i have decided to go with a Hahn Stage 2 kit on my car, with the FMIC. i know the Star kit is cheaper, but i really fee lsafer with the Hahn kit, they are always there if you have a problem, i dont think anyone knows how to get ahold of Star. anyways, i will be upgrading the engine internals also, as this will be my daily driver and i want it to be safe. should i get crower rods? i dont have dreams of a 300hp drag car or anything like that, i just want a pretty quick car thats fun to drive...would rods be over kill or should i just i get pistons/rings? what fuel upgrades should i make? i know the Hahn comes with the upgraded fuel pumps, what size and brand of injectors should i run? i will also get a S-AFC to help tune the system. are JE Pistons and rings the best to get? or are there better ones out there? if i just went with the pistons/rings, and upgraded the injectors to,say,440cc, and got a S-AFC, what boost level could i run safely?do you have to have an electronic boost controller to raise the boost? i was referred to this site from dsmtalk.com and i must say, its REAL nice to be around more of my kind!!! thanks for any help you could give.

LAST EDITED ON 31-Jan-01 AT 10:38 AM (PST)

I'm glad you're over here GS. I'll take the first stab at some of these questions, but I think they've all been answered before to some degree withint the posts using the "search" option.


>should i get crower rods?
>i dont have dreams of
>a 300hp drag car or
>anything like that, i just
>want a pretty quick car
>thats fun to drive...would rods
>be over kill or should
>i just i get pistons/rings?

I think with upgraded internals, the way to go that most recommend is the rods and pistons. HRC sells the whole thing for about 1100 and that includes the JE pistons, Crower rods and rings. At the same time, you can install the MLS headgasket and be done with all of it! This is the PROVEN way to go as many other have this setup and boost plenty high without any problems!


>what fuel upgrades should i
>make? i know the Hahn
>comes with the upgraded fuel
>pumps, what size and brand
>of injectors should i run?


For up to 10 pounds of boost, the HRC system with the second fuel pump should satisfy any of your fuel needs. Above that, it's highly recommended to get some form of ECU help to manage BIGGER injectors.

>i will also get a
>S-AFC to help tune the
>system. are JE Pistons and
>rings the best to get?

There may be better, but everyone in this board goes with JE for the large part. They're the ones that work and I haven't heard of any blown pistons with these heavy duty internals.(at least if you're not boosting over 20-25 psi)

if i just
>went with the pistons/rings, and
>upgraded the injectors to,say,440cc, and
>got a S-AFC, what boost
>level could i run safely?


Don't forget the rods. Chris (Murix) currently runs a similar setup and boosts up to 17 psi. That's also with 400 cc injectors on his setup.

do
>you have to have an
>electronic boost controller to raise
>the boost?


Not at all, get a manual one. They'll work nearly as good.

i was referred
>to this site from dsmtalk.com
>and i must say, its
>REAL nice to be around
>more of my kind!!! thanks
>for any help you could
>give.

I'm glad to see ya here as well! YOu might also want to consider either a Crane or a MSD ignition amplifier.


Jason
98' Eagle Talon ESi-T
Mitsu Super 16g Turbo(HRC)


http://springfielddsm.homestead.com/JasonsPics.html

_____________________________________
Jason ESi-T

04' BMW 325Ci
91' Nissan 240SX
98' Eagle Talon ESi (sold)

I agree with Jason! There is just one thing. Hahn "recomends" that we do not use any type of boost controler on their set ups. I dont know if this would pose a prob with the warranty. Bill or (HRC) could probably clarify that question. As far as upgraded internals, I would recomend it if you have the resourses. The reason being, once you get used to the 7-9 PSI, you will want more. I know cause most of use started with the CAI and now have or are going to turbo's (not all of us but a lot of us). So if and when you get the itch to boost more than 9 psi on stock internals, you will granade your motor, and be forced to do what you should have done in the first place. Build your bottom end. Thats my .02 worth. I am not doing the internal
buld up yet, cause I want to see how Skrilla's Stroker kit comes along. If all goes well I will be doing my internals then. Hit skrilla up, we may need more takers on the group buy strokers.
Oh and welcome to the board!!!!!!
SEE YA!!!!!!!!!MWC http://smkn95eclipsemwc.homestead.com/mainpage.html

Hopefully by april i will be able to let you all know exactly how long our stock bottom ends can stand up to nearly 13 lbs. of boost that i plan to be running. So, if you haven't all figured out yet, i have a haltech E6K ordered. I'd rather not be the guinea pig with it, but hell, why not...we'll let you all know what it can do.

Ohh, and for anyone who wonders why i don't just build my bottom end instead, i don't see the point without a supporting fuel system first. They are about equal in price. At least with this i can run slightly more boost and run safer. I'll have full controll over my fuel and ignition curves. As for if i just built my bottom end, it still doesn't mean i can run more boost. I still wouldn't be putting more fuel into my motor. So, i figure go the opposite route of everyone else and get the fuel setup needed first and then worry about a built motor when i got more time to tear into my motor.

And, by the way, welcome to our board man. If you are seriously planning on tearing the motor apart to do the pistons, do the rods while you are at it. Ours are a cast powdered type that can shatter at around 300 horses according to hahn. And, if you do get the 440's and an AFC, chris (Murix) would be the one to talk to. He's got that setup running rather well on his car.

Like I mentioned in my post on DSMtalk.com, if you want to do rods, pistons, and injectors, you should seriously look into the hahn stage III package instead of just the stage II. It all comes together in one package, and their fuel module is already tuned for the larger injectors. If you total up what you will spend elsewhere on everything, it will probably cost you the same, and will be easier to obtain everything in the long run.

jason
95 GS turbo

Something to think about here -

Joe A. actually runs 12psi on a stock bottom end on a HRC stage II with no additional fuel mods beyond what HRC provides. The one that helped I think is he has a thicker copper head gasket to lower compression. He would be able to clarify this better, but I beleive he has been running 12psi for at least 6 months with no problems, except his stock clutch finnally giving out after over a year of abuse. I think he has gotten it right.

MuRiX
97 Eclipse GS HRC Stage II
And a whole lot of other mods...
89 Accord LSi - yes it's mine
http://murix.home.icq.com/index.html

05 Mazda RX-8
06 Lotus Elise

Oh, and with the mods you listed, I say 18psi daily driven, pump gas. 15psi if you just want to play it safe. You would not be able to contain yourself at 12psi. Really, it wouldn't be necessarry either. With the rods/pistons, your engine would be much more durable than a 4G63.

MuRiX
97 Eclipse GS HRC Stage II
And a whole lot of other mods...
89 Accord LSi - yes it's mine
http://murix.home.icq.com/index.html

05 Mazda RX-8
06 Lotus Elise

what PSI are you boosting at? you run at the track any? you car looks GREAT! what times do you run? also, you said i would be able to run 18psi, 15 to be real safe. what HP level would i be at boosting at 15psi? you use a S-AFC..is it hard to tune? thanks for any info man!

I run 15-18psi on a regular basis. I have been runing 17psi lately. I have not had any good track runs since I have had this setup. I have been to the track a couple of times, but in far less than ideal conditions so I'm embarrased to share my times It was wet and rainy and we rolled in 10 minutes before the track closed. So I'm not telling hehe. Don't worry though, there is a track in Atl that I can get practice on once it opens back up. As for HP level, it is tough to say because it would depend on your other mods, but it should get you well over 300hp very easily and reliably. The trick to teh AFC is to use an A/F gauge and an EGT and take your time. Watch your temps and your fuel pressure and slowly turn up the boost. You cold also cheat like I did and use a dyno and a wideband o2 sensor. Hehe. That is the best way, but not available to everyone.

Good luck,

Chris

MuRiX
97 Eclipse GS HRC Stage II
And a whole lot of other mods...
89 Accord LSi - yes it's mine
http://murix.home.icq.com/index.html

05 Mazda RX-8
06 Lotus Elise

Our rods are forged powdered not cast.


Stan2gnt
Stan2va@aol.com
95 Talon ES-I-NOS
http://members.nbci.com/FlyEsi/home.htm
You too can have a never updated site complete with old info and dated pics!

:farfrommugen:
Yes I still own a 2gnt.
Damn right I've been here longer than U
klassic_liven@yahoo.com

This is kinda realted...

the connecting rods in the stroker kit can take 1000HP+. I was really suprised(and impressed).They are custom Pauter rods and are about twice as thick as Crower's(pretty unbelievable) and are heavier than stock, but if you have the JE pistons(I might do Ross custom slugs) the weight is offset and will be VERY lively with about 5lbs+ of metal removed("knifed") from the crank.

I get this question emailed to me a lot so here is the answer: The 420a Crankshaft IS NOT knifedged from the factory. There is some counter weight that can be removed but certainy no balance shafts either (like the 4g-63T is supposed to have and 2.4L 420a)

Skrilla
'97 Base Talon NA
"Technology is the Only Substitute for Displacment"
"Peace and Turbo Grease"

*Skrilla
"Honest officer, I thought you were trying to race me"
Talon: 1st 2.4L
'97 Prelude
'04 350Z

Originally posted by etx
Good luck man! Project 'STFU Brian your talon is dead meat' should be on it's feet soon!

thanks a lot for your info! sure wish i had heard about this site a LOT earlier...about the Hahn stage 3 kit...it comes with JE pistons/Crower rods, and bigger injectors? thats what i wanna do, but i emailed Hahn and they said it wasnt ready yet, but the stage 4 was... i dont wanna go that high, i really wanted only 10 or 12psi, but i wanted it SAFE, hence the upgrades. when i emailed hahn, they said a Electronic boost controller would work great?? id like to be able to turn the boost down for daily commuting and up when someone wants to race, or im at the track. whats the price of the hahn stage 3? i went to their site and there wasnt a price for it. thanks for all the help.

I went to their site about a month ago, and they had a link to all their stages and prices and what they come with. Now that link seems to be missing for some reason, i am guessing cus their stage 3 isn't done yet like you said.

I think if i remember right, someone else said that they tried asking about stage3 and it wasn't done. I don't remember what the price i read was though...

jason
95 GS turbo

Skrilla: The 420A crankshafts I have seen are all knife edged, in both Neon and DSM. Are you looking on the leading edges of the counterweights? The double bevel evident there is a knife-edge.

Bill Hahn Jr.
98 RS Turbo: 10.87 @ 136 MPH
HRC Stage V with N20
Nation's Fastest Street FWD 2G DSM
www.turbosystem.com

All: The info on Stage III is still there, maybe try again? You are correct in that it is not ready for sale at this time, but will be soon!

Bill Hahn Jr.
98 RS Turbo: 10.87 @ 136 MPH
HRC Stage V with N20
Nation's Fastest Street FWD 2G DSM
www.turbosystem.com

Yes, I was refering to the counter weights since they also dip into the oil, which I always thought was part of the knifedging but thanx for the clarification and your 420a support

Skrilla
'97 Base Talon NA
"Technology is the Only Substitute for Displacment"
"Peace and Turbo Grease"

*Skrilla
"Honest officer, I thought you were trying to race me"
Talon: 1st 2.4L
'97 Prelude
'04 350Z

Originally posted by etx
Good luck man! Project 'STFU Brian your talon is dead meat' should be on it's feet soon!

Interesting about the crank - mine looked like it was so we opted against doing a knife edge and just polished it. Are you sure it's not knife-edged??

MuRiX
97 Eclipse GS HRC Stage II
And a whole lot of other mods...
89 Accord LSi - yes it's mine
http://murix.home.icq.com/index.html

05 Mazda RX-8
06 Lotus Elise

Could you clarify your fuel system for me once more. Are the fuel pump, Adjustable boost dependent regulator, AFC and upgraded injectors the extent of your fuel upgrades (stage II plus injectors and AFC) or is there more needed to run say 14lbs of boost. Who sells thicker head gaskets and can a 400cc injector be made to work with a non adjustable FMU and AFC (can an AFC compensate for that large an injector and the 90+psi of pressure or would 400cc injectors not be a good idea with a non adjustable FMU. Does an adjustable FMU change all this. Sorry for the barage of questions and yes I know there's a search feature).


Stan2gnt
Stan2va@aol.com
95 Talon ES-I-NOS
http://members.nbci.com/FlyEsi/home.htm
You too can have a never updated site complete with old info and dated pics!

:farfrommugen:
Yes I still own a 2gnt.
Damn right I've been here longer than U
klassic_liven@yahoo.com

>Could you clarify your fuel system
>for me once more. Are
>the fuel pump, Adjustable boost
>dependent regulator, AFC and upgraded
>injectors the extent of your
>fuel upgrades (stage II plus
>injectors and AFC) or is
>there more needed to run
>say 14lbs of boost.

It is the HRC provided fuel system with new injectors and AFC. Nothing else. Not a bad deal to run higher boost on the street I think.

Who
>sells thicker head gaskets

Unfortunately, the shop where both Joe A. and I received our headgaskets from has changed ownership, name, and number so I am not sure how to contact the new shop. I think you can go to http://headgasket.com/ though to get one. Maybe Joe A. knows if the new shop can still get these similar to his and how to reach them?


and
>can a 400cc injector be
>made to work with a
>non adjustable FMU and AFC
>(can an AFC compensate for
>that large an injector and
>the 90+psi of pressure or
>would 400cc injectors not be
>a good idea with a
>non adjustable FMU. Does an
>adjustable FMU change all this.

I wouldn't trust the AFC alone to adjust for the pressure level I had to increase to for the 400cc to flow enough fuel at 15lbs and still be able to idle properly. That is a wide range it would have to cover. I do not go over 70psi on my fuel pressure btw as that is all that is needed at these boost levels. I would stick with an adjustable fmu if you go to larger injectors.



MuRiX
97 Eclipse GS HRC Stage II
And a whole lot of other mods...
89 Accord LSi - yes it's mine
http://murix.home.icq.com/index.html

05 Mazda RX-8
06 Lotus Elise

The SAFC can support up to 550cc injector with our car running the stock computer/PCM

Skrilla
'97 Base Talon NA
"Technology is the Only Substitute for Displacment"
"Peace and Turbo Grease"

*Skrilla
"Honest officer, I thought you were trying to race me"
Talon: 1st 2.4L
'97 Prelude
'04 350Z

Originally posted by etx
Good luck man! Project 'STFU Brian your talon is dead meat' should be on it's feet soon!

LAST EDITED ON 05-Feb-01 AT 04:02 PM (PST)

Yeah but 550cc injectors at the typical 45-65pis of fuel pressure is one thing. 550cc injectors with a non adjustable riser pumping up fuel pressure to 90+ psi on boost seems like a lot for an AFC to have to compesate for. If our injectors flow 235cc at typical 45ish psi and enough fuel for 9lbs of boost with a 12:1 riser bumping up FP to 90psi imagine how much fuel is flowing with the same riser (and FP) with 550cc injectors. The AFC would have some serious cutting back to do. I'm not concerned with the adjustable capabilities of the AFC until higher fuel pressures are reached.

Now that I think about it without an adjustable regulator you still haven't fixed the situation of high fuel pressures even if you do add an AFC and injectors. Might as well just get the AFC unless you plan on boosting past 9psi.


Stan2gnt
Stan2va@aol.com
95 Talon ES-I-NOS
http://members.nbci.com/FlyEsi/home.htm
You too can have a never updated site complete with old info and dated pics!

:farfrommugen:
Yes I still own a 2gnt.
Damn right I've been here longer than U
klassic_liven@yahoo.com

unless you were using a strong enough pump like a 270(I've only seen 1 also by walbro) or two pumps like HRC's setup

Skrilla
'97 Base Talon NA
"Technology is the Only Substitute for Displacment"
"Peace and Turbo Grease"

*Skrilla
"Honest officer, I thought you were trying to race me"
Talon: 1st 2.4L
'97 Prelude
'04 350Z

Originally posted by etx
Good luck man! Project 'STFU Brian your talon is dead meat' should be on it's feet soon!

I was refering to the 10+ pounds of counterweight. Removing about 5 pounds will do WONDERS for your engine's revving as well as seriously removing parasitic drag

Skrilla
'97 Base Talon NA
"Technology is the Only Substitute for Displacment"
"Peace and Turbo Grease"

*Skrilla
"Honest officer, I thought you were trying to race me"
Talon: 1st 2.4L
'97 Prelude
'04 350Z

Originally posted by etx
Good luck man! Project 'STFU Brian your talon is dead meat' should be on it's feet soon!