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Subject: "8-injector tuning help/advice?" Previous topic | Next topic
pn0ymahalMay-18-03 05:45 PM
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#49076, "8-injector tuning help/advice?"




          

ok so i got it all up and running . at 1st i had some hesitation with it set to 25 so i move it up to 27 for map rate cut, and it seems like it changes my fuel trims? is it true each parameter 'changed' will change the fuel trims? or atleast the ltft? when i was tuning with my cousin it seems like it also changes my ltft in boost if we change the cut fuel below etc??
right now i got my fuel pressure at idle set at 37psi to get good fuel trims, stft is -/+2% and ltft is -1.6%to-2.3%. my atmospheric pressure is 102.7KPa. oh yah i got stock 235cc in primary rail, and 420cc accel in the secondary rail. i'll go try again tommorow.
any advice guys?
Michael 99gs 8-Injector Setup
HRC Stage 2 @12psi emoji
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild
2GNT Member #32

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Replies to this topic
RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?, pn0ymahal, May-19-03 07:21 PM, #1
RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?, TeamMetalJim, May-19-03 07:53 PM, #2
      RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?, pn0ymahal, May-20-03 04:29 AM, #3
           RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?, ModeratorCorbin, May-20-03 07:30 AM, #4
                RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?, pn0ymahal, May-20-03 09:26 AM, #5
                     RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?, pn0ymahal, May-22-03 11:28 AM, #6
                          RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?, 97eclipseRS, May-22-03 11:42 AM, #7
                               RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?, pn0ymahal, May-22-03 12:23 PM, #8
                                    RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?, TeamMetalJim, May-22-03 12:25 PM, #9
                                         RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?, pn0ymahal, May-22-03 09:18 PM, #10
                                              RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?, jcurcillo, May-23-03 04:56 AM, #11
                                                   RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?, pn0ymahal, May-23-03 07:09 AM, #12
                                                        RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?, ModeratorCorbin, May-23-03 07:23 AM, #13
                                                             RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?, pn0ymahal, May-23-03 09:28 AM, #14
                                                                  RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?, pn0ymahal, May-23-03 04:02 PM, #15
                                                                       RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?, ModeratorCorbin, May-23-03 04:56 PM, #16
                                                                            RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?, pn0ymahal, May-23-03 08:25 PM, #17
                                                                                 RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?, ModeratorCorbin, May-27-03 08:26 AM, #18
                                                                                      looks good for now, pn0ymahal, May-29-03 04:49 PM, #19
                                                                                           RE: looks good for now, Matt_95tgs, May-31-03 07:29 PM, #20
                                                                                                RE: looks good for now, pn0ymahal, May-31-03 07:41 PM, #21
                                                                                                     RE: looks good for now, Matt_95tgs, May-31-03 08:02 PM, #22

pn0ymahalMay-19-03 07:21 PM
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#49166, "RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?"
In response to Reply # 0




          

ok so i did a little bit more tuning. from my pov it looks like when the car gets warmed up fuel trims change ( it gets richer ) like from -2% to -6% about. its odd, i have my 'map rate cut' at 25, but when i changed my 'injector scaler' or my 'cut fuel below' a little higher i would get this hesitation at about 0psi. the part i hate is mt fuel trims mostly ltft keeps adjusting at idle.
any input would be nice.

Michael 99gs 8-Injector Setup
HRC Stage 2 @12psi emoji
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild
2GNT Member #32

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

  

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TeamMetalJimMay-19-03 07:53 PM
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#49168, "RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?"
In response to Reply # 1




          

When your car is off, what is the ambient pressure? 100? 120? What is your Cut Fuel below number set to? Is it above the ambient pressure?

It definately is wierd that changing anything would effect ltft at idle. You should not be pumping anything through the injectors till you hit boost...but it sounds like you are.


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

  

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pn0ymahalMay-20-03 04:29 AM
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#49181, "RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?"
In response to Reply # 2




          

When your car is off, what is the ambient pressure? 100? 120?
its at 102.7kpa

What is your Cut Fuel below number set to? Is it above the ambient pressure?
yes, i set it about 116.7kpa with this and 27 map cut rate i get no hesitation, but if i increase the cut fuel below number say to 119.7 or 122.7 it hesitates at 0psi.. (just a side not)

It definately is wierd that changing anything would effect ltft at idle. You should not be pumping anything through the injectors till you hit boost...but it sounds like you are.

its odd to me. check it out, i notice my fuel trims where out -10%long etc with my 47psi idle fp, so i brought it down to 37-38psi of idle fp to get my ltft about -3%, so after i let it idle for a few mins. i shut it off, and 10mins later turn the car on, and my fuel trims of course are super lean +24, well it was on its way. i have found best idle fuel pressure for me is 47psi, but i hate this ltft changing at idle after a 30mins give or take of tuning.
i took my - out of the battery last night, before that i set my fpr at 47psi, so today when i turn it on it will be exact 'i hope' at 47psi and i will just let it idle to learn the new fuel trims ( hoping its low )
any advice?

Michael 99gs 8-Injector Setup
HRC Stage 2 @12psi emoji
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild
2GNT Member #32

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

  

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ModeratorCorbinMay-20-03 07:30 AM
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#49192, "RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?"
In response to Reply # 3


          

Don't pay attention to fuel trims right after you start up the car. Give the car time to warm up and make sure the A/F is cycling.

There is no reason to unplug the negative terminal on the battery. The ECU will learn the new fuel settings just fine without you clearing its memory.

Corbin

'95 ESI-T
HRC+FMIC+ETC...



Gimme fuel...Gimme fire...Gimme that which I desire

  

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pn0ymahalMay-20-03 09:26 AM
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#49196, "RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?"
In response to Reply # 4




          

ok ill go try it again. i will let it warm up, and from there i will adjust the idle fp to get my ltft near 0.
ill keep you guys updated
Michael 99gs 8-Injector Setup
HRC Stage 2 @12psi emoji
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild
2GNT Member #32

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

  

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pn0ymahalMay-22-03 11:28 AM
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#49344, "RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?"
In response to Reply # 5
May-22-03 11:29 AM by pn0ymahal



          

well i got some tuning done with my cousin (Karl). we got the car pretty much tuned up to 3psi only, we got like +/-4%stft and ltft is like +/-15% about. its to hot right now so we shall continue tuning tonight for 5-6psi and up to 9psi tonight... hehe... one little problem the lower we go on the Injector Scaler from 5.3 to 4.8 about i 'sometimes' get hesitation at 0psi, and sometimes no? i have my map cut rate at 27.
any info would be nice?

Michael 99gs 8-Injector Setup
HRC Stage 2 @12psi emoji
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild
2GNT Member #32

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

  

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97eclipseRSMay-22-03 11:42 AM
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#49346, "RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?"
In response to Reply # 6




          

just some input, although i'm not running the 8 inj setup, i've noticed that until the car warms up and the o2 sensor also warms up, the stft sits at +24 and the ltft gradually rises to that point also. as the car warms up, these both come down to "normal" running trims. so don't pay any attention to them until the car is fully warm.

- Dan

HRC Stage 2|30lb injectors|S-FMU|Walbro255HP|AFX UDP|B&M Short Shifter w/ Symborski Shift Kit|Rear Strut Bar|Power Slot Rotors|more...

  

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pn0ymahalMay-22-03 12:23 PM
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#49351, "RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?"
In response to Reply # 7




          

regarding ^^^ im all over that.. thats no issue.
thanks
Michael 99gs 8-Injector Setup
HRC Stage 2 @12psi emoji
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild
2GNT Member #32

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

  

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TeamMetalJimMay-22-03 12:25 PM
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#49352, "RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?"
In response to Reply # 8




          

Sounds like you're getting it now. Good. Let us know how it turns out.


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

  

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pn0ymahalMay-22-03 09:18 PM
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#49376, "RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?"
In response to Reply # 9




          

ok is it me, or does the fuel trims always change at a certain 'point' like say at 3psi it would be -15% then at 3psi later it would be -9% both in close loop etc?? this is what is happening while we are tuning. also we got up to 6psi of close loop tuning with both fuel trims changing all the time, but we got them pretty good. stft around -3% and ltft around -4%to-13% about (changes).. i tried to do 9psi in close loop but its super hard. its like only for a split second if that and it goes into open loop and both fuel trims go to ~0% and my a/f locks. =(.. how do you guys do max boost in close loop to get a good reading of fuel trims? i dont step on the gas so much, so i dont get it. but anyways, i went into open loop i step on the gas since i was tired and wanted to see what it feels/runs like at 9psi, and i got some hesitation at 0psi and some within boost, but i increase the map cut rate from 27-29 ok for now. my scaler is 4.6018 or something close. my a/f gauge is pretty low like .90-.92. so tommorow i will do a few runs and see what goes on.
any advice guys?
Michael 99gs 8-Injector Setup
HRC Stage 2 @12psi emoji
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild
2GNT Member #32

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

  

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jcurcilloMay-23-03 04:56 AM
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#49382, "RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?"
In response to Reply # 10


          

I got that hesitation at 0psi too. You need to turn the map cut rate up. This will up the responce of the map sensor. Mine is set around 100. I run 14psi on a T3 turbo. You may not need to set it so high. It all depends on the flow caracteristics of your turbo. Also. My turbo flows more air into the engine at no boost. More air than stock that is. So my atmosphere is like 101kpa. I set my fuel cut below to 95kpa. This was still not low enough. I am now using 85kpa. You have a 16G. Given it is larger, but 116kpa sound very late for the injectors to kick. I would try like 105kpa. You will know when you went too low. The car will get pig rich. Better rich than lean.

  

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pn0ymahalMay-23-03 07:09 AM
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#49390, "RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?"
In response to Reply # 11




          

hey, what size injectors are you using? and what is your idle fuel pressure set to? well my atmosphere with the car off is 102.7kpa so we are sorta close. i have stock 235cc in my primary idle fp set at 47psi, and 420cc accel for seconadies. just wondering how high can the map rate cut go? from my playing with the map rate cut, it seems if i go to low it will hesitate at 0psi, same goes if i go to high. 27 was ok, went to 28 sorta did not want to move, 29 was good, went to 30 sorta did not want to move??
also from the board i hear it best to add fuel close to atmospheric pressure, but from the 034 guy extra fuel is not needed till a few psi of boost? i assume it depends how you set your idle fp etc?
ill try playing with it all later again when i got time.
thanks
Michael 99gs 8-Injector Setup
HRC Stage 2 @12psi emoji
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild
2GNT Member #32

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

  

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ModeratorCorbinMay-23-03 07:23 AM
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#49393, "RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?"
In response to Reply # 12
May-23-03 07:25 AM by Corbin

          

Once you get the fuel trims pretty low at 6 psi in closed loop, try a WOT run at 6 psi (assuming you have a boost controller that can be set to 6 psi). If your EGT's are good on that WOT run, then increase the boost a little. Set boost to 7 psi and go WOT. If your EGT's are good on that run, increase boost a little more. Set boost to 8 psi and go WOT. You'll want to go WOT for several seconds to get a good idea of how the engine is running. If your EGT ever looks too high, then increase that "injector scaler" a little bit. I usually change my injector scaler by 5-10%. If your scaler is 4.89 and you want a 10% increase, then multiply 4.89 by 1.1. That gives you a new scaler of 5.38. Plug that into the EIC program and see what you get. I often carry a calculator in the car when I tune (does that make me a nerd?).

Once you get all the basic tuning down, you can really get adventurous. Then you can start changing the numbers in the matrix. You can set it to give you more fuel at higher RPM's or higher boost. But, don't touch those numbers until you get the car running pretty well.

Corbin

'95 ESI-T
HRC+FMIC+ETC...



Gimme fuel...Gimme fire...Gimme that which I desire

  

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pn0ymahalMay-23-03 09:28 AM
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#49397, "RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?"
In response to Reply # 13




          

you a nerd? haha you the man.. hehe.. ill take her for a few runs when im free today..
Michael 99gs 8-Injector Setup
HRC Stage 2 @12psi emoji
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild
2GNT Member #32

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

  

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pn0ymahalMay-23-03 04:02 PM
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#49402, "RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?"
In response to Reply # 14




          

just wondering, does the map cut rate only fix at the 0psi mark? or evern within boost? sometimes i get it at 5psi sometimes no? i tried to go from 29 for my map rate cut, to as high as 52 and within those numbers sometimes it feels great, sometimes it feels bad? how much of a increase should i do at one time? from like 29 should i go up to 31 then 33 etc? or do every single number?.. if you put the number to high will it hesitate more or the same?
thanks
Michael 99gs 8-Injector Setup
HRC Stage 2 @12psi emoji
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild
2GNT Member #32

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

  

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ModeratorCorbinMay-23-03 04:56 PM
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#49403, "RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?"
In response to Reply # 15


          

"MAP cut rate" just changes how often the EIC reads the boost sensor output. If you have the MAP cut rate set low and the boost changes quickly, you will get incorrect fueling. I don't see any downside to setting it really high (just uses more processor power). Set the "fuel cut below" a little higher (like 1 kPa) and see if that helps the hesitation.

Corbin

'95 ESI-T
HRC+FMIC+ETC...



Gimme fuel...Gimme fire...Gimme that which I desire

  

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pn0ymahalMay-23-03 08:25 PM
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#49407, "RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?"
In response to Reply # 16




          

"Set the "fuel cut below" a little higher (like 1 kPa) and see if that helps the hesitation. "

im a little confuse, just 1 kPa higher then it is set to now? or 1 kPa higher then my atmospheric pressure?
i guess ill set my map cut rate at like 30-50 soon..
thanks for the info.
*note* i lowered my scaler some more recently and set my cut fuel below at 1psi of boost now instead of 2psi. car seems to run from .91v (when i 1st step on it) and goes up to .96-.97 at max boost. i up the scaler .1 about and i will check this setting out tommorow to see if im a bit richer/safer.
cool

Michael 99gs 8-Injector Setup
HRC Stage 2 @12psi emoji
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild
2GNT Member #32

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

  

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ModeratorCorbinMay-27-03 08:26 AM
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#49568, "RE: 8-injector tuning help/advice?"
In response to Reply # 17


          

>im a little confuse, just 1 kPa higher then it is set to now?
>or 1 kPa higher then my atmospheric pressure?

I just meant if you are at 108 kPa, try 109 kPa. Make small changes. If you raise it too far, you will probably end up creating a lean spot in the fuel curve.

>i guess ill set my map cut rate at like 30-50 soon..

I think this is a good idea

>*note* i lowered my scaler some more recently and set my cut
>fuel below at 1psi of boost now instead of 2psi. car seems to

I think 1 psi is a good level. 2 psi seems a little high.

>run from .91v (when i 1st step on it) and goes up to .96-.97
>at max boost. i up the scaler .1 about and i will check this
>setting out tommorow to see if im a bit richer/safer.

Sounds like you are doing pretty good. How are your EGT's?


>2GNT Member #32

How did you find out what # you are?

Corbin

'95 ESI-T
HRC+FMIC+ETC...



Gimme fuel...Gimme fire...Gimme that which I desire

  

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pn0ymahalMay-29-03 04:49 PM
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#49711, "looks good for now"
In response to Reply # 18
May-29-03 04:53 PM by pn0ymahal



          

>im a little confuse, just 1 kPa higher then it is set to now?
>or 1 kPa higher then my atmospheric pressure?

I just meant if you are at 108 kPa, try 109 kPa. Make small changes. If you raise it too far, you will probably end up creating a lean spot in the fuel curve.

>i guess ill set my map cut rate at like 30-50 soon..

I think this is a good idea

new*** right now its at 49 it was at 29 but i had to move it up to 49 on a very hot day in ca because my car would not move for shit.

>*note* i lowered my scaler some more recently and set my cut
>fuel below at 1psi of boost now instead of 2psi. car seems to

I think 1 psi is a good level. 2 psi seems a little high.

new*** 1psi is cool for now

>run from .91v (when i 1st step on it) and goes up to .96-.97
>at max boost. i up the scaler .1 about and i will check this
>setting out tommorow to see if im a bit richer/safer.

Sounds like you are doing pretty good. How are your EGT's?
new** my egt with my injector scaler at 4.813=4.9 gives me around 1560 max at 9psi of boost, but my fuel trims are not like you wish but this gives me good results for now.. my a/f is .92-.97v raises with rpm and boost. i guess i can lean each rpm/boost level down a little if i want. maybe in a few weeks ill tune for 12psi again. hehe
'
>2GNT Member #32

How did you find out what # you are?
new** click on your name at the top, and Corbin your #6. hehe

Michael 99gs 8-Injector Setup
HRC Stage 2 @12psi emoji
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild
2GNT Member #32

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

  

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Matt_95tgsMay-31-03 07:29 PM
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#49763, "RE: looks good for now"
In response to Reply # 19


          

If your o2 voltage keeps raising with RPM and Boost, then your scaler is too high. I have done tons and tons of tuning with my 8 injector setup both on the road and on the dyno, and I'll add a few things that I have seen with my setup. First off, I have my map cut rate set at its absolute highest setting (like 255 or close to that) and have no restrictors in the dedicated vacuum line running to the 034EIC. The way I see it, you want the 034EIC running as close to real-time as possible to adapt to rapid changes in boost immediately. I ran the car this way for about 2 weeks with good results before I pulled the motor a few weeks ago (replacing tranny input shaft seal, adding cams, and more goodies emoji ).

I also ran into the hesitation at 0 psi, but it was strange what happened to me. In my case, as soon as the car saw 0 vac, it went totally lean. Every time my a/f gauge would read red and my car would bog and backfire out the intake (i could hear the BOV from it) so I know it was lean. This didn't happen immediately after setting up the 034EIC. In fact, this happened about a week after I tuned on the dyno and had all of my numbers reading almost perfectly. The only thing that I can guess that caused this is that during partial throttle boosting, all of the added fuel tricks the stock ecu into creating a leaned out fuel map at 0 vac. Since the computer thinks the car is at 0 vac when you are boosting, it compensates for the excess fuel delivered during partial throttle boost, thus causing a lean spot when your car is actually at 0 vac and the 034EIC isnt adding fuel. I compensated for this by having it start squirting fuel at 92 KPA, and altering the matrix at that pressure so that it squirted less fuel than it does during boost (I began the line with 0.88 and finished at 7000 rpms at 0.96). By doing this, it completely eliminated the hesitation and made my transition into boost flawless. I would be willing to bet that those of you who are having a hesitation at 0 vac are having this same problem. When it hesitates, watch your a/f gauge closely and I'll bet the voltage stays lean (even in closed loop mode).

I would think that another way to correct this problem would be to lean out on the 034EIC. My guess is that during partial throttle boosting, I am running so rich that my primary injectors are barely needed to provide the proper amount of fuel. Because of that, the stock computer learns to squirt less fuel when the car reaches 0 vac. Now, if I were to lean out the 034EIC so that the stock injectors were still dispensing fuel at the same rate as they would at 0 vac, then you would have no lean spot in the transition from vac to boost. I will try to do this better once I have my car back and running soon, but trying to get accurate fuel trim readings at 15 psi of partial throttle boost is nearly impossible. And, even if I do get the numbers dead on in the 034EIC, I wouldnt know it for a long time since it takes the computer awhile to compensate for those changes. I definately think that squirting fuel in vacuum is an easier and safe fix, but probably not best for performance. Although, honestly I dont care about performance at 0 vac much anymore emoji .

Matt
1995 Eclipse GS
2.0L, S16g Turbo, 8 Injectors, 26psi

1998 Eclipse GSX
2.3L Stroker, AEM EMS Converted to Speed Density, FP3065 Turbo, 35psi , and so on...

  

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pn0ymahalMay-31-03 07:41 PM
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#49766, "RE: looks good for now"
In response to Reply # 20




          

Matt, what is your atmospheric pressure at your location? i assume 92KPA is 0psi? or a little before?
also i will move my map rate cut up like close to 250 about since Corbin said, that it just uses more power to do this right?
i will play with it some.
thanks for the info
Michael 99gs 8-Injector Setup
HRC Stage 2 @12psi emoji
Stage 3 process begins 2 months about till im built. hehe
2GNT Member #32

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

  

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Matt_95tgsMay-31-03 08:02 PM
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#49767, "RE: looks good for now"
In response to Reply # 21


          

Atmospheric pressure is 100.3 here.

Matt
1995 Eclipse GS
2.0L, S16g Turbo, 8 Injectors, 26psi

1998 Eclipse GSX
2.3L Stroker, AEM EMS Converted to Speed Density, FP3065 Turbo, 35psi , and so on...

  

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