'll tell ya though, its freaky as hell when it happens at 15 pounds..def a new experience


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)

My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  

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Global Ruler Of All ThingsDarkOneMay-19-05 05:30 AM
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#844, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 2




          

Just increase the dwell until it either doesn't do it, or you reach a point where there's no more time to charge the coil in the given ignition window.

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Teamner947May-19-05 11:50 AM
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#849, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 2
May-19-05 11:57 AM by ner947



          

I've been able to hit 200 kPa. It runs pretty good with 7.0/3.7/0.5, but the CEL flashes once or twice around peak torque. I don't get any big backfiring or anything, it almost feels like the ignition only drops out for 1 or 2 cylinders for a brief moment and then it's gone. The wideband don't really twitch at all, it reads rich for just a split second. I'm going to try measuring what the stock ECU uses for dwell once I get my scope fixed, right now I'm looking more into the minimum discharge period, I think 0.5 may be too conserative.

Also, I've been really working on my spark advance table since I'm finished with the VE table for the most part... Note the aggressive area in the "spool-up" bins.


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TeamXtremeRSMay-19-05 03:00 PM
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#850, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 4


          

Well I posted over at msefi.com, and someone had mentioned that the overboost protection was kicking in the hard cut limiter. I checked that setting, and it was at 14.7 psi, which comes standard in the code. So I changed that to 21 psi, but i cant take the car out since its raining now. I'm wondering if that was the cause of the big backfire, as the ignition may be dropping spark from the hard cut limiter. Then all that unburnt fuel is igniting in the exhaust. The Mitsu ignitor stays super cool at idle, which is why i think we can up the dwell more. Hell, that module is mounted to the cylinder head on the 4g63, which gets pretty damn hot! I think that module should be pretty robust as far as heat is concerned. We really need to see what the stock ECU is doing with the igniton trigger signals though, on the scope. That would really solve the dwell issue. Nate, do you have any idea what the discharge period is supposed to be set to? I'm assuming that this is the time for a complete discharge of the coil after spark fires, but I wonder what it *should* be set to. That setting may def be having an effect.


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)

My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  

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TeamXtremeRSJun-05-05 10:08 AM
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#930, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 5
Jun-05-05 10:10 AM by XtremeRS

          

With a lot of MS user's help, we have figured out the issue. Some of us were using the stock ASD relay to switch on the MS main relay. Also, the ASD relay supplies power to the stock coilpack. When we run ignition with the MS, the stock ECU see's too many faults with everthing being disconnected from it, and will randomly reset itself, which quickly turns off and on, the ASD relay, which in turn, resets the MS, and cuts power(spark) from the coilpack for a brief second, causing the misfire/backfire/MS reset. The solution here is to switch on the main MS relay from the ignition switch's ignition wire, then use the MS's fuel pump relay output, to drive the stock fuel pump, and also send 12volts to the stock coilpack 12v feed wire. You want to wire the coilpack 12v to the fuel pump output, because that output switches off after a few seconds once the key is turned on, but not turned to crank. This keeps the power from the coilpack when doing code upgrades or just when keeping the key in the "run" position with the motor off. The fuel pump output on the MS can drive one relay, so i used that one relay to power up my fuel pump relay, and also send power to the coilpack..For this relay, it's best to grap constant 12v from the battery, fused of course.

The next issue to battle is the stock IAC valve, since it will surge rpm a bit when the MS is running both fuel and ignition. The stock ECU is freaking out, and opening/closing the IAC rapidly. We will have to figure out a fast idle control solution, and plug the IAC air bypass hole in the TB. Unplugging the IAC works good, but the main 2 problems with that is once in boost, the pressure can push in on the IAC pintle, and cause a higher idle. Also, you would have to keep your foot on the gas during cold warmup, to keep it idling.


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)

My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  

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AdministratorStar Turbo TalonJun-05-05 10:50 AM
Member since Oct 21st 2003
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#931, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 6




          

Ah so that was really it. very nice Discovery........ now i have to rewire my relay, joy!


Terry

  

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Teamdougie2Jun-05-05 01:21 PM
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#932, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 7
Jun-05-05 01:24 PM by dougie2



          

Matt- The fielding PWM Idle code is coming along. http://msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=8564

I'm thinking we could manually set an idle speed by fabbing up an idle speed screw or adjusting the throttle plate. Then use the PWM Idle code and a Ford valve for warmup.



Doug

Xtreme Performance Services

Race Engines · Transmissions · Turbo Systems · EFI & Tuning · Fabrication · Welding
www.xtremefabrications.com

  

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TeamXtremeRSJun-05-05 01:34 PM
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#933, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 8
Jun-05-05 01:36 PM by XtremeRS

          

Originally posted by dougie2
Matt- The fielding PWM Idle code is coming along. http://msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=8564 I'm thinking we could manually set an idle speed by fabbing up an idle speed screw or adjusting the throttle plate. Then use the PWM Idle code and a Ford valve for warmup.


Yep, i've been thinking along those lines also..Either that, or a solenoid valve that can let extra air into the the motor for a fast idle. A perfect place to ingest this air is the EVAP line, right on top of the TB. I took that line off while idling, and it raised rpm to like 1400, so that is plenty of air to fast idle with. Only problem is finding a valve that flows enough air. I've already tried using the EVAP solenoid, but it wont flow enough air..

Either way, we are going to have to remove and plug the stock IAC air bypass port, because at least on my car, the pintle gets pushed in when going into boost, and comimg back to an idle, the rpm is much greater. Not a big deal to fix though..

I've already drilled out the TB stop adjustment screw cover- its only a thin metal cap over it- and that reveals the torx head throttle stop bolt. I just turned that bolt in to raise the idle, then unplugged the IAC. But the higher idle after boost problem is still there, and cold start you have to keep your foot on the gas.


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)

My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  

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Teamdougie2Jun-05-05 01:54 PM
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#934, "RE: Spark issue at 15 psi with MS running ignition"
In response to Reply # 9
Jun-05-05 01:55 PM by dougie2



          

You can actually remove the IAC and drill it out and tap it. Then you can use that for a fast idle solenoid/valve. This way you can leave the EVAP line connected or use that port for your BOV reference.



Doug

Xtreme Performance Services

Race Engines · Transmissions · Turbo Systems · EFI & Tuning · Fabrication · Welding
www.xtremefabrications.com

  

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