This thread could go a bazzilion (is that a real number?) ways. I know we get caught up in making hp and going faster. Lately our cars suspension and how they handle has had me wondering. We have a really wide car and is pretty low slung as far as center of gravity. (COMPARE IT TO A 350Z OR A HONDA) I know our weight balance is a lowsy 60f-40r or 70f-30r. So we do get understeer. I've never seen an eclipse carving corners on video or in person. I also havn't pushed mine hard enough to know. So i was just wondering what kind of experiences other people have had with them.

Here's some bits of what i know and things i'm more than 50% sure on. Feel free to politely correct.

I believe our supension is compiled of mitsubishi's favorite McPherson strut design up front and a independent multi link in the rear. I have a general idea how a McpPherson works and understand it can be a blessing or a curse depending on how its utilized. I've heard a good bit about when an eclipse is lowered it experienses "bump steer" under hard cornering from the upper control arm hitting the top of the strut assembly. I'd think how a McPherson strut exponetially stiffens, using all the components and not just the actual shock, as weight is put on it would make for good steering response because the car wouldn't "drop its shoulder" much before that strut tightened up grabing hard traction making skidding less frequent. I do know that "plowing" because of FWD and weight distibution is gona be near impossible to get rid of...

In my experience around sharp turns; i've found that "ripping" the steering wheel while simultaneously giving a bit more gas tends to countereffect the cars "want" to "plow." By suddenly "powering over."

By "ripping" i mean jerking hard on the steering wheel suddenly and a bit farther than neccesary. After the "ripping" maneuver, you carry on and straighten up around the rest of the turn like normal. It does not skid its just a hard jerk seems to get it going right. I have no power steering though and that may be why i can do that. The turns i have to work with are only short and only have enough length to them to require one "rip", so i don't know how it works on longer turns but i believe it wouldn't be neccesart.

I'm unable to push my car past 45-55mph (on 25mph posted turns) because of safety. note: the legal speed is 45 in those areas. Its just hazarded at 25mph.

I've heard a little from autocrossers, who say its too heavy to be competitive. From what i've seen autox courses are small and tight and are better suited for go-karts.

I'd like oppinion, theory, solutions, truth, experiences. All of it. Good supension parts and upgrades are also what i'm looking for.

Thanks.

This is a general discussion... so... mods, i don't mind a little off topicness. But please feel free to "lay-to-waste" person(s) who start bashing.

I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

Autocross courses better suited for karts? Your full of shit. Again. I have more autocrosses under me than you do. Thats because I have around 25, and you have exactly 0.

And you havent seen Eclipses cornering because you havent searched. A five second search on Youtube will reveal umpteen Eclipses at autocrosses. Oh wait, sorry, I forgot, thats only for karts.

It isnt that the Eclipse is too heavy (it is somewhat heavy),its that the 2gnt ia outclassed for NASA classing, SCCA classing is a bit more fair (IMO). But, you didnt search that out either, and took whatever internet fanboy garbage you dug out as fact. Infact, without a Google search im willing to bet you dont even know what either of those are.

You want solutions? Try not running cut springs up front. Thats right people of 2gnt, he is running factory springs, that he cut to be lower.

And btw, its a hazard 25mph for a reason... one day when you plow into another car or take out a biker because your cut springs handle like ass and you cant control your car, I hope they survive to kick your ass.

Originally posted by Warmage12
This thread could go a bazzilion (is that a real number?) ways. I know we get caught up in making hp and going faster. Lately our cars suspension and how they handle has had me wondering. We have a really wide car and is pretty low slung as far as center of gravity. (COMPARE IT TO A 350Z OR A HONDA) I know our weight balance is a lowsy 60f-40r or 70f-30r. So we do get understeer.

We understeer because we are front wheel drive. When you have X grip for the tires and you are using them to turn, brake, or accelerate, you are splitting the available grip with those functions.

Originally posted by Warmage12
I've never seen an eclipse carving corners on video or in person.

I do it pretty often in my car. Autocross is the best place for me to do it because I can drive 100% and not have to worry about traffic.

Originally posted by Warmage12
I also havn't pushed mine hard enough to know. So i was just wondering what kind of experiences other people have had with them. Here's some bits of what i know and things i'm more than 50% sure on. Feel free to politely correct. I believe our supension is compiled of mitsubishi's favorite McPherson strut design up front and a independent multi link in the rear.

We have a double wishbone front suspension. Not sure if multilink rear is the proper term. I'm pretty sure that you would call it a trailing arm suspension.

Originally posted by Warmage12
I have a general idea how a McpPherson works and understand it can be a blessing or a curse depending on how its utilized. I've heard a good bit about when an eclipse is lowered it experienses "bump steer" under hard cornering from the upper control arm hitting the top of the strut assembly. I'd think how a McPherson strut exponetially stiffens, using all the components and not just the actual shock, as weight is put on it would make for good steering response because the car wouldn't "drop its shoulder" much before that strut tightened up grabing hard traction making skidding less frequent.

If your control arms are hitting the inner fenderwell, you have problems. Bump steer can be attributed to bottoming out the suspension. It can also be attributed to harsh damping on the shocks or high spring rates. This is when the suspension does not properly absorb or damp adequately causing the car to jerk around some.

Originally posted by Warmage12
I do know that "plowing" because of FWD and weight distibution is gona be near impossible to get rid of... In my experience around sharp turns; i've found that "ripping" the steering wheel while simultaneously giving a bit more gas tends to countereffect the cars "want" to "plow." By suddenly "powering over." By "ripping" i mean jerking hard on the steering wheel suddenly and a bit farther than neccesary. After the "ripping" maneuver, you carry on and straighten up around the rest of the turn like normal. It does not skid its just a hard jerk seems to get it going right.

You are not being smooth or fluid. By 'powering out', you are still understeering. You just don't realize that you have a large slip angle. You are essentially turning the wheel much more than it needs to be turned because the tires are slipping. To get a front wheel drive car that is heavy to rotate, you would need to focus on the rear of the car. You will need to limit the amount of grip that you have back there. Removing rear camber typically isn't a good idea on a street car. You would need to inflate your rear tires more. For every 1psi over the suggested limit, you can roughly figure that you will have the same effect as increasing your spring rate 10lbs/inch.
The best way to limit grip would be to install a larger rear sway bar.

Originally posted by Warmage12
I have no power steering though and that may be why i can do that. The turns i have to work with are only short and only have enough length to them to require one "rip", so i don't know how it works on longer turns but i believe it wouldn't be neccesart. I'm unable to push my car past 45-55mph (on 25mph posted turns) because of safety. note: the legal speed is 45 in those areas. Its just hazarded at 25mph.

You should drive responsibly on the street and keep everything else on the track. When you upset the balance of the car in the middle of a turn by 'ripping' the wheel you are forcing more weight to the outside rear of the car. When you tap your brakes because there is an unforeseen obstacle, you will shift the weight forward rapidly unloading the rear suspension causing the car to spin out.

Originally posted by Warmage12
I've heard a little from autocrossers, who say its too heavy to be competitive. From what i've seen autox courses are small and tight and are better suited for go-karts.

Autocrosses are meant to be small and tight. If it were long and sweeping it would probably be NASCAR. Eclipses can be very competitive in there class. If I could get more seat time, I would be more competitive in SM or ESP. I run in SM because no one here runs in ESP. I'm not as competitive as I could be due to a couple of funky mods.

Originally posted by Warmage12
I'd like oppinion, theory, solutions, truth, experiences. All of it. Good supension parts and upgrades are also what i'm looking for. Thanks. This is a general discussion... so... mods, i don't mind a little off topicness. But please feel free to "lay-to-waste" person(s) who start bashing.

This thread scares me.



This kid scares me more...

:rolleyes

Originally posted by djtrickee
This thread scares me. This kid scares me more...

+1

Originally posted by freelancefool
We understeer because we are front wheel drive. When you have X grip for the tires and you are using them to turn, brake, or accelerate, you are splitting the available grip with those functions.

I know all fwd understeer. I guess ours is made worse by our heavy weight. Will an LSD help?

Originally posted by freelancefoolI do it pretty often in my car. Autocross is the best place for me to do it because I can drive 100% and not have to worry about traffic.

Well, videos of GSX'S are pretty common. I've seen one or two of an RS/GS that you know what it is. I've never riden in one or watched one in person. So external first hand experience is limited

Originally posted by freelancefoolWe have a double wishbone front suspension. Not sure if multilink rear is the proper term. I'm pretty sure that you would call it a trailing arm suspension.

I was told it was a Mcpherson strut. But i would take your oppinion over the others anyday...for good reason. Could you say the general idea of the rear is a multi link?...or are the two entirely different things. What are the strengths and weakness of our rears susp. design?

Originally posted by freelancefoolIf your control arms are hitting the inner fenderwell, you have problems. Bump steer can be attributed to bottoming out the suspension. It can also be attributed to harsh damping on the shocks or high spring rates. This is when the suspension does not properly absorb or damp adequately causing the car to jerk around some.

Mine aren'y hitting. I've just heard of it being a problem. That's why i'm askin. I know bump steer is from going tooooo low, and that's not a problem for me. I'm not an "as low as you can go" person. But bump steer from TOO strong dampening? that's a new one to me. I guess if it was lowered and the shock is stiff the whole assembly would move and have to go somewere. by jerk, do you mean left to right or up and down?

Originally posted by freelancefoolYou are not being smooth or fluid. By 'powering out', you are still understeering. You just don't realize that you have a large slip angle. You are essentially turning the wheel much more than it needs to be turned because the tires are slipping. To get a front wheel drive car that is heavy to rotate, you would need to focus on the rear of the car. You will need to limit the amount of grip that you have back there. Removing rear camber typically isn't a good idea on a street car. You would need to inflate your rear tires more. For every 1psi over the suggested limit, you can roughly figure that you will have the same effect as increasing your spring rate 10lbs/inch. The best way to limit grip would be to install a larger rear sway bar.

So i'm just over compensateing in a slide? I figured it was something inaccurate like that but nothing indicated that i was sliding. No tire squeel, smoke, or anything.

So make the back end stiffer all the way around? or just a sway bar? What about other after market suspension things? I know coilovers are def good. What about making my fronts "underinflated" and leaving the rears as normal? would that work too. Antyhing i should do to the front end?

Originally posted by freelancefoolYou should drive responsibly on the street and keep everything else on the track. When you upset the balance of the car in the middle of a turn by 'ripping' the wheel you are forcing more weight to the outside rear of the car. When you tap your brakes because there is an unforeseen obstacle, you will shift the weight forward rapidly unloading the rear suspension causing the car to spin out.

I've only done it twice and i don't anymore. I'd love to do autox but i work two jobs, one full time. And i have no support. No one to go with me or show me what to do, how to sign up and were to go. I've been to the SCCA website and was kinda confused. I never touch the brakes once i'm "in" a hard turn. I've done light, and i mean very light, e-braking. But my front springs are cut, and that 'cut' any feeling i recieve from the front suppension. So i've quit tryin to corner with any sort of force. It did make it noticeably better in drag race...that and the massive wheels i have...

Originally posted by freelancefoolAutocrosses are meant to be small and tight. If it were long and sweeping it would probably be NASCAR. Eclipses can be very competitive in there class. If I could get more seat time, I would be more competitive in SM or ESP. I run in SM because no one here runs in ESP. I'm not as competitive as I could be due to a couple of funky mods.

I understand that completely. I'm not complaining. It kinda has to be that way for it to be a challenge. That;s also why there are classes. And i would think we would be competitive in our class. If i could think of the cars we're up against...

How do you think we'd do against other un-eletronically controlled fwd and even awd...like a gsx or a subaru rs?

I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

Originally posted by Warmage12
So i'm just over compensateing in a slide? I figured it was something inaccurate like that but nothing indicated that i was sliding. No tire squeel, smoke, or anything. So make the back end stiffer all the way around? or just a sway bar? What about other after market suspension things? I know coilovers are def good. What about making my fronts "underinflated" and leaving the rears as normal? would that work too. Antyhing i should do to the front end?

I cant believe that you just asked if you should do anything to your front.

Its called getting rid of your ghetto ass front springs.

Also, you really need to fucking search and read. Everything that you just said is easily found. And if you searched or read anything other than just pulling shit out of your head, you would realize that ALL autocrosses accommodate beginners. Including a briefing, a walk around, and a buddy for the day.

Wow cut front springs. You need to be shot. First thing you need to do, Stop driving your car. Second thing, go on Ebay and buy REAL lowering springs. NOT EBAY BRAND. Get some Tein or Eibach springs. Second, buy a set of KYB AGX shocks. Then, and this is if you can, Install them. Then, Go to a shop and get your Alignment fixed. Then, and only then, should you drive your car. thats just my $.02.

Oh, that should also fix your crappy handeling quite a bit.

Cutting my springs was for purely asthetics reasons. I did the fronts only because i know cutting the springs would ruin my supension. I did it the same night as my new rims and tires and was whne they convinced me. So it was a split sec decision that i really don't care cause i'm getting coilovers later.

...and here's why i didn't just go and buy struts and springs... would i spend $600 9which is around what they cost bought individually at the shop with my discount...which happens to be at cost) on struts and springs wen i can get coilovers for about or under $800. (i work at a performance shop) I don't get paid shit though...and i'm in the middle of forging an engine out. so please...it may be ricey, but my mindset isn't.

I know that my cars suppension is hurt right now, i was totaly against and had avoided it but was eventually pressured into it by my job. I only cut one ring by the way. When you work somelpace like were i do, you gotta look the part...to a certain extent. And nobody knows my car has cut springs unless you ask.

...and if you had READ my posts you't know i said that... and i don't need an echo, tim. Which seems to be what you've been lately...a fucking shadow.

If i can get some actualy advice again, that would be nice.

I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

Originally posted by Warmage12
Cutting my springs was for purely asthetics reasons. I did the fronts only because i know cutting the springs would ruin my supension. I did it the same night as my new rims and tires and was whne they convinced me. So it was a split sec decision that i really don't care cause i'm getting coilovers later. ...and here's why i didn't just go and buy struts and springs... would i spend $600 9which is around what they cost bought individually at the shop with my discount...which happens to be at cost) on struts and springs wen i can get coilovers for about or under $800. (i work at a performance shop) I don't get paid shit though...and i'm in the middle of forging an engine out. so please...it may be ricey, but my mindset isn't. I know that my cars suppension is hurt right now, i was totaly against and had avoided it but was eventually pressured into it by my job. I only cut one ring by the way. When you work somelpace like were i do, you gotta look the part...to a certain extent. And nobody knows my car has cut springs unless you ask. ...and if you had READ my posts you't know i said that... and i don't need an echo, tim. Which seems to be what you've been lately...a fucking shadow. If i can get some actualy advice again, that would be nice. I love my car... I love Horsepower... I love reliability... So why do i own a DSM again?

So your a poser because people at your work pressure you into things? Thats cool. People with no backbone go really far in this world. Try not giving a shit about what anyone thinks.

I just find it ironic that the asshat who cut his springs wants handling. And btw, twenty bucks says you will never buy the fucking coilovers.

you see jesse, tim speaks the truth and for some, if not most of us. I just let tim to the talking. If you don't make any money, and you're forging an engine, i suspect its going to take you a long ass time to build? If this is true, just read this WHOLE site, and when you're done, you can come out of your cave w/ a badass 420a and prove everyone wrong. Only problem is, you are TOOOO DAMMNNNN HARD HEADEDD and your theories/assumptions are soooo off the wall, it makes you look like a true idiot. I agree w/ 95 as to get REAL springs and stop listening to ppl at TDC. And w/ zac's rod? yea, um, why do you THINK that i'm not buying parts from chris? Doesnt take an idiot to figure that out... cmon jesse, just start reading. I never spoke a word on 2gnt until i've read for about 2 YEARS, you right off the bat just start rambling

If you are paying $600 for $900 coilovers, you are probably buying K-Sport coilovers or something along those lines. While they are a step up from stock, the valving on the damper is not the greatest. All of the lower end coilovers are almost exactly the same. They may have different features, but the core of the coilover is the same.

There aren't a whole lot of companies that actually make dampers. KYB, Koni, Tokico, Ohlins, etc. K-sport and the like use the same damper made by the same company.

If you are going to shell out the money for a good set of coilovers, honestly, be prepared to spend about $1800. Get some JIC Magic FTL-A2s or some KW Type IIIs if you are looking for a really nice setup.

With whatever coilover setup you go with, be prepared to spend a bit of money on alignments as you adjust camber, castor, and toe to get the desired ride/response when tuning your setup.

I'll answer your other questions later.

We do alot of buisness with megan racing. Their stuff has improved alot. Some of you may remeber when they weren't that great. Well, their stuff is cheap and really good. Coilovers from them are a bargain even at normal prices and are alot better designed than anything in their price range.

What brand is your preferance on the sway bars?

I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

RMDSM.

Originally posted by Warmage12
We do alot of buisness with megan racing. Their stuff has improved alot. Some of you may remeber when they weren't that great. Well, their stuff is cheap and really good. Coilovers from them are a bargain even at normal prices and are alot better designed than anything in their price range.

Koni Yellows + Ground Control Sleeves + Eibach springs will be just as nice if not nicer with more control over the spring rates and valving.

Originally posted by Warmage12
What brand is your preferance on the sway bars?

I don't have a preference on swaybars. I have an RS and haven't finished converting it to a rear swaybar setup. I just modify my driving style at AutoX to get the car to rotate around when I need it to.

Is there a link to the process of converting an RS to a have a rear sway bar?

thanks for all your help.

I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

Originally posted by Warmage12
Is there a link to the process of converting an RS to a have a rear sway bar? thanks for all your help. I love my car... I love Horsepower... I love reliability... So why do i own a DSM again?

I have it at home.

Took me forty five minutes. Noticable difference.

it would be much appreciated. I'm searching for links to using the other model sway bars too. Such as the gs, gst, and gsx sways.


I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

http://forums.2gnt.com/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=6&topic_id=30160&mode=full

Information I posted a while back when I was looking for information on installing a rear swaybar.

So the best route is the rear control arms that are already tapped for the rear sway bars. That sounds easy enough. I also read somewere on hear that leaving the small front one and putting a big rear one on is best...

I'm gona look up the kit too but i already know of a junk yard i'm gona hit up for those parts.

Also, i had some questions on the differences in understear and torque steer. What's the difference?...if there is any.

I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

:+

Originally posted by mojorob
:+

+1 for most useless post this year.

Originally posted by mojorob
:+

But -1 for being a total moron.

freelance, that is the most hilarious avatar you have i've ever seen

clay, did you find those parts for your sway bar set up? if you have pics of it you should post them. i would like to see.

I found a listing a long time ago with the part numbers that you need. If I weren't about to crash I would dig it up again. I'll see what I can find for you tomorrow.

I wish we could all get along...coming back to these forums after a couple years and seeing this post is depressing.

I miss the days when we all helped each other and we weren't so negative to the BANME!s, even if they are being stupid. Half of this post was just bashing the author for his setup. On a side note, I like the TEIN Flex coilovers but they are pricey.