Well I did turbo my 420a but am currently saving for the buildup and wanted to order pistons with custom comp ratio. So since I alredy need to do some numbers for that I decided to try and find a way to help in the ring land problems I've seen here so many times and seems to be a defect in the design of the lands themselves (i'm hoping) the other misfit could be the material itself but since even forged pistons have had the same trouble with the lands, it's unlikely. So I need some input on which land is the one that cracks and descriptions of the damage, and details to the temps and such are very important, ans also the rings used. Thanxs and may this help us improve on our cars..



P.S.
Yes, I will share the info once I try the modified pistons. And will give all the details so you guys can also benefit from this.

Status- Need to do break-in...



Try not to challenge me, I'd rather tie up than lose. Either way you NEVER WIN.... - Me..

I don't believe it is an issue with the pistons, contrary to popular belief on this site.

It's an issue of ring gap size. During a series of repeated detonation events, the rings are subjected to extreme temperatures that cause the ring to expand and the ring gaps to butt against each other. The ring can no longer expand and thus locks against the cylinder wall. Note that every picture you will ever see of broken ring landings on our car occur in the same side of the piston. I believe this is because the stress is applied to one side of the piston during the upstroke or downstroke as the ring locks in the cylinder.

So many people jump to say that our pistons have a bad design/are brittle. I think the stock pistons are actually quite robust. Run proper ring gaps on stock pistons, and broken ring landings would be much less common BANME!. Our stock ring gaps are not sized for boost.

It's just a theory of mine, of course, and I won't be able to test the theory now that I'm running forged pistons. Realize that there have been people who have run 15 psi on stock pistons. They don't break things - probably why they don't post often - they know what they are doing.

EDIT: the acronym for in my humble opinion is banned. okaaaaaay

2gnt: '99 RS-T, killed by a toyota, pending rebuild...
Daily: Volt
Daily #2: '99 EVG ebike- STOLEN by PEDRO

Huh? Who's cracking ringlands on JE's? Check your tuning (possibly ring gap I guess).

Captain Caveman

96 RS Turbo 11.414 @ 119.62 MSNS, Crower 2 NA cams, BW366, 10.5 comp, UDP, 60mm TB, W/A intercooler, 3.55 tranny 567.9whp 430tq
97 RS NA 13.188 @ 103.87 MSnS powered 12.5 comp, Crower 3's and 219.4whp with 175tq
98 RS DD 12.5 comp on stock ECU, LTH, Crower 2's, Koni, GC, Hypercoil, DG hats
99 OZ 5sp Stocker 15.856 @ 85.97
99 GS stocker auto 17.7@77mph!

wiki home page:http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=bullettdsm

OK , so you think it's due to ring gap, rather than the lands themselves. So do you suggest more ring gap or less?

Status- Need to do break-in...



Try not to challenge me, I'd rather tie up than lose. Either way you NEVER WIN.... - Me..

Your ring gap depends on what you want out of your motor. If you plan on running a lot of boost than you gap them a little wider. For NA motors the gaps could be smaller.

98 Eclipse GS Turbo
Built motor - MS2 - Holset hy35 - Zoom Stg 4 Clutch - 57.5mm TB - ARP Headstuds - Turbonetics wastegate - 3" Turbo back - FMIC - Greddy RZ BOV - Walbro 255 - 650cc Injectors - Fidanza Flywheel - Cobra calipers w/ 13" Rotors - Oil Cooler - DevilsOwn meth injection

1981 Chevy Scottsdale
1987 Nissan 300zx - Chump Car
2001 BMW 325i

2gnt: '99 RS-T, killed by a toyota, pending rebuild...
Daily: Volt
Daily #2: '99 EVG ebike- STOLEN by PEDRO

Al of the above and lack of tuning. Just because your running the kit with the FMU doesnt mean the stock motor will hold up to unreasonable amounts of abuse (Detonation).

I have yet to read a cracked ring land on a forged piston with a fuel mixture properly tuned.

Terry

Hey, i was just reading through this and i thought the idea that has been posted about the ring landings is very interesting. I am actually in the proccess of replacing some stock pistons in my motor and have no problem bein the guinea pig for this. If i can get the info on the theory i'd love to try it. I have much the same belief that its not the pistons but a end-user error. Possibly a use issue, much like what was suggested, that the engine design is a good one but just wasn't intended for what we subject them to. This is not to say they can't take it. I say this because if the damned srt-4 motors that our engines share much in common with can take it why shouldn't ours.

But like i said, if i can get all this info, and i need exact stuff as the people who will be helping me are gona try and stop me from succeeding, i can be your guienea pig.

Just in case you need to do any recalculateing, i will be subjecting this thing to nitrous. Wet shot, up to 75 possibly more. I have a ported and polished stock IM, ARP head studs, 55MM TB (stock ported out), intake, headers, full exhaust, and a low mileage motor (bottom end). But like i said i'm replacing the pistons and head. I have to do this because of my dumb ass making an error that failed to secure a bolt in the throttle plate. You can guess the rest.

edit: This will involve some dyno testing. As i have posted before i have unlimited access to a dyno-jet dyno. So this can become factual. I have not tuning hardware. ie MS, Apexi, AEM. So this will be a brute force ressistanace test to see if i can gradually throw a stronger shot of nitrous at it up to 100 shot...maybe. Basically. If we do this. I'm gona try to break the 200whp barrier without a tune.

______________________________
If a sentence found online has 35% misspellings or greater and includes at least two racially charged expletives, chances are it is a YouTube comment.

'95 Eclipse TurboGS (garage deco)
'95 TSi AWD (restoring a survivor)
'97 Talon ESi-T (poor impulse control)
'99 Eclipse RS-T (daily beater)
'13 Evo X (mostly stock)
'17 Sienna (Middle Aged Dad Mobile)



Factory Service Manuals: http://nawdu.de/files/

tim, please contain yourself

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http://www.2gnt.com/quote_db.php?id=278

Outside of Corona: "That sucks, peace out..." (jamie walks away)... "Sweeet, what we doin?" -Zac
Tim's garage (prior to motor install): "Im gonna smoke real quick, that way if you fuck up I am already nicotined up" -Tim

I'm not tryin to be an ass but You completely missed the point of that post. It wasn't about starting an argument on the differences of an srt-4 engine and ours it was about trying a theory that could possibly help our engines.

The point of that comment was that the rest of the main elements of the two engines have alot in common, and if they can take it with little porblem then ours should have no problem (given the differences and limitations of each to be different in certain respects) producing more power on stock internals than is normal without a tune.

Now, can i get the info or am i going to be ignored? I'm going to be doin the change out sometime this week so its now or wait. I gotta know what i need to do so i can make sure i know what i'm doing.

What do you mean a theory that could help our engines???

As stated above its not the pistons/rods, it’s people like you brute forcing shit.
How are you going to compare a turbo charged engine from the factory to a NA...it is stated in this post on what you needed to do, so stop hijackings threads. The great info they gave you was clear as day.

http://forums.2gnt.com/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=104224&mode=full

I hope you know what you’re doing when you use nitrous without some type management to know what’s going on. Without a tune you’re askin for nothing but trouble patna.

-Rafiel

We could really just spell out that your wrong and you really dont get it do you?

Heh, you guys have no idea about Warmage. Yet.

___________________________________________



http://www.2gnt.com/quote_db.php?id=278

Outside of Corona: "That sucks, peace out..." (jamie walks away)... "Sweeet, what we doin?" -Zac
Tim's garage (prior to motor install): "Im gonna smoke real quick, that way if you fuck up I am already nicotined up" -Tim

.........................................................................................................................

Built. That's All...
.........................................................................................................................
www.monkeybuttpirate.com
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2 Fingers of Scotch with a milk back... Stat!

Is it that difficult to say how much in a unit that the rings need to be gapped to? All that's been said is that the gap needs to be increased!!! Does it need to be increased by a fuckin inch or a mile? Seriously. I guess it is difficult to give a simple answer. So you go with the easy dumbass route and just give me shit. That's fine. Take the easy way out.

And to second the one person who did give some sort of on topic answer...Thanks. But...I don't brute force anything on my engine. I havn't yet broken an engine from detination. I've broken two engines, one from its age 214,xxx and another by a simple yet costly mistake. But hey...who hasn't broken an engine? And yes it will be tuned. I have good tuning resources were i work. They will be both installing and tuning it. Between the two guys i work with we have over 40 years of experience.

Mikey your engine is having issues right now if i remeber. If i'm such a child then come up to the shop and say it to my face. Tim...i've never even met you...


...and by a theory i mean an idea. Most average guys who own a 2gnt don't know the first thing about ring gap or any of this. Something only helps if the people who need it know it and the more that know it the more that it will help. Not everyone is smart enough has enough money or even has the resources to put together a tuning unit. That's why tuning shops exist. You may be able to to it but not everyone can. And most shops don't support things like MS.


I love my DSM...
I love Horsepower...
So why do i own a DSM again?

Captain Caveman

96 RS Turbo 11.414 @ 119.62 MSNS, Crower 2 NA cams, BW366, 10.5 comp, UDP, 60mm TB, W/A intercooler, 3.55 tranny 567.9whp 430tq
97 RS NA 13.188 @ 103.87 MSnS powered 12.5 comp, Crower 3's and 219.4whp with 175tq
98 RS DD 12.5 comp on stock ECU, LTH, Crower 2's, Koni, GC, Hypercoil, DG hats
99 OZ 5sp Stocker 15.856 @ 85.97
99 GS stocker auto 17.7@77mph!

wiki home page:http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=bullettdsm

jesse, i don't have a problem with you. you're a good kid and i know you mean well. You just have a problem listening to people and learning. you have your theories about the strangest things about this motor and i just want you to head in the right direction as most of us do, but sometimes you just don't listen. It's just gotten to the point where i've given up trying to guide you in the right direction and to make smart choices. as far as my ring gap, machinist did mine lol. yes jesse, i am down for the count right now. rings are fried. i'm not pissed/sad, i'm actually happy because I have a chance to get into it again and make it better than ever. Nothing satisfies me more than to build 420a's.

___________________________________________



http://www.2gnt.com/quote_db.php?id=278

Outside of Corona: "That sucks, peace out..." (jamie walks away)... "Sweeet, what we doin?" -Zac
Tim's garage (prior to motor install): "Im gonna smoke real quick, that way if you fuck up I am already nicotined up" -Tim

Wow.

Dumbass way out? Cute.

Why dont you take that "40 years" of tuning experience and figure it out? I mean if your the "trailblazer" of DSM's in our area... This should be no problem.

Thank you. I hate to be pissy. I really do. I like bein nice. Sorry to have been but i was getting a bit frustrated.

Ok. So its a machinist question. I just needed to know what to ask and maybe some generalizations on gap. I'll be quick to admit that i personally have not too much experience with the deeper things of the DSM world. The two people i work with have a good bit with other platforms and are good tuners. We don't have a large amount of good experience with DSM's because we support honda and nissan platforsm. and in their oppinion our cars are shit. That's why this is slightly important to me. I like my car. I want to help improve the oppinions of DSM's were i work and in the tuning scene here.

Just to see if i can get a bit more oppinion, i'm going to throw out my simple plan as of right now. (which seems to change every five sec unfortunately)

I want to run betweem a 50-75 shot of nitrous to start with, but maybe more up to a 100. i'd like to hit 200 hp atleast or around there. I'm very conservative on how and when i beat on my car, so it doesn't take much abuse regularly. Now i did put a thread on what i'm tryin to do. But for that much hp wats a good guess as to what the ring gap on a stock pistons with new rings. I read 2X somthing from bulletdsm. But id think maybe a but lower for my intentions. Maybe 18-20? Any questions or things i may need in order to give my machinist the right idea or info to get it correct?

...and thanks mikey. I'd rather get along. But i take alot of crap at work about my car just because its a mitsu so i tend to not take it well when others talk about it or me...that's why i call people out and/or race them...it shuts them up. But i'm much happier to be friends than enimies.

dang that was a bit long

I don't have anything against TDC Jesse, but the last time an eclipse rolled through that place they said it would be the last. Chris and Avery just don't like working on DSMs. He just doesn't get the fact that some people are not about making the MOST horsepower or have the FASTEST car but havings something different and a hobby to work on. In my opinion MSnS is a pain in the ass but once you get the hang of it its not that bad. I think TDC should pick up the MSnS and put it on one of their/your car and play with it and actually use it. For 300 dollars you cant really beat it. I know now you can get Hondata pretty cheap or an SAFC and get it tuned but what if you don't have a honda? Are you going to not work on it? The thing that gets most people is that YOU are in control of everything, there is no base map or slider bars to tweak the fuel curve here and advance the timing there. With that being said, don't put your stock pistons back in and spray a 100 shot on it or you will be needing ANOTHER block. Just get a set of forged pistons, they are not that expensive. I gapped my top ring on my last set up at 19 and second ring at 17 or 18 I believe. I have it written down somewhere, and I didn't get any blow by and had great compression. There, I will go back to my shop and work some more.

Captain Caveman

96 RS Turbo 11.414 @ 119.62 MSNS, Crower 2 NA cams, BW366, 10.5 comp, UDP, 60mm TB, W/A intercooler, 3.55 tranny 567.9whp 430tq
97 RS NA 13.188 @ 103.87 MSnS powered 12.5 comp, Crower 3's and 219.4whp with 175tq
98 RS DD 12.5 comp on stock ECU, LTH, Crower 2's, Koni, GC, Hypercoil, DG hats
99 OZ 5sp Stocker 15.856 @ 85.97
99 GS stocker auto 17.7@77mph!

wiki home page:http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=bullettdsm

I've heard about the different issues you and others have had with MS. But if everything always went perfect then there wouldn't be any fun in tuning. And what can be the greatest weakness in MS is also its greatest strength. Its all based on the skill and abilities of the opperator/installer, which is also true of almost anything. That's why i like it. Its very adaptive too.

Okay, so about 19-20. The whole blow by and compression lost were the things i was worried about. I kept wondering if you went too big that they would lose compression. That's why i was asking.

I know man, i know...I've been tryin to change their oppinions on DSM's. That's why this is so crucial. I'm tryin hard not mess up and make some decent power, but we know how that's goin... I kinda wanted to do it on the stock bottom to show them it can be done, but if i get the money i want to put in forged pistons atleast.

how's you car comin zac? I havn't heard from you in a while. Get out that cave of yours man.


I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

Keep in mind that ring gap isn't just a number that you make up. On the pistons and rings you receive you have to calculate the gap based on your application, somebody elses gap might not work for you.

I wish I had blown it, believe me, I do...

Ok, just looked, top was a .017 and bottom was a .019 + or - .004. I had at .017 and at .019 because I built a tight motor.

I figured not just anyones gap would work. But the more numbers i get the more accurate guess i can come up with. Especailly since i can find out what setups people are running, if i don't already know. Well, this has been educational. Now its just wait and see. I'll be sure to post any findings i get.


I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

Wow theres much going on now!
Sorry I haven't replied to anything, been busy with college plus my tranny took a shit on me! My mechanic said the 2nd and 3rd synchros are dust, the 3rd fork looks like ass and the bearings need changing plus the seals of the axles need changing too. I had a quote from a parts dealer and just in parts $600...!!! If any of you know of a web site that sells this cheaper please let me know, so I guess I'm going to be waiting still more for the rebuild, plus also want to fix up the front suspension and set up the F/IC.



As for some one who asked of the forged piston with ring failure, well my friend did have that problem with his 11:1 comp. maybe it was due to 30psi boost!!!! haha He was racing a Porsche at least it made 4 runs to 4th or 5th gear and then bye bye, but he's still happy he beat the Porsche .... Who wouldn't

Status- Need to do break-in...



Try not to challenge me, I'd rather tie up than lose. Either way you NEVER WIN.... - Me..

Originally posted by Cyexmaster
Wow theres much going on now! Sorry I haven't replied to anything, been busy with college plus my tranny took a shit on me! My mechanic said the 2nd and 3rd synchros are dust, the 3rd fork looks like ass and the bearings need changing plus the seals of the axles need changing too. I had a quote from a parts dealer and just in parts $600...!!! If any of you know of a web site that sells this cheaper please let me know, so I guess I'm going to be waiting still more for the rebuild, plus also want to fix up the front suspension and set up the F/IC. As for some one who asked of the forged piston with ring failure, well my friend did have that problem with his 11:1 comp. maybe it was due to 30psi boost!!!! haha He was racing a Porsche at least it made 4 runs to 4th or 5th gear and then bye bye, but he's still happy he beat the Porsche .... Who wouldn't

I wish I had blown it, believe me, I do...

Captain Caveman

96 RS Turbo 11.414 @ 119.62 MSNS, Crower 2 NA cams, BW366, 10.5 comp, UDP, 60mm TB, W/A intercooler, 3.55 tranny 567.9whp 430tq
97 RS NA 13.188 @ 103.87 MSnS powered 12.5 comp, Crower 3's and 219.4whp with 175tq
98 RS DD 12.5 comp on stock ECU, LTH, Crower 2's, Koni, GC, Hypercoil, DG hats
99 OZ 5sp Stocker 15.856 @ 85.97
99 GS stocker auto 17.7@77mph!

wiki home page:http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=bullettdsm

___________________________________________



http://www.2gnt.com/quote_db.php?id=278

Outside of Corona: "That sucks, peace out..." (jamie walks away)... "Sweeet, what we doin?" -Zac
Tim's garage (prior to motor install): "Im gonna smoke real quick, that way if you fuck up I am already nicotined up" -Tim