A lot of people around here have heard of my plans to build my engine and go turbo. Most always ask why i dont just get a used GS-T or GSX.i can find used ones here all day long for something like 13k, and it gonna cost me $4500+ to build my engine, get the turbo, and get a clutch. thats w/o labor. i know you guys( and me too) are really pro 420A, but for a fast car,(and id hate to admit this) is just going ahead and getting a GST more cost effective? cause 2k in mods to a GST could get me to what(HP) a stage 2 turbo system would be for our cars. also, can someone explain crankwalk to me? im unclear what it really is. please give me your unbiased opinions of what you think would be the best way to go. i need help deciding! thanks a lot guys.


1997 Eclipse
AEM CAI
Greddy Evo Exhaust
AFX Underdrive Pulley
Soon to be BOOOOOSTIN!

I don't know wht you have done to you're car but i got so much money and $h!t in mine I'm gonna slap on a turbo. I would loose
al my money and time if i bought a gs-t or gsx. crankwalk......
if you get that gs-t or gsx and you get crankwalk your f#@ked because mitsu won't claim up to it and at this time their is NO cure. NONE what so ever. many sops have tried to fix it but it comes back. I don't know exactly what it is but i think it has something to do with the bearin on the front of the crank.

chris
Project RS
"I wish my car was a chick magnet....instead it's a cop magnet!"
chrisdishmon@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/chrisdishmon/project_rs.html

It really is a hard decision...no doubt about it.

Besides the 4g63 engine that was put in the 2g's, most of those engines are pretty formidable as they come stock. PLus, if you could be guaranteed of getting a 2g that doesn't have the crankwalk, I would definitely tell you to go get a 2g-t, especially if you werent't too attached to the car your presently have and could get a good deal. Furthermore, as you noted, you'll have to pour a lot of money in your car to get some of the things you mentioned. Plus, doing all those things to a 420a won't be easy nor will it be close to the original intended purpose of the car.

I would say this then. What are your goals, and how much have you invested in the car you have right now?

These scenarios are for the person who ALREADY has a 420a.

Choice A is for this person:

If you only want a 200-250 HP car, don't care too much about the car you have right now and haven't invested much into it(the 420a), and am not one to want to mess with a lot of performance upgrades to your car...get the 4g63.

Choice B is for the person:

IF you want either a 140-170 OR a 250-300+ and above HP car, are REALLY attached to the car you have right now(already poured lots of money into it), like to constantly take care of and fiddle with your car, ...stay with the 420a.

Why do I limit the HP on the 4g63 to 200-250 horses? Because once you start spending enough money to go past that amount, you start to get into the same amount of money (more than $1000) you would have spent virtually on the 420a without selling it off and buying a more expensive car. The 420a may have th HG problems and the lesser internals, but the 4G63 has its own demons once you start going in the 250+ HP range (including crankwalk, tranny....etc.)

For me the choice was easy, since I easily fit in the choice B category. I know I haven't reached my goals yet, but that's the great part....just getting there!

Jason
98' Eagle Talon ESi-T
Mitsu Super 16g Turbo(HRC)


http://springfielddsm.homestead.com/JasonsPics.html

_____________________________________
Jason ESi-T

04' BMW 325Ci
91' Nissan 240SX
98' Eagle Talon ESi (sold)

I have to agree with Jason 100%... the problem with the 4G63T motors is crankwalk, but 90% of all the crankwalk case I have heard of are from people who are pushing about 250+hp out of the car. Those that are close to stock or still stock do not have the same likelihood of suffering from crankwalk. If you really want to read up on it, go to http://www.dsm.org and do a search for "crankwalk". I also have to say that the 2G tranny in the GST/X's do have a real problem too. But once again if the car is modded and pushing more than 250 hp. I'm no expert, but this is what I have heard from fellow DSMers here in TX thru mail groups. There are approx. 80 different DSMer's and I personnally know 2 in the last month or 2 who's trannys have gone tits up... the differential blew in both. So the ultimate decision rests with what your final expected outcome of the car will be... Good luck and keep us posted. I'm sure you will be happy with your decision if it is yours and not someone elses...

DoN

'99 GS Sports Edition
Star Stage 2, CFDF Clutch
Greddy Manual Boost Controller
Greddy BOV and EVO Exhaust
Greddy TT and shift knob
AF/X Underdrive Pulley
AEM Big Brake Kit
B&M Edge Short Shifter
Eibach Sportlines with Tokiko Blues

'99 Eclipse GS Sports Edition
Star Stage 2
Greddy EVO Exhuast
AEM Big Brakes
Greddy Type S BOV
Pioneer DEH-P7200
Bazooka EL1500 running 2 MTX 10" Subs
Fosgate Separates throughout

LAST EDITED ON 17-Feb-01 AT 10:13 PM (PST)

Thanks for all ur opinions guys, they are very appreciated. i LOVE my car very much....but i have done just about everything i can to make it faster(without expensive porting/boring or NO2) and it just isnt enough. it looks great to me, but its starting to lose that " i just wanna get out and drive it" feeling..ya know? cause im used to it bein sorda slow now. i in noway want some 300+hp drag car, i could care less about that, i just want to make it more fun to drive(i.e. FASTER!) i know you probably dont "need" to build the engine on it to run 250hp, but i want to do it right the first time, so thats why i wanna build up. ive heard so many GST horror stories about their reliability that im scared to get one...also, the difference in price for a GST with comparable mileage to mine would be in excess of 5k...plenty enough to make my car much faster and reliable. its just i live in a place where there arent a big selection of places to have an engine rebuilt or tuned. ill probably just end up goin with a turbo kit, cause hell, my car will be paid off in less than a year. thanks for the opinions guys. Please read my newest post in the engine/performance forum and tell me what your opinions on that are...THANKS!




1997 Eclipse
AEM CAI
Greddy Evo Exhaust
Groundcontrol coils/Tokico Shocks
AFX Underdrive Pulley
Soon to be BOOOOOSTIN!

First of all,

Go to Mr Hanhs page www.turbosystem.com, that page helped my decision to turbo my GS( kind of ). I even emailed them and inquire about the kit but didnt get a response I was hoping for so I got a Star kit instead. Anyways I never did like the idea of trading my car in and losing money(resale value sucks) and then gotta pay more for the GST/X models.



Star Stage 2

LAST EDITED ON 18-Feb-01 AT 12:14 PM (PST)

This is another board I am on. Love(a friend of mine who owns a GST and has a damn nice car might I add) posted this in responce to the question of what is crankwalk...

---------------------------------------------------------------
It's some F'd up shit!

There are several theories on what causes crankwalk, but no one seems to know for sure, which is why no one has a fix.

Theory #1:
Too much play in the crank, leading to eventual engine failure caused by a heavy racing clutch (i.e., using a 6 puck).

Theory #2: http://www.magnusmotorsports.com/crankwalktheory.htm

Theory #3:
He thinks the cylinder bores are not perpendicular
to the crank, putting an axial force on the crank. He has a boring machine from which he can measure the bore squarenesss and rebore blocks square.

Additional info: http://www.roadraceengineering.com/walkingcrankshaft.htm


More info from the Talon Digest http://www.dsm.org/menu.epl?item=10

>I have a (new to me) '95 Talon AWD with 32,000mi on it. In the last month or so I have noticed that when I make a sudden (sometimes not so sudden) left hand turn the clutch peddle becomes very mushy and won't return completely unless I raise it with my foot. Any help would be appreciated since I have never had a car with a hydraulic clutch before.

Sorry for the bad news but that is one of the indications of a walking crankshaft. When you make a hard left turn, the crank is so loose that it flops to the right towards the transmission. The clutch pushes the throw out
bearing back and that pushes the clutch slave cylinder back in just a bit.

When you go to push the clutch in, there is a bunch of extra travel in the pedal when the throw out bearing pushes the crank back first and then releases the clutch.

When I first heard of this happening, I thought the guy was nuts. Right up until I drove it and felt it my self.

Other symptoms are:
~A ticking noise from the crankshaft pulley area with the clutch depressed. Kind of a swooshing tickey noise. This is the crankshaft position sensor trigger plate rubbing on the crankshaft position sensor. The desired clearance (possible movement of the crankshaft side to side) is between
.002" and .007" with a maximum of .010". For the trigger plate to rub on the sensor it is moving more like .030".

~Stalling when the clutch is depressed. The trigger plate and crankshaft have been moving so much that the trigger plate is wearing through the sensor. It takes .050" to .060" for this to occur.

~Bearing particles in the oil filter. When you change your oil, keep the filter and cut it open. Look for lots of little flat flakes of metal in it. With the crankshaft grinding away at the thrust bearing, pieces of bearing
and crank trash are flowing through the motor. This will tear up the other bearings and can even get up in the head and score up the cam journals.

To check for the side to side free play, get the car up on jack stands. Take off the plastic cover at the crank pulley. Pry against the frame rail to get
the crank pulley pushed towards the transmission. Have an assistant push the clutch. Watch to see how much the pulley moves back towards the frame rail.

If you can see movement, you are probably screwed. Time to do some more accurate measurement. If you have access to a dial indicator, you could set it up on the back side of the flywheel at the bottom. Remove the transfercase and the lower cover for access.

So far here in So Cal I have seen 10 walking cranks in 2Gs in the last year. I've talked to another 5 people in the last 2 months over the phone from other states with bad cranks too. A big 2600 lb clutch won't help things any
but I have seen it on 15K to 20K mile cars with stock clutches and a few on CF DFs also. The most recent was a 98 with 20K miles and a CF clutch.

Internet lore pegs the walking crank on certain 95s, most I have seen were on 96s and a few 97s and the one 98. Most get it fixed under warranty after returning the car to stock as much as possible. Some cars are either too far
gone with lots of mods or too much mileage to be covered under warranty that they just buy a complete used motor for the cheap way out.

What causes it ? I've heard a bad batch of bearings or bad tolerances on a run of crankshafts was the cause. Having the problem spread out over so many years kind of refutes that. There seems to be a 50% failure rate with motors
that are rebuilt and not replaced. In the factory manual there are 5 pages of complete gibberish on choosing the correct main and rod bearings for the
crank. If Mitsu can't get it right at the factory, what are your chances for sucess doing it yourself ?

We just put a 2G motor that had a walking crank together with some additional mods to the thrust bearing. We tried cutting a small groove in the bearing journal under the bearing to direct some oil to the clutch side of the thrust face. We drilled a few small oil holes to try to get better
oiling to the thrust face. We also disabled the clutch switch so that the motor can be started with out pushing in the clutch. Just trying all the little things that might help. We won't know for some time if it does.


Love
98 Eclipse GST
90 Talon Tsi AWD
---------------------------------------------------------------

Hope this answered any questions people may have...

DoN
'99 GS Sports Edition
Star Stage 2, CFDF Clutch
Greddy Manual Boost Controller
Greddy BOV and EVO Exhaust
Greddy TT and shift knob
AF/X Underdrive Pulley
AEM Big Brake Kit
B&M Edge Short Shifter
Eibach Sportlines with Tokiko Blues

'99 Eclipse GS Sports Edition
Star Stage 2
Greddy EVO Exhuast
AEM Big Brakes
Greddy Type S BOV
Pioneer DEH-P7200
Bazooka EL1500 running 2 MTX 10" Subs
Fosgate Separates throughout

There is tons of info to be had on crankwalk if you look around. So, since a couple of posts have covered it already, i won't get into it.

If you remember back to the last 4g63 and 420A argument, you'll remember a guy by the name of boostedv8killer. That's my buddy with a 97 GS-T. Well, just to give some news on his car, it got diagnosed with crankwalk last friday, and is gonna be getting a new shortblock put in it soon. And once the car is running again, it will be sold ASAP.

My opinion. turbo 420A...fuel systems suck. 4G63...Everything but the fuel system sucks. I dropped a friekin bolt inside my tranny, cracked the casing, patched it with a beer can and epoxy, used the wrong fluid now, and have been driving around for 300 miles just beating the bejesus out of my tranny. And still, no blown synchros. If i pounded on a 4g63 tranny this way, it would be toast by now.

But, like i said, i don't know how to give you an honest opinion on what to get. What i think would be a great setup for the 300 HP range is stock block till it is in bad shape, a hahn stage II setup, and then buy their accel DFI to controll fuel. Then when you need to have it done to to blow-by or a bent rod, build your motor with pistons and rods.

I think no matter what you do, unless you really enjoy working on your car yourself, you're bound to have headaches with it. if there was a solid cure for crankwalk other than putting a 1g motor in your 2g, i would definitely go for that. But, since there ain't, i don't know what to tell you.


jason
95 turbo GS

I just skimmed over all the posts.. I hope someone didnt already say this.. but Crankwalk can be "cured" ! The thing that needs to be done is the engine needs to machined to eliminate the weak link in the oil guides.. <-- more expenise than 420A turbo !

I personally love GSX's but i couldnt live with the fact that everyday i when i drive my car it might break down on me due to crankwalk. (happens on hard driven 2g's @ around 15-25k)
good luck !

i like the magnus motorsports theory on crankwalk. they are a very reputable shop amongst canadian DSMers. check it out at http://www.magnusmotorsports.com/crankwalktheory.htm they actually took the time to cut up a 1g block and a 2g block to see what the actual differences are. i acually found it quite interesting reading even though its not something i have to worry about

_______________________________________


95 Talon ESi-T