Fuel System
/Wahlbro 255lph fuel pump
/450CC injectors
/Holley 12:1 FMU
/SAFC II
*always 93 octane gas

Ignition Mods
NGK (non-iridium)spark plugs
MSD Coil Pack
MSD wires


This is a long story but it's been a problem for two years since I've installed turbo. The first month I had the turbo on the car, fuel response was perfect. After that month, I would give the car high throttle and it wouldn't increase speed very fast at all. I assumed my clutch was going out so I had it replaced with a high performance clutch.

After this, the problem continued, so I thought to look at my gauges when the problem was happening. It was leaning out. By this time I had increased boost to 10lbs so I was certain the stock injectors were going out. For this I replaced the injectors with the 450cc set and installed an SAFC II. Still the problem continues.

At 60mph in 5th gear, if I apply more than 20% or so extra throttle at a time the car will lean out and start stuttering. This also occurs at highway speeds if I ease into boost at 5th gear. My solution to this WAS dropping to 3rd gear and pinning it. Up until last week, if I dropped to 3rd at 60mph and gave it full throttle, it would lean out for 2-4 seconds and then get the fuel it needed. Last week, I dropped to 3rd and pinned it, and it wouldn't give it fuel at all. It stayed lean and started popping so I let off and drove as easy as I could.

If I'm in the lower gears, the fuel tends to respond better. First gear from stop, for example, rarely leans out. But second gear is starting to lean out as it increases in boost UNLESS it's at full throttle. But 3rd, 4th, and 5th have to increase speed VERY slowly to keep from leaning out. It's like the fuel isn't responding... I mean I have the fuel system for this. Currently I'm set at 10lbs of boost, but it was doing it at 5lbs of boost. I really need some help with this.

Could it be a bad MAP sensor, knock sensor, the absense of a Missing Link, ignition problems?

i am not a expert but i don't think you can use a 12:1 fmu and the 450 injectors without a standalone. i don't think the safc can control those bad boys. i don't know of anyone that has got this to work right.

With that setup, it sounds more like your car is running pig rich, you've fouled the O2 sensor, and it is sputtering because it is drowning in gas rather then leaning out. I am very sure that a 12:1 FMU is much too great a rising rate for use with 450cc injectors.

1995 Eagle Talon ESi

What about a missing link or voltage clamp? I dont think I have either of these.

Will someone check this FMU to make sure it's 12:1??? It might not be.

http://www.holley.com/products.asp?product=512-505

I eat emo kids for breakfast

1995 Eagle Talon (SOLD)
72' SuperBeetle
72' Standard Beetle
56' Deluxe Beetle

Originally posted by Blizare

Originally posted by evotunedscc What about a missing link or voltage clamp? I dont think I have either of these.

You don't think?? That is a very important part of the fuel system if your car is newer than 95' How could you have had the car turbo'd without KNOWING about signals above 4.7 Volts cause a fuel cut I think the safc is useless regardless of your mods and the 12:1 fmu is TOTally wrong for 450cc injectors. lol You should be running like 3-5:1 with an SFMU or some standalone.....but not on stock internals. The fuel delivery problem is partly because it takes a second to raise fuel pressures so you can't really FLOOR IT cause it will take a sec for the fmu to see the boosted condition and thus raiase the pressure. But thats not your problem. Super dooper rich is your problem my friend. EDIT: I can't tell you what discs are in the FP regulator you have cause it's not in front of me. Thats up to you to tell us what your running in there. What you have IS an adjustable FMU. So thats good. You just need to know whats inside. Do you have a fuel pressure gauge? If so, find out what you idle FP is and go boost and tell us what you FP is at 5psi or whatever.

1995 Eagle Talon ESi

k, thnx for the help first of all. I know you're wondering how I can have all this stuff and not know everything about it. I had a small performance business in BG, Ky. We checked idle Fuel Pressure and it was 55-60lbs. Any suggestions?

1995 Eagle Talon ESi

So you think maybe the wrong disc in the FMU? Or would it be something with having no voltage clamp or missing link? Like I said, the first month everything was installed the car was running great... from fifth gear I could give it throttle and it would go. Now if i give it throttle in fifth gear it uses whatever it has in raw horsepower to increase speed but as it goes into boosting it starts all that leaning out (according to a/f gauge) and stuttering crap. It's like this happens when there's not much hp already built up and it has to build hp from boost. By the way, the car has a rebuilt bottom end with forged parts - rods, pistons, headwork, etc. So it should be ready for all this but this fuel issue has been haunting me since a month after turbocharging.

And I guess ur right about the 4:1 fmu. For some reason I had in my mind 12:1. But this is my fmu, looks exactly like it anyway, haha.

could it be some sort of fuel cut issue? If he doesnt have a missing link installed, isnt that what you get?

RS-T almost complete:
Evo III Small 16g
1st Gen BOV
Custom Manifold
Autometer Gauges
Vortech FMU
Walbro Fuel Pump
Starion Front Mount
Manuel Boost Controller

Best Stock Time: 15.6 @ 88 mph

What year is your car? that would help to figure out whether or not you need a ML or not.
I beleive if it is 95-96 it doesnt need one. correct me if Im wrong.

big-block Chevys to boosted DSM's; hey if it goes fast, and sounds good, that is all that really matters.

like all these guys said, the year of your car is going to affect what we suggest next. What year is it?

1995 Eagle Talon ESi

It's a 1999 RS.

definetly try a missing limk

Erg ... there are so many things wrong and so many things that you still need to tell us. A few things you need to tell us first ...

1. What are your settings in your AFC2? You can idle 450cc/min injectors on stock FP with the proper settings.

Oh BTW, 96+ idle FP is 52psi (roughly). It is not vacuum regulated at all! So it's 52psi ALL THE TIME regardless of how much you're on it. There is no vac line to the stock FPR that is located by the fuel tank.

2. So you have a Holley FMU. Are you still using the stock FPR? If you are I am suprised that you see 55psi and higher FP at idle. More info on the fuel setup please.

3. Get a voltage clamp or a missing link (I vote voltage clamp). You need to prevent the ECU from seeing the MAP sensor voltage higher than 4.7V. If it sees this condition you'll get fuel cut.

This doesn't seem to be your issue because you said it ran fine the first month. This isn't one of those things that just start magically happening. Are you sure there isn't some voltage clamp already on the car?

4. What is your FP under boost? This will be the only way to accurately determine what your current FP rise rate is.

5. Turn down your boost. Don't run 10psi if you have fuel issues. Especially on your stock motor. Run the least amount you can.

-"Easy Mac"
05 Mazda RX-8 (RR8 #88)
99 Eclipse RS 398whp & 372lb-ft

1995 Eagle Talon ESi

Okay. First question. Do you have any sort of voltage clamp or missing link. If you don't know what that is or does search "voltage clamp"
If you dooo know what it is then you should know where the Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor is and it's function so go out and look at the manifold and see what's there.

How do you know your running Lean or Rich? You don't have a wideband in your mods. Are you using an Autometer Gauge?

Are you one of those people that we all wish WE could sell our cars too

Just go, check out a car.

(GUY) yea it's got a aftermarket turbo but the cars a non-turbo originally
(YOU) Anything wrong with it?
(GUY) Nope.
(YOU) Cool, Does it make that sweet Pssssh!! sound?
(GUY) Yup.
(YOU) I'll Take it! Whoot! Car ya start it up for me now so I can hear the engine
(GUY) Sure, It's yours Man. (OMG WHAT AN IDIOT)
(YOU) YAYY look at me girls I go PSSSHH!!.........crash.


I'm just joking, but thats the only goofy thing about this post is that you have a model that NEEDS attention to the MAP sensor and you don't even know about it Did the person you got it from tell you all the involvement you'll need to have in this car to keep it running properly??

I'm bitchy cause I need Food. Sorry.

But if you can't realize we need to know more about this car to HELP YOU and I am committed to helping people. so help us help you.

/end rant

I eat emo kids for breakfast

1995 Eagle Talon (SOLD)
72' SuperBeetle
72' Standard Beetle
56' Deluxe Beetle

Well I'm the original person to mod the car. It was my first car 6 years ago with only 20k miles on it. It was stock and I added body modifications and about the time the tuner scene got hot around my area there was a small performance company open up in bowling green, ky. I didn't know much about how to install my own turbo setup so I gave them the money to do it. At first everything was awesome, then slowly it stopped responding to throttle like it should. I do not have a missing link or a voltage clamp. I know what a missing link is, not too sure of it's functionality. And I have a basic understanding of what a voltage clamp does, but dont really understand how it installs or where to buy one.

I've looked arond on the internet and keep finding random crap that doesn't help me out any. So can someone explain to me a voltage clamp and missing link and tell me how these relate to the Hahn FCD. Also, which of these three items can I use with an SAFC II?

Okay, I would take the SAFC out in my opinion.

Read this thread

http://forums.2gnt.com/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=90261&mesg_id=90261&listing_type=search

http://forums.2gnt.com/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=30633&mesg_id=30633&listing_type=search

http://forums.2gnt.com/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=12821&mesg_id=12821&listing_type=search

and this thread

http://forums.2gnt.com/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=83897&mesg_id=83897&listing_type=search

I eat emo kids for breakfast

1995 Eagle Talon (SOLD)
72' SuperBeetle
72' Standard Beetle
56' Deluxe Beetle

But first I think I'd find out what your fuel pressure is while boosting cause it could also be that it's raising it too much or not enough....also, do you have a wideband o2 sensor? How do you know your rich or lean.

I think you should really bring the car to someone who knows what they're doing.

Take note kids. This is EXACTLY why it pays to do your own turbo installation.

I eat emo kids for breakfast

1995 Eagle Talon (SOLD)
72' SuperBeetle
72' Standard Beetle
56' Deluxe Beetle

Dude look, I've brought the car to a certified mechanic who graduated from NADC when they were an awesome school, he can't even figure out what's going on. If ya'll wanna sit here and hound on me about not knowing my stuff then just dont talk because it's not helping get the problem fixed. I'm not a total dumbass, I've listed the symptoms. According to the autometer air/fuel gauge and a narrowband O2 sensor the car just leans out when I give it fuel. This is the worst in 5th gear. It's not fuel cut because the engine continues to run.

Say for example I'm in 5th gear at 60mph. I increase throttle to 40% to pick up speed or climb a hill. As the needle crosses into boost it fuel cuts. However, if im at the same speed and in 5th gear and give the car full throttle, it will NOT fuel cut, but it will lean out really badly. The solution to this problem used to be to drop to 3rd gear where it already has power at that speed and give it full throttle.... it would lean out for 2-4 seconds and then go stoich like it should. As an indication the problem is worsening, the last time I did this... I dropped to 3rd, the car leaned out and then fuel cut. From there on home I drove the car as easily as possible. But normally it didn't fuel cut, it would just lean out for a little bit, then go stoich/rich.

I know you guys are telling me to check fuel pressure at idle and wot... but im at school and wont see the car till this weekend so I wont be able to check it until then.

I also have a large EVAP leak I cant get rid of if that helps any.

I just need to try and get it fixed so I can see about selling it. I've learned that if you want a fast car, buy one. Turbocharging a car that was never meant to be turbocharged just isn't worth it. I've fought with this problem for 2 years and I've just thrown in dollar after dollar for fuel system mods and engine rebuilds trying to get it running like it should, but clearly it's just not happening.

-"Easy Mac"
05 Mazda RX-8 (RR8 #88)
99 Eclipse RS 398whp & 372lb-ft

--------------------
99 GS-Turbo 3.55 MTX
S16G @ ~15psi - FMIC - Forged Internals
Clinton Township, MI

Status: Parting Out...

Dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to say anyone here is less knowledgable than the mechanic I've had working on the car recently. Blizare told me to take the car to someone who knew what they're doing. Clearly I've done that. This is my last resort, if anyone would know how to fix my problem someone here should. The only thing is I dont know a whole lot about the fuel system and I really dont wanna spend much more money on a wideband or portfueler or anything like that. It's just not worth it to me. Hopefully I'll get a car soon that was built to do what I want it to do, but for now I just want 15lbs of boost and I'm just trying to figure out what's going on. I've got the internals and mostly everything else I need for it. It's just this damn problem seems to be sticking around for the long run.

To keep this simple, check fuel pressure at idle and boost. Get a voltage clamp and ditch the SAFC. Anything else?

I eat emo kids for breakfast

1995 Eagle Talon (SOLD)
72' SuperBeetle
72' Standard Beetle
56' Deluxe Beetle

maybe your fuel pump is takin a crap if its not railing fp's

I eat emo kids for breakfast

1995 Eagle Talon (SOLD)
72' SuperBeetle
72' Standard Beetle
56' Deluxe Beetle

Update: I installed the missing link and it seemed to help a little. It no longer totally cuts fuel, but the fuel still isn't responding to the throttle in the higher gears at low RPMs. So that still didn't fix my problem. Still, in the higher gears (3,4,5) when I apply throttle, the only response is all turbo and not much out of the engine. The turbo spools really loud and the damn car just doesn't increase speed much at all. It just doesn't seem to get any power in these gears unless full throttle is applied at higher than 4500 rpms. Fuel response in the lower gears is good, but isn't reliable unless she's at wot. 40%-90% throttle in the lower gears is just unpredictable, sometimes the engine responds to the turbo like it should and sometimes it's all turbo and no engine again.

The next step is to check fuel pressure at idle and under boost. With my 450cc injectors I'm gonna turn fp down to 50lbs at idle and 110lbs at 9lbs of boost. I also have to check and see which disc is in the FMU, depending on which disc is in I might put one of the others in. Not sure why I'd need higher than a 1:1 rise rate tho?

Any other suggestions? BTW, does anyone very knowlegable of this engine being turbocharged live within a 200 mile radius of Nashville, TN? lol
The motor has just been rebuilt with forged internals and high perf. parts and im afraid it might have to get done again if I dont get someone who knows a lot about the specifics of this motor and turbocharging it to look at my issue.

I eat emo kids for breakfast

1995 Eagle Talon (SOLD)
72' SuperBeetle
72' Standard Beetle
56' Deluxe Beetle

Originally posted by Blizare

Originally posted by evotunedscc With my 450cc injectors I'm gonna turn fp down to 50lbs at idle and 110lbs at 9lbs of boost.

Okay. stock idle FP is 45-47psi. 235cc injectors. Why are you going to run 450's at a higher pressure. Search for sfmu setups with 440's. You have to run pretty low idle fuel pressures with anything that large, and fuel spray quality will be poor with idle pressures under 20 psi. Just search. I don't feel like doing it for you right now. EDIT: I think you'll need about a 3:1 raise in fp but i'm not sure how much boost your trying to push so i can't really tell you what your static & WOT boost shuold be around.

-"Easy Mac"
05 Mazda RX-8 (RR8 #88)
99 Eclipse RS 398whp & 372lb-ft

okay. 52 psi then. I'm a 95, so sue me

Okay all i'm getting at is there are many people who run this setup. I don't but I'm just trying to keep this going and help this guy out.

.

I eat emo kids for breakfast

1995 Eagle Talon (SOLD)
72' SuperBeetle
72' Standard Beetle
56' Deluxe Beetle

Thnx guys I appreciate the help. Keep it up tho 'cause I gotta get this fixed!!!!!

anyone got any new ideas on this problem yet?

2002 WRX
Eclipse RS-T..sold

Yea that def. a good idea but you'd think since a custom shop did the work they'd know that

I eat emo kids for breakfast

1995 Eagle Talon (SOLD)
72' SuperBeetle
72' Standard Beetle
56' Deluxe Beetle

Thanks man, I'll give her a try. I haven't looked to see how they hooked that up, but it's def. worth a shot.

Any of you guys leave near ky or tn??

Any chance this could be caused by my BOV venting into open atmosphere rather than back into the intake??

2002 WRX
Eclipse RS-T..sold

THat only pertains to a car with a MAS (air flow sensor). We have a MAP sensor which reads the manifold pressure instead of air flow.

On the silvia I have it venting to the atmosphere and it uses a Z32 AFM from a 300zxTT. Everytime I do a WOT pull through the gears, it backfires and blows a little flame out the exhaust cause of a rich condition.

I eat emo kids for breakfast

1995 Eagle Talon (SOLD)
72' SuperBeetle
72' Standard Beetle
56' Deluxe Beetle

Some guys also suggested fixing leaks through a boost leak test and also getting a data logger to use when driving. Any suggestions on these ideas?