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powelldsNov-08-05 09:51 PM
Member since Jul 06th 2003
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#91268, "Tuning questions"




          

Thanks so far guys, I am soon to purchase the Zeitronix Wideband O2 and EGT option, I have been reading my ass of and am somewhat understanding where I need to be, my questions are as follows:
I want to run 15psi with the mods I have listed in my sig, what would my target AFR be? I am thinking going for 11.3:1? That's just my guess from what I think I understand. 91 octane is as high as it goes here, also my egt's should only be around 1400 correct? Also, I have no ignition control, it's all stock. I've got 440 injectors and the SFMU, so, anything I might be overlooking or any advice, I would greatly appreciate. Thanks thus far though, since 2 years ago, I have learned how to build my own car and now turbo it, by just reading on this site and nowhere else. I am my own mechanic now because of this site, so, bring me to the next level of boosting. TIA.
~Jeffo



Top end: Ported and polished head, REV stainless Valves, Crower stage 2 cams, Crower valve springs and titanium retainers, SBI rockers and lashers, Fidanza Cam gears, ARP Headstuds.
Bottom end: JE 8.8:1 pistons, Eagle H-beam rods, Balance rotating assembly, Clevitte Rod and Main bearings, Melling oil pump, Crank scraper, carter water pump.
Ignition: MSD Coil, MSD wires, NGK iridium spark plugs.
Bolt ons: MP 60mm throttle body, ported and polished intake manifold gasket matched, Magnaflow catback, high flow cat, Unorthodox UDP, Ground wire kit.
Suspension: Eibach Ground control coilovers, KYB AGX gas adjustable struts, Strut tower bars.
Drivetrain: SPEC stage 4 clutch
Body/Interior: VIS Evo carbon fiber hood, stock red body, stock black 16" rims. Ractive carbon shift boot and ebrake boot, Ractive carbon blue gauges (boost, oil press., volts, and cluster, blue underseat lights.
Installing at the moment: Garrett t3/t04e stage 2 water cooled turbo, RC 440cc injectors, Vortech SFMU, HKS SSQV BOV, Star FMIC and piping, Star manifold, 3" Downpipe, Tial 38mm WG, Walbro 255 fuel pump, Missing link.

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: Tuning questions, Blizare, Nov-09-05 04:40 AM, #1
RE: Tuning questions, mcgyvr, Nov-09-05 05:33 AM, #2
      RE: Tuning questions, Blizare, Nov-09-05 06:18 AM, #3
           RE: Tuning questions, BumpinTalon, Nov-09-05 06:23 AM, #4
                RE: Tuning questions, Blizare, Nov-09-05 08:13 AM, #5
                     RE: Tuning questions, powellds, Nov-09-05 12:25 PM, #6
                     RE: Tuning questions, Matt_95tgs, Nov-09-05 05:48 PM, #7
                          RE: Tuning questions, powellds, Nov-09-05 09:45 PM, #8
                          RE: Tuning questions, Blizare, Nov-10-05 05:02 AM, #9
                          RE: Tuning questions, Matt_95tgs, Nov-10-05 03:43 PM, #10
                          RE: Tuning questions, BumpinTalon, Nov-10-05 06:05 AM, #11
                               RE: Tuning questions, Blizare, Nov-10-05 07:08 AM, #12
                               RE: Tuning questions, Matt_95tgs, Nov-10-05 03:37 PM, #13
                                    RE: Tuning questions, Matt_95tgs, Nov-10-05 05:27 PM, #14
                                         RE: Tuning questions, BumpinTalon, Nov-10-05 06:10 PM, #15
                                              RE: Tuning questions, corsagsbo, Nov-11-05 03:45 AM, #16
                                                   RE: Tuning questions, sike, Nov-13-05 09:42 AM, #17

BlizareNov-09-05 04:40 AM
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#91275, "RE: Tuning questions"
In response to Reply # 0




          

as far as I can see the only way you'd be able to "TUNE" anything is just by raising and lowering your fuel pressures.

Ignition control is where it's at dood. Even though you have a wideband it's not like you can tell your ecu that you want your target WOT A/F at 11.3.

megasquirt is tuning. an SFMU is not....really ....tuning. even though thats how my car is setup.

Not next year though emoji


I eat emo kids for breakfast

1995 Eagle Talon (SOLD)
72' SuperBeetle
72' Standard Beetle
56' Deluxe Beetle

  

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mcgyvrNov-09-05 05:33 AM
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#91277, "RE: Tuning questions"
In response to Reply # 1


          

yeah with all that money spent on your parts list I would def go megaquirt or similar setup. its a shame you can probably find TONS of power with a complete tune. pulling/adding fuel/timing here and there.

1998 dodge avenger 4 cyl AT
Mods are:
Not enough

  

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BlizareNov-09-05 06:18 AM
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#91279, "RE: Tuning questions"
In response to Reply # 2




          

Originally posted by mcgyvr
its a shame you can probably find TONS of power with a complete tune. pulling/adding fuel/timing here and there.


My point exactly.


I eat emo kids for breakfast

1995 Eagle Talon (SOLD)
72' SuperBeetle
72' Standard Beetle
56' Deluxe Beetle

  

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BumpinTalonNov-09-05 06:23 AM
Member since Mar 23rd 2004
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#91280, "RE: Tuning questions"
In response to Reply # 3
Nov-09-05 06:23 AM by BumpinTalon



          

Originally posted by Blizare
Originally posted by mcgyvr its a shame you can probably find TONS of power with a complete tune. pulling/adding fuel/timing here and there.
My point exactly.


x3
turbo hondas are making 300whp on 1.8 liter stock bottom ends boosting like 12psi up here, just because they have tuned them so well.


1995 Eagle Talon ESi

  

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BlizareNov-09-05 08:13 AM
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#91281, "RE: Tuning questions"
In response to Reply # 4
Nov-09-05 08:13 AM by Blizare



          

Originally posted by BumpinTalon
Originally posted by Blizare
Originally posted by mcgyvr its a shame you can probably find TONS of power with a complete tune. pulling/adding fuel/timing here and there.
My point exactly.
x3 turbo hondas are making 300whp on 1.8 liter stock bottom ends boosting like 12psi up here, just because they have tuned them so well.


Yea man. Hondata or any other standalone for that matter gives any motor more power. My friend steve has an FD3S and when he got the powerFc running and tuned his way it made 350 whp on a mustang dyno.

Then after many many hours of reading and changing parameters and and playing with startup enrichements and leading and trailing ignition numbers blah blah blah......it made 603 whp.

over 250 whp from tuning.

y helo thar.




I eat emo kids for breakfast

1995 Eagle Talon (SOLD)
72' SuperBeetle
72' Standard Beetle
56' Deluxe Beetle

  

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powelldsNov-09-05 12:25 PM
Member since Jul 06th 2003
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#91296, "RE: Tuning questions"
In response to Reply # 5




          

First off thanks for the help and advice. I really want to go megasaquirt, but I am really really in the dark when it comes to using it, I have a laptop and the know how to hook it up, but as far as tuning, I might as well go ride my bike and save myself the trouble. I've been on MSEFI.com and read a lot, but still just don't get it, I am more of a hands on kinda person and would learn way faster that way. Am I missing some really good articles on how megasquirt works? I just don't know. Anyone have an idea on what I should do at this point? My motor is pretty much built to the balls with almost every bolt on, I would love to use megasquirt, is there like a simulator or something you can use? emoji Any way, thanks let me know if you got anything else for me.

  

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Matt_95tgsNov-09-05 05:48 PM
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#91309, "RE: Tuning questions"
In response to Reply # 5


          

Originally posted by Blizare
Originally posted by BumpinTalon
Originally posted by Blizare
Originally posted by mcgyvr its a shame you can probably find TONS of power with a complete tune. pulling/adding fuel/timing here and there.
My point exactly.
x3 turbo hondas are making 300whp on 1.8 liter stock bottom ends boosting like 12psi up here, just because they have tuned them so well.
Yea man. Hondata or any other standalone for that matter gives any motor more power. My friend steve has an FD3S and when he got the powerFc running and tuned his way it made 350 whp on a mustang dyno. Then after many many hours of reading and changing parameters and and playing with startup enrichements and leading and trailing ignition numbers blah blah blah......it made 603 whp. over 250 whp from tuning. y helo thar.


First off, BS on the 300 whp 1.8L hondas running 12 psi. Do the math, it ain't happenin. Not without some serious supporting mods.

Second, the guy with the 250 whp gain from tuning... either BS, or you don't have your facts straight (like he also added more boost...), or the initial tune was soooooo ridiculously far out of wack on that rotary it isn't even funny.

You definitely don't need a standalone to run 15 psi. I'll tell you first hand that you can run 15 psi with the sfmu and 440 cc/min injectors with a safe tune. If I were you though, I would use all stainless braided or hard fuel lines if you plan to do this long term. With your fuel pressure changing so dramatically all the time, I'd want the piece of mind that you aren't going to rupture a line. I'm not saying that a megasquirt wouldn't be better because obviously it would, but, is it worth the headache just to run 15 psi... I doubt it.

I use the 034eic (8 injectors) on my car which has no timing control with no problems. On pump gas I can run up to 17 psi before I get any knock and on 110 gas I have run 26 psi many many times. Full ignition control is nice to have (I know, I run the AEM EMS on my GSX), but not totally necessary in your case just yet.


Matt
1995 Eclipse GS
2.0L, S16g Turbo, 8 Injectors, 26psi

1998 Eclipse GSX
2.3L Stroker, AEM EMS Converted to Speed Density, FP3065 Turbo, 35psi , and so on...

  

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powelldsNov-09-05 09:45 PM
Member since Jul 06th 2003
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#91310, "RE: Tuning questions"
In response to Reply # 7




          

I do have SS lines for my fuel system except for the feed to the rail, but the line back to the fuel pump from the SFMU is SS bradied, and from the test port on the rail. I just am so damn lost when it comes to fuel maps, VE tables and whatnot. Just need to learn a lot more. Thanks for the input fellas. More......
~Jeffo



Top end: Ported and polished head, REV stainless Valves, Crower stage 2 cams, Crower valve springs and titanium retainers, SBI rockers and lashers, Fidanza Cam gears, ARP Headstuds.
Bottom end: JE 8.8:1 pistons, Eagle H-beam rods, Balance rotating assembly, Clevitte Rod and Main bearings, Melling oil pump, Crank scraper, carter water pump.
Ignition: MSD Coil, MSD wires, NGK iridium spark plugs.
Bolt ons: MP 60mm throttle body, ported and polished intake manifold gasket matched, Magnaflow catback, high flow cat, Unorthodox UDP, Ground wire kit.
Suspension: Eibach Ground control coilovers, KYB AGX gas adjustable struts, Strut tower bars.
Drivetrain: SPEC stage 4 clutch
Body/Interior: VIS Evo carbon fiber hood, stock red body, stock black 16" rims. Ractive carbon shift boot and ebrake boot, Ractive carbon blue gauges (boost, oil press., volts, and cluster, blue underseat lights.
Installing at the moment: Garrett t3/t04e stage 2 water cooled turbo, RC 440cc injectors, Vortech SFMU, HKS SSQV BOV, Star FMIC and piping, Star manifold, 3" Downpipe, Tial 38mm WG, Walbro 255 fuel pump, Missing link.

  

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BlizareNov-10-05 05:02 AM
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#91313, "RE: Tuning questions"
In response to Reply # 7
Nov-10-05 05:06 AM by Blizare



          

Originally posted by Matt_95tgs
Second, the guy with the 250 whp gain from tuning... either BS, or you don't have your facts straight (like he also added more boost


Of course he added more boost silly boy. He could after it was tuned. It now runs 26 psi on race gas now. The car has over 50K into it though and 1 spare 13B and a 3 rotor 20b sitting in the shop waiting for the other to blow up emoji emoji



But that isn't why we're here now is it. We're just telling this dude that an SFMU sucks at 15 psi and there is no "Tuning" involved emoji It will work no problem and run the car but it won't be TUNED. For gods sake if someone says the word TUNED without mention of some sort of ecu eprom modification or standalone, I don't know what they're smoking.

Until you have the ability to adjust AFR and timing the car isn't tuned.

imo.


I eat emo kids for breakfast

1995 Eagle Talon (SOLD)
72' SuperBeetle
72' Standard Beetle
56' Deluxe Beetle

  

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Matt_95tgsNov-10-05 03:43 PM
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#91328, "RE: Tuning questions"
In response to Reply # 9


          

Gotcha. The way I read your original post, I thought you meant that all he did was tune it to get those gains. That would be a bit ridiculous emoji.

Matt
1995 Eclipse GS
2.0L, S16g Turbo, 8 Injectors, 26psi

1998 Eclipse GSX
2.3L Stroker, AEM EMS Converted to Speed Density, FP3065 Turbo, 35psi , and so on...

  

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BumpinTalonNov-10-05 06:05 AM
Member since Mar 23rd 2004
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#91314, "RE: Tuning questions"
In response to Reply # 7
Nov-10-05 06:07 AM by BumpinTalon



          

Originally posted by Matt_95tgs First off, BS on the 300 whp 1.8L hondas running 12 psi. Do the math, it ain't happenin. Not without some serious supporting mods.


sure, like a new fuel pump and bigger injectors. here's his dyno chart. http://www.pomped.ca/photos/beyond/308whp.jp g (take out the space)
we have another guy with a 2.0 Honda making 406whp on only 12psi as well, far bigger turbo though along with some better supporting mods, but he has made more power on far less boost then anyone here has made.


1995 Eagle Talon ESi

  

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BlizareNov-10-05 07:08 AM
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#91315, "RE: Tuning questions"
In response to Reply # 11




          

Originally posted by BumpinTalon
Originally posted by Matt_95tgs First off, BS on the 300 whp 1.8L hondas running 12 psi. Do the math, it ain't happenin. Not without some serious supporting mods.
sure, like a new fuel pump and bigger injectors. here's his dyno chart. http://www.pomped.ca/photos/beyond/308whp.jp g (take out the space) we have another guy with a 2.0 Honda making 406whp on only 12psi as well, far bigger turbo though along with some better supporting mods, but he has made more power on far less boost then anyone here has made.



nice chart. on a mustang dyno even emoji


I eat emo kids for breakfast

1995 Eagle Talon (SOLD)
72' SuperBeetle
72' Standard Beetle
56' Deluxe Beetle

  

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Matt_95tgsNov-10-05 03:37 PM
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#91327, "RE: Tuning questions"
In response to Reply # 11


          

Originally posted by BumpinTalon
Originally posted by Matt_95tgs First off, BS on the 300 whp 1.8L hondas running 12 psi. Do the math, it ain't happenin. Not without some serious supporting mods.
sure, like a new fuel pump and bigger injectors. here's his dyno chart. http://www.pomped.ca/photos/beyond/308whp.jp g (take out the space) we have another guy with a 2.0 Honda making 406whp on only 12psi as well, far bigger turbo though along with some better supporting mods, but he has made more power on far less boost then anyone here has made.


That's a nice dyno graph, but I still highly doubt that he was running 12 psi at the time. Were you there looking at the boost gauge when that dyno run was made?

Matt
1995 Eclipse GS
2.0L, S16g Turbo, 8 Injectors, 26psi

1998 Eclipse GSX
2.3L Stroker, AEM EMS Converted to Speed Density, FP3065 Turbo, 35psi , and so on...

  

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Matt_95tgsNov-10-05 05:27 PM
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#91329, "RE: Tuning questions"
In response to Reply # 13


          

I forgot to add... Mustang dynos have a reputation for not being very accurate with their numbers. The reason is because they don't use a large enough counterweight to accurately measure power. They work great for seeing how much extra power you got of a new mod though. I'd be willing to bet that your friend is closer to the 250-260 range if he really is running 12 psi.

Matt
1995 Eclipse GS
2.0L, S16g Turbo, 8 Injectors, 26psi

1998 Eclipse GSX
2.3L Stroker, AEM EMS Converted to Speed Density, FP3065 Turbo, 35psi , and so on...

  

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BumpinTalonNov-10-05 06:10 PM
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#91330, "RE: Tuning questions"
In response to Reply # 14
Nov-10-05 06:17 PM by BumpinTalon



          

Originally posted by Matt_95tgs
I forgot to add... Mustang dynos have a reputation for not being very accurate with their numbers. The reason is because they don't use a large enough counterweight to accurately measure power. They work great for seeing how much extra power you got of a new mod though. I'd be willing to bet that your friend is closer to the 250-260 range if he really is running 12 psi.


here is the post with his original dyno run at 10psi
http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread.php?s=&threadid=92059

here is the post with his 308whp dyno run at 10.8psi, turns out he didn't make it all the way to 12 (although rage thinks that the engine is cammed). He's also using a big turbo, T04E 50 trim.
http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99630

charts with both. the tuner is rage2. legendboy did the turbo kit in every car in this thread. gpomp has the 308whp Civic. the rule of thumb up here seems to be the mustang dyno reads on the low, looow side... corey thinks he would make 460whp on the dynojet, but sold his car to get something RWD instead. he also plugs big turbos every chance he gets, just about every kit he makes uses a big T04 and it seems to work very well for him. Just about has won me over, too.


1995 Eagle Talon ESi

  

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corsagsboNov-11-05 03:45 AM
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#91333, "RE: Tuning questions"
In response to Reply # 15
Nov-11-05 03:48 AM by corsagsbo

          

as touched on above and in an effort to help educate since the topic is about tuning: Mustang dynos are basically good for determining improvements in direct relation to one another, and not necesarily showing the actual horsepower for that vehicle whether turbo or not. The reason I say this is because the "numbers" can be easily manipulated if the predetrmined profile for that vehicle is not used. (this profile takes into consideration wind resistance, weight, and other specs pertaining to each car individually)
If you look back at the posted dyno, the vehicle make information etc is hidden. Not to say that this was the case... but as an example, if the car was an Integra and they used the profile for a Civic, the numbers will be skewed for the better more than likely.

Just passing that on as a tidbit, but when you do plan to turn up the boost above 15psi... and you will... a megasquirt and dynojet would be the better option.


--------------------------------------
know me as santiago
boosted 420a and ej2o..(my 2liter v8 eaters)

  

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sikeNov-13-05 09:42 AM
Member since Aug 06th 2003
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#91377, "RE: Tuning questions"
In response to Reply # 16


          

SFMU is tunable, with the proper ring/disc/spring + bleed valve. But it is not consistant, uses high fuel pressures to force more fuel and needs to be adjusted frequently. Not nearly as efficient as electronic tuning, but it is tunable.

  

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