Hey guys..

Im pretty new on this forum and a couple of guys i know told me to go check out this site. First thing i want to say is that i like this site, and i feel right at home with fellow 2gnt eclipses.

Well, im a newbee and all and i havent read all of the forums posted up in this site, but i have a dillema.

Heres my little story, it starts out good, ends up bad. I have a 99 GS Eclipse 10th anniversary edition (OZ rims, turbo spoiler, moonroof, leater interior, full pkg). For more than 80k miles, the car has ran flawlessly. Sometimes it amazes me how far this car can take me, i've disappointed alot of people about my car, them saying eclipses will not last a year. Well, proved them wrong. I've also raced this car stock, and able to beat "most" of the other racers off the road, even though my car looks like a GS-T/GSX model. Well, this march, ive made the move and go all turbo......heres the sad story comes in.....

Before i went turbo, ive talked to alot of people, bout forced inductions, pros and cons. So being a patient fellah, i did my studies, homeworks about it all, and bought each parts seperately. I could of gone and bought a kit, but i dont have over 2k to spend at one time, i got bills to pay. It paid off, im happy and a friend, friends of his runs a shop. He said, hes good with turbos, and he can do it, install in 1 week. I handed him my baby, with the parts...and 3 weeks later, it was done. First trouble was that he couldnt make my exhaust manifold, so i said ok, and he got me a pre-made star exhaust manif...a week later, my Vortech FMU 10:1 was obsolete..i said "why"? he said my car didnt have a fuel return line. Ok? so what fuel system i need to run, he gave me the option to go with bigger fuel injectors, bigger fuel pump and run Apex'i AFC......i gave him the green light (even though the greens in my pocket was goin empty).

At first drive, i was scared. I got the butterflys. My exhaust was much quieter, and the response on the throttle seemed quicker. Took it for a drive, but i noticed something, the HKS SSQV didnt sound right, kept "spurtin", where whas the "WHOOOSSSSHHH" sound??? Ok, and also, when i shift from 2nd gear to 3rd, it would run lean..and the car would choke. When i came back to the shop and told him whats wrong, he said its all because of my BOV..its not releasin the air and its goin back to the turbine. So he advised me to get another BOV..i took the advice, and went home. (also wondered why my car would run rich on idle)

Took it home, but while driving home, my car didnt feel right. I know turbos are fast, and why isnt that im not feeling the G-force while boostin, and why am i boostin 4psi when my wastegate is 6psi. Next day, i went out, and while i was driving, i was smelling fuel. I thought it was ok..then i noticed a wisp of smoke....i stopped on the side, and popped my hood......oil..all over my throttle body, i checked the valve cover if there was a leak..none..on the head..none...i reved the car from the throttle body, and out of nowhere, oil started spurtin out of the PCV...WTF??!!??

Next day, took it to my friend, he said it could be nothing, but we checked compression, no compression in Cylinder #4. I gave my car to another mechanic "friend" i thought it could be a blown head gasket, bought Head Gasket set, new timimg belt, and flanges for the turbo parts......2 months later......

Same $hit was happening. Still smokin from the PCV, oil spurtin from the PCV..he didnt check the pistons, and advised me to have the dealer check it....WTF????

Gasket Set= $125
Timing Belt= $50
Labor= $200 (friend discount)

Went to the dealer, after the dealer has done some diagnostics, they said the piston ring broke....a day later, they changed the reason, as that the piston itself broke, could be due to detonation. I was pissed, its costing me money, i said go ahead to replace the piston, and change the rings..

Piston= $90
Gasket Set= $150
Piston Ring Set= $115
New Thermostat= $2
New Oil Pan Gasket= $25
Labor= $930

4 Days later i got my car back, the mechanic asked me, who did my turbo setup, i told him a friends friend of mine. He said, i detonated and my car is not suitable with turbo, he gave me recomendations to run a lower compression, or take the turbo out. Believe me, i got the lecture from this guy, which pissed me off, but i listened.

My car has been running well for 1 1/2 weeks, i didnt boost alot, but with work, and this being my only car, i had no choice but to drive 25 miles to work everyday..over the weekend i finally bought another BOV..Greddy Type-S ($200) and i bought a flange, went to a local muffler shop and told the welder what to do ($34 to weld parts) and installed the BOV myself....to my suprise, i finally heard the infamous WHOOOOOOSSSSSHH..and guess what..i can boost 6psi???..now why is that..hmmmmm.....man, i was a happy guy, finally an eclipse, with a turbo. None of my friends had a forced induction vehicle, i spent so much money on this, i finally got it in my car, i thought i had it all..and finally no more being revd on and have to back out of a race...no more have to say that my eclipse didnt have a turbo...no more bickerin that eclipse arent fast...now its time for payback.....

on the 2nd week..........smoke started coming out of the engine again..popped the hood..smoke, and oil....deja vu?...yup, ran a compression test, cyclinder 3...no compression..NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

its january now..i gave my car for turbo install first week of april..3 weeks later i got my car back, a day later my car broke...the guy took 2 mos to fix my car b4 finding out it was still broken..took 4 days to fix it...ran my car another 2 weeks..busted a piston again..that was last week of june....now my eclipse just sits there in the lot..under a cover..tragic huh? Can you believe that i bought this car brand new in march 1999, it now has over 80k miles, since i love driving my car, and after i had my turbo installed, between march till now, i was able to drive it less than 400 miles???

anyways, sorry for the boring story, heres what im lookin for. I need all the input of what i should do about my car. Anything you can throw at me, tell me. What should i do, what should i get, where should i go..i live in San Diego. For now, i dont trust alot of mechanics, after what ive gone through, im so picky to find an honest mechanic, and im also desperate cause i love my car and worked my ass for it. A lot of people told me what to do, and what to get, but being me, i wanna do my homework. I dont want this to happen again, i want to get it fixed, get it done right, and not worry about it for a long long long time. I know its possible for my GS to run on turbo without problem, i know its possible to boost higher and still be a daily driven car..and i believe in the 420A engine in it. To all the gurus, let me know, and thanks for taking the time to read this.

Parts:

Garret Turbo T3
Greddy Type-S BOV
RC fuel injectors
Apex'i AFC
Holly Fuel Pump
Deltagate Wastegate 6psi
Xs-Engineering 20'x10'x3 Front mounted IC
Custom pipings
Star Performance Turbo Manifold
Autometer Air/Fuel Ratio--Boost Gauge--Oil Pressure Gauges
Blitz Turbo Timer

This is the color and what my car looks exactly.

<img src="">

~OZ 10th Annv. Edition~

I think the problem is insufficient fuel. You can't just run a bigger fuel pump and/or bigger fuel injectors (this will depend on the size of the injectors); you will also NEED that FMU to provide the extra fuel needed when you are in boost and at WOT. The bigger fuel pump alone will not provide enough fuel volume; you will also need an FMU and possibly some form of fuel controller, i.e., an S-AFC, 8-injector setup, piggy-back or standalone fuel controller. So, you will need a fuel return line in order to install the FMU.

What is your current fuel setup like? I don't think your problem has anything to do with a BOV at all. You are not getting enough fuel with just the stock fuel pressure regulator and the bigger fuel pump.

___________
Kon C

"Sometimes, a man has to do what a man has to do."

yea you definetely need an FMU. what size injectors are you running? you should see what the rest of us star performance kit users are running, because your setup is similiar. good luck getting it back on the road.

-Joe
___________________________________
White 98 Eclipse GS MT
Star Stage 2
*Stolen - 10/24/03*

When going for a custom turbo set-up, the best thing to do is find out what the kits come with, and sort of use it as a "checklist". Make sure you have all your bases are coverd.

As for your current problem, I agree with what the other two said, low fuel. When upgrading your fuel system, you have to upgrade ALL of it in order to see the difference. Bigger fuel pump may be able to pump more, but the injectors will be maxed, as is the FMU, etc.

What should you do now?

Well after you have your fuel situation resolved, it looks like you need to rebuild. The non-existant cylinder is a pretty good indication . If you want to do it right, so that you only have to do it once (probably), buy forged internals with lowered compression. After that you will be able to boost 15 psi daily with out a problem.

A decent place to start looking is www.howellautomotive.com, with their bottom end kit. Also read up on the Hahn turbo setup at www.hahnracecraft.com, and make sure you've got everything covered.

Hope I helped, don't hesitate to ask more questions. Welcome to 2GNT.

amiller99rs: seriously, chicks suck sometimes
amiller99rs: like if a girl walked by and said "Hey, nice cock" and just kept going you'd smile all day about that

Thanks guys for the info..

My fuel system is this

RC injectors 550cc
Holly Fuel Pump
Apexi S-AFC

some have told me i should get an FMU (which i originally had but said its worthless) and some said that with my set up with the RC and Holly and AFC is good enough. I'm going to check with that. Also, i contacted a vendor that sells forged pistons with compression of 8:5:1....is that good enough??? with standard bore.

Please, give me as much info as you can. I appreciate it, and thanks for the welcome

<img src="">

~OZ 10th Annv. Edition~

First I would check your compression, see what it is... second.. dont drive it, your running lean, and you need to up the fuel pressure, your friend sounds like he doesnt know what hes talking about when he installed your turbo. I didnt really read the other people above what they said but im going to say. Your car DOES have a fuel return line its back near the fuel tank. What they call the oil is Blowby it is normal, to a point... dont worry about it now... check the compression ASAP. and let us know.

Boca Raton, Florida
95 Eclipse GS- sold
99 Eclipse GSX- 386awhp
98 Eclipse GS- sold
92 Prelude

wazzup bro you did the same theing i did and that was running stock pistons, it won't hold they'll keep cracking get some weisco standard bore 8:5 compression thatz what i got and you do have a return line you need at least a 1:1 FMU or get th S-fmu over time hairline cracks will get bigger on stock pistons trust me I kept building with stock stuff and the pistons kept cracking. you live in SD there should a hella lot of good shops down there. I live up here in palmdale , SoCali

>First I would check your compression, see what it is...
>second.. dont drive it, your running lean, and you need to
>up the fuel pressure, your friend sounds like he doesnt know
>what hes talking about when he installed your turbo. I
>didnt really read the other people above what they said but
>im going to say. Your car DOES have a fuel return line its
>back near the fuel tank. What they call the oil is Blowby
>it is normal, to a point... dont worry about it now... check
>the compression ASAP. and let us know.


PowerEclipses- His car is a 99. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here but anything after 96 is returnless. I have a 98 GS. NO fuel return line.

You NEED an FMU (12:1 I think with stock injectors)and a HI-PRESSURE fuel pump if you run stock injectors. Those 550's you have are much too big for use with only 6psi. put the stockers back in or opt for 270cc or 310cc injectors instead. The AFC can only trim down the fuel so much. This has nothing to do with your BOV. -Sean

Built 420a
NER turbo kit T3/T04s ball bearing
AFX UDP
Crane 0014 cams

yes your fuel system is too inadequite. You should get either the FMU or SFMU to raise your fuel pressure with boost. Right now the larger injectors and SAFC are only controlling your fuel, which may not be enough or very accurate when under boost. Also, to run the 550's, you have to lean out the injectors quite a bit with the SAFC, which will in turn increase your ignition timing, causing detonation under boost. That will crack piston ring lands right away. I suggest this fuel setup:

Vortech SFMU
315cc Fuel injectors
Walboro or Accel inline or intanke fuel pump. Not sure what that
Holley fuel
pump does, but you NEED high flow, and high pressure cappable pump.

Get rid of the SAFC IMO..plays with our ignition timing too much

13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)
My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

hmmmmm....are you guys all sure about the fuel return line???

like i said, i had the 10th anniversary version of the eclipse GS..i know most of you have up to only 8000 RPM in your gauge, mine goes to 9000RPM. The second guy who worked on my car said for some reason my engine was configured slighty different than the 95-98 model. the guy worked on other N/T Eclipses before and he encountered problems with mine that he never had with the others. And i get mixed answers in many shops as saying i dont have a fuel return line on my version compared to everyone else. i dunno, im confused. The guy who set up my turbo, i'll probably never do business with him again and i already bad mouthed about his service. thats what you get when you hand it over to a guy who only turbos Hondas and Nissans. he even mentioned that my eclipse was the first he ever placed a turbo, i even asked him if he can handle it, but look where i am now. the injectors?? i have to check on that again. i remember him saying 550cc, but he also told me that while im in idle, i'll always run rich, and the s-afc is already set to the minimum for leaning it out. my fuel pump? its a high pressure fuel pump.

so, i guess i might have to get rid of that S-AFC huh? keep me posted.

<img src="">

~OZ 10th Annv. Edition~

Whatever u do if ur gonna spend more money on the car get forged pistons and rods, such as crower, eagle, JE pistons, wiseco. When you get that done then ur ok, and also ur block will have to be overbored .20 over.

PJJ

My opinion is..
Since you are spending so much money fixing your engine..
Just get a short block from someone whose selling it (I know a few people are selling them in the "For Sale/Buy Section") and swap it in..

Then hook it up with the forged internals, new head gasket, fix the timing belt and all..

That way, you can get higher boost, and you won't have to worry that much any more..

Just my opinion..

~Tacoman

"Yes, I really do want to get banned. I no longer want to spend hours upon hours online anymore. This site is great and all, but I don't want to come online anymore. I suck, period. Ban me, please.

Thank you.

-Tahleel"

Keep the sAFC. Just don't use it for drastic tuning. Remember that when you decrease fuel with the sAFC, you advance the timing, which can increase knock.
You are better off richening up with a fuel pressure regulator. It is easy enough to add a return fuel line. Get an sAFC and some smaller injectors. Use the sFMU to set the fuel curve and fine tune with the sAFC, try to choose an injector size that you need to richen out somewhat to fine tune it.
And it sounds like you hosed your shortblock. I would rebuild with a set of Weisco pistons with some Eagle rods, and a nice set of rings. Then you are all set to boost to a well-tuned 15PSI daily if you so desire.
-=B-=

Dude, Boeing called. They want their wing back.

Dark0ne95: There is a butthole on that girl that his going to feel the wrath of 23 yeras of worldwide hate.
Me: Can I put that in my sig?
Dark0ne95: GO right fucking ahead.

Since your a 99 your going to need a missing link or a fuel cut defender also. I did not see that on your list of parts. But yea your lack of fuel is what killed your engine.
Keep the AFC. Buy a SFMU and add the return line to your car.
Since your going to need to replace the pistons you might as well get some forged ones. I think race engineering sells them in stock bore for like 399 - 499 with rings. Your stock rods are good to like 13lbs of boost. So if you plan on going above 13lbs get some forged rods too.
Sorry you had to learn the hard way on this one.

I also think most everyone here will agree it is not an "IF" but a "WHEN" the stock pistons will go. Your about ten thousand times better off with the forged pistons.

Kevin
The old:


The new:

I believe only the '96 models have a FPR in the engine bay; in the later years, the stock FPR is near the gas tank. So, this guy will need to run a fuel return line to run the aftermarket FMU.

___________
Kon C

"Sometimes, a man has to do what a man has to do."

my thoughts exactly RXR_Eclipse.....

im trying to look for alternative ways to fix my ride without spending an arm and a leg for. i already got a sales quote from this shop whos ad is in most import magazine..they said they have a forged piston, standard bore, 8:5:1 compression for like around $369. also like i originally stated, i bought a Vortech FMU 10:1, in which they guy told me was useless. is it okey if i buy the same one??? or bigger one like 12:1? or does it need to be the SFMU. and also after this has been set up, do i have to take it to another shop, run it on a dyno so they can adjust my fuel curve in my S-AFC? since it might not be set up correctly. Thanks to all that responded to post. and also, im only lookin in to boostin like up to 10psi.

<img src="">

~OZ 10th Annv. Edition~

I like the flexibility of the sFMU. In fact, if I was setting up a turbo on my car today, that is what I would get personally. At that point, you have the choice in which injectors to use. I don't have any personal experience in boosting a 420a, so I will leave injector choice to those who have firsthand experience. The forged pistons seem to be a good deal at under 400 dollars... did he mention what brand they are? From the price, I would guess Weiscos... Good product. I would also get a set of Eagle rods since you will be tearing the block apart anyways. Besides, at 300 dollars or so, it is cheap insurance against another major failure in the bottom end. Just something to note... I would pull the engine out, get pistons, and then bring the block and pistons to a machine shop so that the tolerances can be precisely matched.
-=B-=

Dude, Boeing called. They want their wing back.

Dark0ne95: There is a butthole on that girl that his going to feel the wrath of 23 yeras of worldwide hate.
Me: Can I put that in my sig?
Dark0ne95: GO right fucking ahead.

I would get the SFMU due to its versitility (yea i know it is spelled wrong)in this manner. The super afc is only good to do "FINE" tuneing cause it can cause bad timing on our engines. So go ahead and get yourself a SFMU, you won't regret it. I think you can get them for around 300 ish.Hands down it is the best you can get. I have the cartech FPR and will be upgrading to the SFMU soon.

Kevin
The old:


The new:

yea im with the1bill on this the sfmu is very versitile and a good unit,

heres your list,
keep afc, the hks bov was fine it just needed some tuning on its pressure screw/spring,

get weisco about 400$ with rings, 350$ for eagle rods, lower end gasket kit from forum doge, like 45$ total, 40$ in bearings, have a shop check your crank sto make sure u dont need it turned, order some clevite 77 bearing in proper size,

get the gaskets u need which i dont assume u need another head gasket because they are reusable steel head gaskets, if u really want another top end kit its 83$ through forum doge, for the complete kit,

u want to use stock or slightly alrger injectors nothing above 30# id say, a return line dont come stock not that hard to make, figure 50$ or so, missing link is 50$

link for missing link fuel cut defender
http://www.synapseengineering.com/html/master_distributors.html

raceeng.com has pistons cheap and rods also, they can supply u the bearings too,

hit the search button on forum motors bob kise he gives us dealor parts at wholesale plus 5%
just mention the forums,

if u want to build the motor correctly u will definatly want to bore the cylinders its only like 48$ give or take depending on the shop and get .020 pistons other wise when u broke those pistons ill bet that they scarred the cyling a little or its out of round now its cheap insurance witha fresh bore...



thats all the help i can think of at the moment

You can have it cheap, fast or good. Pick any two.

If you want it cheap and fast, it's not going to be good.
If you want it cheap and good, it's not going to be fast.
If you want it good and fast, it's not going to be cheap.

Well, I have been boosting the 420A for quite some time now, and have done a lot of research on fuel systems for our cars. My advise to you is to listen to XtremeRS. Your current setup is causing WAY too much timing advance, and here's why: Our cars use a MAP sensor to control the length of the fuel injector pulse and ignition timing. You are running 550 cc/min injectors which require a TON of leaning out on the safc to function properly. The safc works by reducing the MAP sensor voltage that the cars computer receives in order to fool the car into thinking that there is less load on the engine than there really is. This does reduce the amount of fuel delivered, but unfortunately, it also increases the ignition timing by a large amount. The SAFC works best for cars equiped with a MAS sensor that is not used to calculate ignition timing. Your car is getting way to much advance which causes detonation and cracks pistons real quick.

A few other things: You will want to make sure that the injectors that your mechanic put in are high impedance injectors and not low impedance injectors. You need a Missing Link check valve put on your MAP sensor so it doesnt ever see boost. When the MAP sensor sees boost, it cuts fuel. With 550 cc/min injectors, you cannot use a 10:1 or a 12:1 regulator (WAAAAAY too much fuel). You would need a 1:1 regulator or close to that. If you want to try to keep using the 550's, here is what you need to do. Buy a good adjustable regulator that is close to 1:1 (I recommend Aeromotive or AEM). Set your base fuel pressure to around 15-20 psi of fuel pressure and use the safc to fine tune. You need to install a fuel return line like you do with the HRC and Star Performance turbo kits. If you want the ideal fuel setup for around 10 psi of boost, follow what XtremeRS said and sell the 550's, buy a set of 310's and a Vortech SFMU. This setup works perfect for that amount of boost once adjusted properly. To help you tune the car accurately, I highly recommend that you invest in a datalogger. This tool will give you your exact fuel trims and a/f readings as well as your exact amount of timing advance (in deg.) in real-time. If you already have a laptop, I recommend this one: http://obd-2.com/#dat

Also, If you want to run 10 psi of boost safely, you really do need forged pistons/rods. It sounds like you are on the right track there, but I thought I'd reinforce that point. Whatever you decide to do, let us know, so we can help keep you on the right track. A lot of us here have been working on this engine for a long time now and know a whole lot more about it than a general mechinic would. Good luck!

Matt
1995 Eclipse GS
2.0L, S16g Turbo, 8 Injectors, 26psi

1998 Eclipse GSX
2.3L Stroker, AEM EMS Converted to Speed Density, FP3065 Turbo, 35psi , and so on...

hey man i can help you get all that stuff at cost...i also have a fuel cut defensor that i'd like to get rid of..what it does is clamp the voltage that the map sees so that it doesn't go nuts when you go above 0 psi, you'll get fuel cut...pm me or post here..i can get you all the gaskets, internals..everything...i just did a full rebuild on mine and i saved myself a ton of cash w/ my wholesale license

400whp or bust.

Is there any way that you could get a missing link? I am not a big fan of the fuel cut defender, as it still exposes the MAP sensor to whatever boost you are running. Our MAP was meant to see vacuum only, and can be damaged by boost. The missing link actually limits the pressure that the MAP sees, and clamps it at 0 psi.
Neat piece, from what I have seen...
-=B-=

Dude, Boeing called. They want their wing back.

Dark0ne95: There is a butthole on that girl that his going to feel the wrath of 23 yeras of worldwide hate.
Me: Can I put that in my sig?
Dark0ne95: GO right fucking ahead.

hey Mr Blunt 2GNT...

give me an estimate how much its gonna cost me for these items..

8:5:1 standard or .002 bore forged pistons
forged rods
gasket kit
Vortech SFMU

im probably gonna get a Missing Link here in San Diego since they have a distributor down here. Lemme kno bro. Thanks for the help.

<img src="">

~OZ 10th Annv. Edition~

re: my fuel injector size..


RC 440cc

still too big??? let me know. also, FYI..the guy who worked on my car was "FIRED".....WOOHOOO!!!

<img src="">

~OZ 10th Annv. Edition~

No due respect to him but your friend is a moron. I didn't read all the responces above but here is mine. GET AN FMU. Then go from there. To run 10psi safely you do want to get forged pistons since u have to rebuild anyway get an sfu and you can run the 440's with the afc.. I wouldn't reccomend it but thats the cheap option. By the way don't kid yourself and think that 10 psi will keep you happy for long, because it won't. I would read this whole turbo section and make some choices that will posisition you for your future fixes.... you soon to be boost junkie. Look into the 8 injector setup and the others that are out there for the future.

I edited to the wiki!

To be brief...

8:5:1 JE pistons, Crower Rods, S-FMU, S-AFC, Missing Link --- then boost away.

______________________________

Ryan
IRyanHester@Hotmail.com

'03 Mazda 6s

hey much props to you Ryan RS...

thanks for the info..and to all..im more confident now that i got the answer, and happy to know you guys feel my pain.

Ryan, nice ride yo. I see u have the same as i do. tell me, did you run into any problems at all??? also nice website. hopefully, once im done getting the parts, and get my ride fixed, i'll take a pic of my ride and post it here...again thanks

<img src="">

~OZ 10th Annv. Edition~

>Ryan, nice ride yo. I see u have the same as i do. tell
>me, did you run into any problems at all???

I'm running the HRC stage1 kit. I have no intercooler, and am running 5psi, and it runs great. I've been turbo for about 5,000 miles and no problems yet. I have upgraded from the Cartech FMU to the Vortech SFMU, and have an SAFC that I have used to richen up my fuel curve (Although it takes away some power, I use it for safety..better rich than lean..) I've got a Boost, EGT, and Air/fuel gauge, and I keep an eye on my fuel pressure gauge under my hood - making sure idle fuel pressure is at 55psi and WOT fuel pressure is at 95-100psi.

With everything I've stated above and keeping everything in check, I feel pretty secure. No problems I will be adding an intercooler, once I get the money, along with 310cc injectors which I already have waiting to be installed.

>>also nice website. hopefully, once im done getting the parts, and get my ride fixed, i'll take a pic of my ride and post it here...again thanks

Thanks - and yea, go ahead and take some pics, even if you don't have much done to it yet, so we can see it's progress. Good luck

______________________________

Ryan
IRyanHester@Hotmail.com

'03 Mazda 6s