I'm trying to lump all of these experiences and comments into 1 informative thread, so I can move it to the "Things..." folder. These two systems seem to be the most common, probably because they have been built numerous times both have plenty of support. Hopefully this will clear up any misconceptions (and hence eliminate redundant posting) for those trying to build either of these systems.


S-FMU + bigger injectors - stock computer controls the 4 new injectors in the stock location, S-FMU raises pressure through vacuum into boost. Tuned by changing the diameter of the disk in the regulator (which changes the rising rate), static fuel pressure, and bleed valve.
My experience with the S-FMU and big injectors: Cheap and effective fuel system for people running less than ~300 WHP. I put down ~260 WHP with a S-FMU and 415 cc/min injectors, 15 PSI, stock cams, no S-AFC. The whole fuel system cost me maybe $500 above and beyond the HRC stage 1 fuel system. To really fine tune it you have to fork over the extra $200-300 and get an S-AFC or if you want to get fancy, an eManange.


8 injector setup - stock computer controls the 4 stock injectors. 034EFI or equivalent controls the 4 new injectors, installed on a secondary fuel rail that runs in series with the stock rail. Fuel is injected through holes drilled in the manifold, or the PF. Tuned by hooking a laptop with a serial port to the 034EFI or equivalent.
I now have the 8 injector setup, similar to Corbin's design. Stock injectors running at stock fuel pressure is very nice. My gas mileage is slightly better than with the S-FMU and everything seems smoother. If I put the stock cams back, I could definitely pass inspection, unlike with my previous setup. The 034EFI is a much more powerful tool than the S-FMU, but it does not have intake air temperature correction yet, so it may run a tad rich or lean depending on how the weather changes. I believe that the electronics that runs HRC's PF has the same shortfall. I don't like how you have to drill holes in the intake manifold, part of that just doesn't seem right, but hey, it seems to work pretty well. You have to really scuff up those injector bosses and dump loads of JB weld on there in order to secure them in there, or, get them welded. Having them pop out REALLY sucks, but I designed my fuel system so that if anything in the secondary system ever leaks, I can bypass it and go right from the test port on the primary rail to the regulator in less than 5 minutes. (I had to do that twice in the first few days I had the system running)


Anyone else (hopefully people who have tried both) care to add anything?

2016 WRX STi Limited (current)
2001 A4 1.8tqms (donated)
1991 GVR4 #1933 (sold)
old.dsmregistry.com/detail.php?carid=218 (dismantled)

I will tomorrow after the dyno. SFMU compared to HRC Portfueler.

I've run the S-FMU, 440, S-AFC combo and the 8 injector setup. You've pretty much spelled out the differences. I'll add that I'm not a big fan of the S-AFC because of the timing advance associated with using it to lean. I ran very low idle fuel pressure. The injector spray pattern may have been adversely affected. It idled ok, but it could have hurt efficiency some (visible with emissions testing). Because of the simplicity of everything, the fueling at all RPM/boost points could not have been ideal. Idle was OK and full boost was ok, but in between was not the best. The 8 injector system was my next step. It solved my every problem with the S-FMU/440/S-AFC combo. There was a fair amount of fabrication necessary. Initial tuning took 5 minutes. However, I've logged many hours fine tuning it. I always seem to find something that I want to tweek. Driveability is great. Its a huge improvement over the S-FMU/440/S-AFC combo. I've never really had trouble with the lack of a temp sensor. The primaries respond to changes in temp and the secondaries do not. So, your total fueling is off by a lower percentage. However, it would be a benefit to have temp response. Future EIC's will have temp response. The S-FMU deal is a good first step. EIC's go one beyond that. The next step is a stand-alone. Each step certainly has superior capabilities over the previous. We are just starting to see stand-alones that are cheap and versatile. I think we are entering a golden age for fuel systems.

Corbin

'95 ESI-T
Now with more power and fewer leaks



Gimme fuel...Gimme fire...Gimme that which I desire

wouldn't it be helpful to also include info on the megasquirt in the FAQ? i think the MS is going to quickly become a popular alternative to these two setups

-marc

Well, first of all, 90% of the people on this board would not know how to start programming a MS, enough have problems with the 034EFI and the S-FMU which are both a cakewalk compaired to it. Second, I think only two people on this board actually have a working MS system. Once it becomes more mainstream and there are more people that have used it and are able to add more feedback, someone will include it in a comparison like this.

2016 WRX STi Limited (current)
2001 A4 1.8tqms (donated)
1991 GVR4 #1933 (sold)
old.dsmregistry.com/detail.php?carid=218 (dismantled)

SFMU w/ 440cc Injectors VRS HRC Portfueler System (8 Injector Setup)

Well.. I never ran an AFC with my SFMU. I hated how the idle was with 440cc injectors and simply an SFMU. You couldn't have anywhere near stock driveability, not to mention your fuel curves im sure are exteremly screwed up because of changing the flow patterns of the injectors. The 440s alone are good with an SFMU, but extremely hard to tune. You try and adjust the bottom end, and it effects the top. Try and tune the top and it effects the bottom. To me, it was not a winning solution. You can certainly do it and it works, but now after using the Portfueler system.. Wow, no comparison.

Now. HRC's Portfueler system. Many people were saying that the transisition from no boost to boost is rather rough with an 8 injector setup. I have to completely disagree. The car feels great the entire power band. With HRC's port fueler system or any 8 injectors setup you run stock injectors and very large injectors providing you with plenty of fuel for anything you want to do. Driving around town with stock injectors and 50psi of fuel is awsome compared to 440cc injectors. No more shooting gas out your tailpipe... The car feels a hell of a lot more in tune with itself compared to running just 440cc injectors. I really like this kit from HRC simply because of 2 things. First, you don't have to do the custom work yourself and hope you have it right or worry about JB welds coming loose. Second, they supply you with a base map that actually works pretty good. Tonight on the dyno, I didn't adjust the fuel map. However it does need adjusting. All cars are different and I don't think HRC took into account all my other mods when deciding on this map, however, how could they know... The programing of the AIC controller from HRC looks like its going to be a task, however the point is.. you can run the car at 27lbs of boost with the map they provide. All around the HRC Portfueler is definetly worth the money and worth the time to use. The kit is very easy to install to where even a novice with a simply 10mm and 13mm socket can do install this without a problem.

My .02 on the MegaSquirt. I don't think its going to be widely used. I see it being an extreme bitch to tune and more people will end up blowing themselves up no matter how much help they get from a message board.

__________________________________________
~Chris

forums.kaptainmyke.com/index.php?&act=garage&CODE=12&CID=8
- AGP CAI
- AGP EVM
- MOPAR Stage 1 ECU
- 500cc Injectors

And he wonders why he couldn't make her happy...and someone obviously hasnt moved on. lol

I dont think its that simple.

__________________________________________
~Chris

forums.kaptainmyke.com/index.php?&act=garage&CODE=12&CID=8
- AGP CAI
- AGP EVM
- MOPAR Stage 1 ECU
- 500cc Injectors

And he wonders why he couldn't make her happy...and someone obviously hasnt moved on. lol

Lets keep this focused on the original subject. I tell you what...I might switch to a MS next spring. Then, I'll start a thread comparing everything. Experience is much better than conjecture.

Corbin

'95 ESI-T
Now with more power and fewer leaks



Gimme fuel...Gimme fire...Gimme that which I desire

yes i agree, let me know how it turns out for you. i like comparisons.
if you decide it's better for you, i'm going for it as well.

I WILL be using a megasquirt within a month or so (depends on how long my engine takes to pull out, machine, and assemble). My ONLY concern with a megasquirt is hardware failure. I don't know if you guys have read up on the MS, or played with the tuning software yet (MegaTune), but its not very complicated with a couple of days of reading. I'd say when compared to SFMU or 8-inj, it simply blows them out of the water. Of course I haven't used it yet, so my statement is based on the actual technology. i'll let you know within a month or so if the megasquirt is the real deal or not. I'd say it belongs in this comparison.

For this thread, my opinion is that I do not like the SFMU. The whole concept is rather flakey. The stock ECU has no business fueling our boosted cars. It doesn't have ANY points on it's fuel map for positive air pressure. Hell, we don't even let it see boost. Not cool IMO. 8-inj seems like a much better idea. And megasquirt seems much better than that .


1996 Eclipse RS / 5-Speed / Aerogear Body / Coated in Magnetic Red Metallic rev.2 / T3 Turbo Intercooled @ 8 psi / http://www.team2nr.com
Mark Galyan - Indianapolis, Indiana

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Megasquirt powered 420A
Custom turbo system

http://www.ms-custom.com

I liked the extreme simplicity of the SFMU setup. It's just very, very hard to mess something up. It works, and works quite well, and does what it's supposed to do. It's largest downfall is fine tuning. You just can't do it with a rising rate FPR. If all you want to do is blast the car down the 1/4 at a set amount of boost, and don't care about street driveability or idle, then that may make for a fuel setup that works just fine. But most of us don't have dedicated drag cars that run a set amount of boost.

The 034 8 injector setup works very, very well, and I really can't see how you would need any other means of fuel control for boost. You run stock pressures, and stock primaries, so normal driving is perfect, and the stock ECU takes care of business like usual. Excellent. Additional fuel for boost is precisely controlled and tuned with a matrix by laptop, and can tune in real time. Excellent again. I think this setup is very good, but unfortunately, it has it downfalls also- You have to build the manifold for the extra injectors, which isn't all that hard really, but it's something to think about. The HRC injector plate would take care of this issue though. Someone also mentioned an injector/driver failure. This would be very bad..and may not go noticed for a few seconds, or maybe even longer for the untrained driver/tuner.
I think this setup works just fine up to a certain level of boost, more should I say up to when we start maxing out our pump gas octane with stock ignition timing advance. This goes for either setup really.

The megasquirt- This is the best damn thing to come about for what we are trying to do here with a NT motor and ECU. Full control of fuel with 4 injectors, temperature compensation, and easy installation, and simple tuning if you UNDERSTAND how the system and software work. It's cheap to either buy or build, and simple to install. I really can't see any major drawback with this setup as of yet.
The one thing about the MS that really gets my vote for the best damn setup, is the ability for it to control our ignition timing. Hopefully Lee will get the stock crank sensor and coilpack to work perfectly together, and firing the cylinders as it's told to. This really is the shit! It would be all we need for a boosted 420A if you think about it. Total control of fuel and ignition is what we need, thats it. The only other option to do this now, would be a full standalone, which is much, much more complicated to get installed and running, over the MS. Lee has shown us that the stock ECU can still be retained, controlling all other functions such as IAC, speedo, and everything else really except fuel and ignition. Thats just badd ass. Think about it. At 15 psi, i've found out by lots of tuning time, that I am now needing control of ignition timing. We have to, if we want to start pushing the limits of 93 pump fuel and higher boost. There is just no way around that, besides higher octane race fuel. I'm def buying a MS once the ignition is up and perfectly running..that's pretty much what i'm waiting for, as the 034 setup is working just fine for my current boost level.

13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)
My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

MS is the way to go IF and WHEN you fulfil all of the following

A) buy a wideband (here its needed...i dont consider it optional), buy a reliable laptop.. needed for logging too

B) monitor Knock/EGT/AF closely, and do not ignore variations..., stop vehicle, fix imediately, retard timing accordingly also

C) start tunning allways with a rich map (but not tooo too rich. u will get "rich ping")..leaning it out carefully, geting PROPER sized injectors to keep Fuel Pressure in at a reasonable rate...buy HQ FPR/FP gauge


Those first 3 apply to any fuel system upgrade really

D) Read the MS boards DALY or at least weakly till you understand whats going on, what to do and how to do it...actualy this should be the first thing you do before you consider megasquirt

Might have missed a lot of obvious points....slick will correct me

vote for your choice of body style for Bluie!! http://www.cardomain.com/id/bluemooneclipse

BTW news on UMS from the MS site

Sequential injection will not be possible with MS II, but it will be
possible with UMS. In fact we expect that most any crank/ cam position
sensors and toothed wheels will work with UMS.

MS II can handle WBO2 in the sense that if you provide the sensor
input, you can enter an Air/ Fuel table vs rpm and map and it will
maintain these values (aint that nice!!). Now in order to control the WBO2 sensor and
make it provide accurate, calibrated outputs, you need a WBO2
controller. I believe you can get one now from Peter Gargano. When UMS
comes out there will be a separate controller which you can get as an
option, plus UMS will have 2 channels of WBO2.

vote for your choice of body style for Bluie!! http://www.cardomain.com/id/bluemooneclipse

Ok, I don't have my turbo on yet. I've put alot of time into researching it and decided to use a 034 8-injector system. I didn't like the idea of having tunability issues that were noted about the SFMU style systems.

Theres one benifit of using an 8-injector system as opposed to a standalone(like MS, TEC, AEM, etc) that noone seems to talk about much - no CEL. I plan to keep my car on the legal side. Although I haven't been keeping up with that plan for the past few years I do have a brand spankin new emissions sticker on the car(with the 034 installed). In my area a CEL will fail regardless of what year your car is, and for 96+ cars its manditory to plug into the ODBII system and run some tests. Just looking at the list of P codes in my Chiltons - I cant imagine how many CELs will pop up once you start disconnect things and shunting them to the MS(maybe somone can shed some light on that). To an extreme I suppose you could just even take your factory ECU out and kiss On Board Diagnostics goodbye alltogether. Thats fine and dandy for trailer queens. It depends on your local emission laws whether its a problem for a street car though.


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
15.7 @ 87.9mph
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

im still relatively ignant about the 034EFI and certainly with the MS since ive never used it, but the one issue that i personaly have with the 034EFI is the lack of any intake temp. fuel compensation. I think i am the only one to have this issue and it may not even be related to the 034 at all, but its there none the less. With all other factors being the same and no changes to anything on my car, i will run pig rich in hotter ambient temps (hotter intake charge), but then lean out to the point of mini-detonation (if thats possible, ive had a few instances of 'mysterious' knocking in colder temps that goes away in warmer temps and only happens in boost when is colder out...) in colder temps.
thats my only complaint about this unit. if it had temp compensation it would be the perfect fuel system.

USED TO HAVE...Everything you wish you had, and then some...

You are somebody special Tim, you matter! - from the admins (but nobody likes you, because your username is just like that other guy's, and you whine a lot)

Is it possible to store 2 different fuel charts?

Like on a floppy, and when temperature changes just pop it in?

Member # 751


FOUNDER of the Central Cali chapter of 2GNT!
(I got kicked out after I refused to go Cow tiping) - Hehehe you know who this is for

Actualy jim the way it works with the MS you keep everything connected EXEPT the Injectors...now if you find resitors with enough watts and correct ohms to simulate a fuel injector you could get away without a CEL...rest is kept in place....


BTW i have had a CEL since day 1 on my car....i took out the bulb since i hated it...just plug in matco scanner every month, or whenever something seems out of ordinary to see if there is something new...once i yank the 604 i will definitively have massive amts of CEL

vote for your choice of body style for Bluie!! http://www.cardomain.com/id/bluemooneclipse

USED TO HAVE...Everything you wish you had, and then some...

You are somebody special Tim, you matter! - from the admins (but nobody likes you, because your username is just like that other guy's, and you whine a lot)