Ok guys here is my dilema. Ive been searching here, DSMTuners (and posting there alot) 3si, F-body, and several diesel sites...

Im planning on running propane injection as an experement on my 96 N/T.

Mods are: Unorthodox UDP, 2.5" catback w/magnaflow, CAI, NGK plugs/wires, timing retarded 1 degree, 75 shot NX wet mainline kit, short shifter, soon to be ported/polished intake manifold and 60MM TB also on a hollowed out cat.....

Ok with this in mind, i was planning on running propane for a bit of fun and learning, and also upping the n20 to a 100shot due the now cooler intake temps and reduced knocks i believe this could be a safe alternative. (no GO TURBO jokes please....)

My plan: to use a NX dry kit for the soloinids and lines, single nozzle, and a 10lb propane tank. I figure a pressure regulator on the bottle, set to about 80-90 PSI. The nitrous switch and propane would be wired together when one fires the other would as well. No progressive controller as with my mainline kit its all manual (i prefer the control anyways).

My questions: Ok using this setup what would be the best shot to run for the propane? I have no idea and most info is sketchy at best. And would regulated 80psi be to much or not enough? Also what would be the best, and safest place, to mount a propane bottle in the hatch area/ Proably the spare-tire well i figure, but im unsure yet what to use for safety straps.

Also, does anybody forsee any problems with this setup? Please feel free to say whatever, since after all my research and time spent on this project im still somewhat in the dark. And NO im not going to use a pre-made kit, i want to make my own for the experience of it. Any straightinformation would be VERY welcome in this stage of my quest however....

try here http://www.gas-injection.com/, its not for our application but it will give you a start. I haven't really reseached alot into propane shots for the 420a, but I will say that 80/90 psi is enough to blow you up with certain death. I believe you want to regulate around .010 to 5 psi. Propane is much heavier than n2o, the atomic weight of propane is 44.10 nitrous oxides atomic weight 14.0067. So in theory you would need to run less propane shot to allow the n20 to give its desired affect without keeping it afloat on unburned propane in the cyclinder head, but you also (if I'm understanding your reason to run propane is to keep your a/f ratio high under spray so you don't lean out and detonate) want enough propane to compensate. Me personnally, I think in our application it would be a novelty and cost vs cost much more expensive with refueling lp and maintence of the system than just running a adequate fuel system and using a wet kit, vs the dry unless your a 95.In any case running a 100 shot is still possible on stock internals as long as you take percautions and not lean out in doing so, same with any shot really. Its hard to think serious about the 100 shot as a performance enhancer when its gains alone are not that great to warrant the calculations needed to run propane as an alternative to running a complete fuel system that would give the adequate fuel needed through the shot, which the longest you would ever want to spray is at most 20 seconds, lol the longest 1/4 mile ever. I know I didn't help you much and didn't want to discourage you really but I just don't see the benefits of doing it just to run a 100 shot when that can be done pretty much stock.

http://www.murderpimp.com





2gnt T-shirts&swag
http://www.cafepress.com/mads

I'm not too sure you will fine much help here with propane injection..Not too many people have dabbled with this type of setup, and I don't know of anyone who had with a 2gnt(turbo or nitrous). It's prob best to search the net as much as you can on the subject, and get as much research as you can about it. Maybe that will give you enough insight as to how to run your setup. I've always believed that things like propane and water injection are more of "bandaid" solutions for squeezing out the very last amount of HP as a last ditch effort to replace proper equipment selection and setup, and most of all, proper tunning of the setup. I personally would look more into building the motor, running the right amount of air/fuel, the right amount of ignition timing, and the right amount of fuel octane for the given amount of nitrous(or boost for that matter). A lot of guys like the water injection setups, but I still believe a better intercooler, and the variables mentioned will always be the best way to making reliable, consistant power. If you are still on a stock motor, then detonation will be your biggest fear. Propane and water injection can help, but like I've said, it's more of a band-aid solution to a "proper" tune and setup. Just my thoughts..

13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)
My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

lol same thoughts at the same time.

http://www.murderpimp.com





2gnt T-shirts&swag
http://www.cafepress.com/mads

first off i completely disagree with water injection or propane injection being any sort of band-aid. i personally run water injection and it works extremely well, it does things a "properly setup" system cannot. it has many benefits outside of not only super cooling the boost when i need it, but also a little octane bump. the fact is, you CAN run a higher ignition timing with water injection, and a higher ignition timing makes for more power. so call it a band-aid if you want, but its really not.

on to propane injection...

VERY good idea! propane is a very high octane and quite cheap when buying in bulk. a member on this board runs an IPO propane injecton system and he loves it. he's also a mod over at dsmtuners but i forgot his name. google 'IPO propane injection' its a pretty badass kit.

an internal combustion engine can digest a lot of different kinds of fuels, including alcohol, propane, gasoline, oils, etc etc. different fuels have different characteristics when they burn. gasoline in low octane is very volitile when inside a hot combustion chamber, and as you know a very good way to avoid detonation is to increase the octane. propane injection does exactly that. id say definately look into it, because i think you'll be happy with the final result. (you being able to run higher ignition timing, more boost and ultimately make more power effectively when race gas is not readily available) besides whats the point of having a half tank of 100 octane when in reality all you really need that 100 octane for is when you go WOT...and how often are you wide open? pshh...i maybe leave 60% throttle every other day, its just really not necessary and personally i think 100 octane or race gas is a rip off when you're not at the track all the time.

edit:

here you go

http://www.importpoweronline.com/propanecontent.html

also read this, its a 600bhp 3000gt using propane kits and showing datalogs.

http://www.importpoweronline.com/propanelogs.html

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

96 Black ESi
91 Red TSI AWD (RIP)
02 WRX


"turnin wrenches for nine hours in the pouring rain, just to get the beast up and running again"

Aerospace Certified TIG welder for Precision Castparts in Portland, OR.

JoshSpair.com

13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)
My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

96 Black ESi
91 Red TSI AWD (RIP)
02 WRX


"turnin wrenches for nine hours in the pouring rain, just to get the beast up and running again"

Aerospace Certified TIG welder for Precision Castparts in Portland, OR.

JoshSpair.com

Water injection/propane will help you make more power with a particualar setep, thats true. When there are limitations within a setup, like IC size, NO IC, low octane fuel, ect, then yes, it works well at making more power. I'm trying to put out here, that running a 100 shot of nitrous on a stock motor is in no way pushing the limits of making power. Tuning one of these setups is not for the novice, if you want to do it properly. That's why i asked those questions about YOUR numbers, since you say it works so well for you, which you still have not answered...

So how are you measuring knock? How much do you get without water injection? How much more timing can you run, in degrees, with water injection? How much more boost can you run, with water injection? Like I said, since it works so well for you, I'd like to know your numbers..

You can post links all day long about other's setups..I know the shit works..I've seen 4 bangers put out more power than 600HP without using water injection..I guess its just my opinion that there is the tried and true way of making boosted power. If you are getting knock, then you have either a lean condition, too much timing, too hot of intake charge, or too much boost pressure for a given amount of FUEL OCTANE. If you think about it, FUEL OCTANE is what really makes the power, as greater timing, and more boost pressure can be run without detonation.

So really, I do agree with you that it works, and can work well, but it's tricky business, and not for the novice, to get it tuned properly, which is why i challenge you for your numbers. If you have no way of knowing your knock counts, or any other perameters, then how do you really know if it's working well for you? What kind of power are you putting down on your setup, with and without the water injection???? Most people don't even know what knock sounds like on the 420A...let alone have any "real" way of measuring it..

Since you know so much about this subject, I would have assumed you went through all the dyno tuning time, and have all those numbers ready to put out there..

13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)
My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

good to see you agree. i dont have anything to prove here, i know my system works i dont feel like typing shit out for 10 minutes to prove it.

read the entire site of aquamist.co.uk, i think it may help you...

btw i havent dynoed, i have 1900 miles on my new motor.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

96 Black ESi
91 Red TSI AWD (RIP)
02 WRX


"turnin wrenches for nine hours in the pouring rain, just to get the beast up and running again"

Aerospace Certified TIG welder for Precision Castparts in Portland, OR.

JoshSpair.com

13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)
My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

BTW, does anybody yet see any problems with the physical plumbing of the system? Any cause for concerns with using the dry kit plumbing in such a way? This does seem like the easiest and most cost effective way to inject propane from i can see. Im just getting all my ducks in a row before i do the install to avoid costly failure down the line. I going the sustom made aproach over a pre-made kit for the cost and the general fun of the mod. i believe once i get the pressure and jetting down ill be ready to do the actual install. Oh yea, i still gotta figure out how to safely mount the bottle also...

http://www.murderpimp.com





2gnt T-shirts&swag
http://www.cafepress.com/mads

Actualy leme clear some stuff up for you guys AND PLZ READ you might clear some misconceptions

First off leme give props to hatter for finding a site that sells propane injectors......The ones i ran across looked more like TBI injectors instead of port when i was researching propane as a 8 injector setup with MS (4 gasoline 4 propane using an awesome MSnS feature) in my 3 gas setup (thats the future)

Now why would anyone want to run propane??

High octane, at a cheaper price than comparable octane Gasoline, with a verry low injection temperature (if you sprayed a tank of liquified gas on water you freeze it ) if you run a liquid system or even a gas sys you will see a Considerable decrease in intake temp....even if your intercooler is not heat soaked and working perfectly

Having high octane ON DEMAND is the stuff that gives me a hard-on ...you dont need 100 octane while at light throtle cruising or idle or even lower boost levels...mash the gas and no need for ignition retard...

Now for a NITROUS setup its EVEN nicer since you dont have to go scowring for Propane injectors ....why??

1) well Nitrous Oxide is a GAS also...so if you use the nozzle/solenoid/tubbing/distribution/jets blocks you would use for Nitrous you can use it to inject a preset amt of propane (THINK Fan spray NOZZLES with nitrous in red/propane in blue)

2) Unless you running a Progressive controler you can should wire your system to Retard the timing the 2-3 degrees needed with aftermarket ignition setups that retard by a fixed amt on demand

THE TRICK TO accomplish the above is to know which Jet size you would use to inject the proper amt of propane in relation to your Nitrous nozzle size (for example the recomende use from NOS is: 14n20 with a 16fuel to gain 14 hp in 1 cyl)

AND FOR THOSE WHO THINK WI Sucks... and beleive it detracts from your turbo spooling......ask anyone who knows the dinamics of a turbine engine with Water augumentation..although injecting water WILL take energy from the exhaust gas, water will expand soo much that WI in a turbine engine provides up to 50% more thrust compared to the same engine under same operating conditions.....main adv of WI i see in a turbo car is lower EGT with same amt of pressure on the turbine

vote for your choice of body style for Bluie!! http://www.cardomain.com/id/bluemooneclipse

Like you said above the trick is getting the jetting down. It seems to me that since im not turbo this is still going to be the most effective method of propane injection for me with my nitrous (using another n20 kit for the propane)

Only thing i havent figured out yet is going to be the jetting sizes for the propane, i believe thats my one last stumbling block on this.


And BTW im not concerned with the safety overly much since the store-sold propane injection kits use simple rubber hoses, through the engine bay, for the injection. Im planning on using n20 equipment which is rated for ALOT more pressure and is stronger steel braid.

http://www.murderpimp.com





2gnt T-shirts&swag
http://www.cafepress.com/mads

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

96 Black ESi
91 Red TSI AWD (RIP)
02 WRX


"turnin wrenches for nine hours in the pouring rain, just to get the beast up and running again"

Aerospace Certified TIG welder for Precision Castparts in Portland, OR.

JoshSpair.com

Wow, thanks for all the great info guys. All my questions at Tuners just kinda got shrugged off with a "I Dunno..." and that was about it.

Would anybody forsee a problem using nitrous lines and soloinoids for the propane, assuming the propane only fired when the nitrous did? Also even at 5psi of pressure, what size jet should i use? Or none, just an open nozzel?

And i live in CA also, home of crappy overpriced gas so i see the use of propane as an effective octane booster to extend the life of my stock motor even when running high nitrous shots safely. Until i have the funds to rebuild that is...then eventually i will go turboo but being married i have to pick my mods carefully lol. Besides, it sounds like a fun project and assuming i use a simple dry nitrous kit for the lines and such the actual cost would be small, and propane itself is rather cheap.

good luck it definately sounds like you're being pratical, which is the only real way to modify a daily driver.

what part of cali you from?

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

96 Black ESi
91 Red TSI AWD (RIP)
02 WRX


"turnin wrenches for nine hours in the pouring rain, just to get the beast up and running again"

Aerospace Certified TIG welder for Precision Castparts in Portland, OR.

JoshSpair.com

Theres an interesting picture i found of a propane tank in the back of a 3000GT, however theres no motor pics that show me what he has running under the hood.
EDIT: I just noticed where he placed the fire extinguisher...in a place where if something goes wrong with that tank he cant possibly reach it..

Also, im from SoCal, the inland empire actually (San Bernardino)

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

96 Black ESi
91 Red TSI AWD (RIP)
02 WRX


"turnin wrenches for nine hours in the pouring rain, just to get the beast up and running again"

Aerospace Certified TIG welder for Precision Castparts in Portland, OR.

JoshSpair.com

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

96 Black ESi
91 Red TSI AWD (RIP)
02 WRX


"turnin wrenches for nine hours in the pouring rain, just to get the beast up and running again"

Aerospace Certified TIG welder for Precision Castparts in Portland, OR.

JoshSpair.com

Hey Turbo8u, do you know what your A/F ratio is? I am also going to run 20 psi with 780cc injectors and I have been thinking a lot on a water injection kit. Of course, this is after the car is built

Originally posted by TXTurboGS
Hey Turbo8u, do you know what your A/F ratio is? I am also going to run 20 psi with 780cc injectors and I have been thinking a lot on a water injection kit. Of course, this is after the car is built

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96 Black ESi
91 Red TSI AWD (RIP)
02 WRX


"turnin wrenches for nine hours in the pouring rain, just to get the beast up and running again"

Aerospace Certified TIG welder for Precision Castparts in Portland, OR.

JoshSpair.com