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Subject: "Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"

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freddy_00_69	Aug-31-04 06:20 AM
Member since Aug 01st 2002 1119 posts,

#75715, "Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"

I am running intank fuel pump, inline fuel pump, sfmu,42lb green top injectors. I am using the 2.72 disk and my idle pressure is around 20, sometimes the pressure goes up to around 23 and it may sometimes go to around 17. My inaccurate a/f gauge reads in the green when first turning on car, and when i go wot it goes all the way to the last green on the gauge. I thought for 42lb injectors, the 2.72 disk is good. The 02 sensor is fairly new, the spark plugs gapped to 0.035 are a new also. Any suggestion or help is appreciated. I have enough problems trying to find my boost leak. Thanks in advance

99 RS-T
"New bottom end(8.6:1 w/long rods)"
Turbonetics 60-1/Portfueler/etc!!!!!

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Replies to this topic

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, siueclipse, Aug-31-04 06:26 AM, #1

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, freddy_00_69, Aug-31-04 03:12 PM, #2

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, siueclipse, Aug-31-04 06:53 PM, #3

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Ducking_Fumbass, Aug-31-04 07:31 PM, #4

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Ark, Aug-31-04 07:34 PM, #5

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Ducking_Fumbass, Aug-31-04 07:37 PM, #6

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Ark, Aug-31-04 07:37 PM, #7

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Ducking_Fumbass, Aug-31-04 07:39 PM, #8

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, freddy_00_69, Sep-01-04 06:14 AM, #9

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Mattchew, Sep-01-04 06:34 AM, #10

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, siueclipse, Sep-01-04 07:06 AM, #11

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, freddy_00_69, Sep-01-04 08:50 AM, #12

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Ark, Sep-01-04 11:32 AM, #13

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Team

Team

Michael_97RS, Sep-01-04 11:41 AM, #14

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, siueclipse, Sep-01-04 11:46 AM, #15

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Team

Team

Michael_97RS, Sep-01-04 11:49 AM, #17

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Ark, Sep-01-04 11:48 AM, #16

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Global Ruler Of All Things

Global Ruler Of All Things

DarkOne, Sep-01-04 11:57 AM, #18

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Ark, Sep-01-04 12:02 PM, #19

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, siueclipse, Sep-01-04 01:08 PM, #20

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Scandelous, Sep-01-04 01:13 PM, #21

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Ark, Sep-01-04 01:52 PM, #22

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, freddy_00_69, Sep-01-04 02:58 PM, #23

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Team

Team

Avenger, Sep-01-04 04:01 PM, #24

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, freddy_00_69, Sep-01-04 04:50 PM, #26

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Team

Team

Avenger, Sep-01-04 05:17 PM, #27

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Team

Team

ner947, Sep-02-04 07:39 AM, #36

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Mattchew, Sep-01-04 04:41 PM, #25

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, freddy_00_69, Sep-01-04 06:18 PM, #28

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, freddy_00_69, Sep-01-04 06:24 PM, #29

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, freddy_00_69, Sep-01-04 06:26 PM, #30

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Mattchew, Sep-01-04 07:04 PM, #31

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Ducking_Fumbass, Sep-01-04 07:29 PM, #32

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Scandelous, Sep-02-04 03:42 AM, #33

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, widebodied, Sep-02-04 04:21 AM, #34

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Scandelous, Sep-03-04 11:56 AM, #37

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, Mattchew, Sep-02-04 04:31 AM, #35

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, MrSlick, Sep-03-04 02:35 PM, #38

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, MrSlick, Sep-03-04 02:37 PM, #39

RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!, turbo8u, Sep-03-04 02:43 PM, #40

siueclipse	Aug-31-04 06:26 AM
Member since Nov 28th 2002 3504 posts,

#75716, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 0
Aug-31-04 06:29 AM by siueclipse

how much boost are you running?

did you put in the vacum restrictor in the air line going to the sfmu?

what (if you know) is your afr? do you have a wideband? keep in mind rich is a good thing. saves you money

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freddy_00_69	Aug-31-04 03:12 PM
Member since Aug 01st 2002 1119 posts,

#75748, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 1
Aug-31-04 04:10 PM by freddy_00_69

I do not have the restrictor in the vacuum line. I wish i did know my afr, i do not have a wideband, yet, and the closest dyno is about 2 hours away. My boost is hitting 16-17, but drops off to around 13. I do not mind running rich, but i dont like running to rich that every time i start off in first or normal driving and go wot, a cloud of black smoke comes shooting out. I think i am starting to see some whit smoke, but am not sure yet. I just noticed it tonight so i will check it out tomorrow. I still have to get my timing
right, water pump installed, and check my oil for any coolant in it. Could i use the 2.42 disk, i can try and tune it myself, but dont want to install without knowing if it will mess anything up by not suppling enough fuel.

99 RS-T
"New bottom end(8.6:1 w/long rods)"
Turbonetics 60-1/Portfueler/etc!!!!!

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siueclipse	Aug-31-04 06:53 PM
Member since Nov 28th 2002 3504 posts,

#75772, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 2

just about every turbo car shoots black smoke. its a good thing and will happen.

if youre running that much boost, you really need a wideband to know how she sits.

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Ducking_Fumbass	Aug-31-04 07:31 PM
Member since Aug 30th 2004 1147 posts,

#75773, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 3

It's a good thing? Wow... I didn't know that. HEY EVERYBODY! TUNE YOUR CARS LIKE SHITFACED POLESMOKERS! IT'S A GOOD THING!

Seriously, though, if you are seeing smoke, it is improperly tuned. If you have reached the physical limits of what you have to tune, then it is time for an upgrade. If it just takes more tweaking, then tweak. There are plenty of reasons to not push raw gas through the exhaust.

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Ark	Aug-31-04 07:34 PM
Member since Aug 31st 2004 1570 posts,

#75774, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 4
Aug-31-04 07:35 PM by Ark

Originally posted by freddy_00_69
My inaccurate a/f gauge reads in the green when first turning on car, and when i go wot it goes all the way to the last green on the gauge.

Originally posted by Ducking_Fumbass
It's a good thing? Wow... I didn't know that. HEY EVERYBODY! TUNE YOUR CARS LIKE SHITFACED POLESMOKERS! IT'S A GOOD THING!

Didn't you know that tuning via blinky A/F guages is entirely accurate and completely bulletproof?

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Ducking_Fumbass	Aug-31-04 07:37 PM
Member since Aug 30th 2004 1147 posts,

#75775, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 5

I guess, if you are too much of a strokeass to know how to tune, just run more fuel. Hell, who needs injectors? Just feed from the rail as fast as the fuel pump(s) will spit it out!

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Ark	Aug-31-04 07:37 PM
Member since Aug 31st 2004 1570 posts,

#75776, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 6
Aug-31-04 07:38 PM by Ark

Originally posted by Ducking_Fumbass
I guess, if you are too much of a strokeass to know how to tune, just run more fuel.

Hell, who needs injectors? Just feed from the rail as fast as the fuel pump(s) will spit it out!

I'll bring the garden hose and matches.

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Ducking_Fumbass	Aug-31-04 07:39 PM
Member since Aug 30th 2004 1147 posts,

#75777, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 7

Fuck it. Firehose + blowtorch = damned fine tuned car.

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freddy_00_69	Sep-01-04 06:14 AM
Member since Aug 01st 2002 1119 posts,

#75785, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 8

Well, most of those replies were worthless, except james. For the others, try to help out, not be dumb asses and smart. Dont waste your time or mine if your not gonna help.

99 RS-T
"New bottom end(8.6:1 w/long rods)"
Turbonetics 60-1/Portfueler/etc!!!!!

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Mattchew	Sep-01-04 06:34 AM
Member since Oct 23rd 2003 340 posts,

#75787, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 9

Originally posted by freddy_00_69
Well, most of those replies were worthless, except james. For the others, try to help out, not be dumb asses and smart. Dont waste your time or mine if your not gonna help.

I think the point was to tell you that they think that the information that James gave you was incorrect. At least the part about the black smoke.

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siueclipse	Sep-01-04 07:06 AM
Member since Nov 28th 2002 3504 posts,

#75798, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 10

Actually its not incorrect. Run a poll and see how many users kick out some black smoke from time to time. Damn near all turbo cars kick out some black smoke.

Personally I feel running ruch is a good thing because it keeps the motor running and keeps you from having to redo everything and spending an assload more money than we already do to make these cars fast.

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freddy_00_69	Sep-01-04 08:50 AM
Member since Aug 01st 2002 1119 posts,

#75811, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 11

I appreciate all replies, thanks. I will try and turn the boost down and try to play with everything and see what i can come up with. Thanks matt and james. I know you guys know more and have been turboed for alot longer than and i can trust replies from you guys. Maybe one day i can tune everything good and lay down 300whp, but for now i dont think i am close to that. I am gonna schedule a dyno day to try and figure it out.

99 RS-T
"New bottom end(8.6:1 w/long rods)"
Turbonetics 60-1/Portfueler/etc!!!!!

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Ark	Sep-01-04 11:32 AM
Member since Aug 31st 2004 1570 posts,

#75815, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 11
Sep-01-04 11:33 AM by Ark

Originally posted by siueclipse
Actually its not incorrect. Run a poll and see how many users kick out some black smoke from time to time. Damn near all turbo cars kick out some black smoke. Personally I feel running ruch is a good thing because it keeps the motor running and keeps you from having to redo everything and spending an assload more money than we already do to make these cars fast.

I think you're refering to cars tuned by pole smokers again. You're leaving out all the cars tuned by people that know what their doing and even stock turbo cars for that matter. I think it would be pretty embarrassing for a car manufacturer to have people test drive turbo cars and have a permenant cloud of unburnt fuel hozing their own special patch of ozone. But hey, if you're one to sacrifice power becuase you're too lazy to lean it out a tad and (god forbid) know what your fuel is doing and where it's going then be my guest.

I'm beginning to wonder when your reputation at toonerz is going to carry it's merry way over here. Get that vid up yet?

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Michael_97RS	Sep-01-04 11:41 AM
Donating 2GNT member 5866 posts,

#75816, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 11

Originally posted by siueclipse
Actually its not incorrect. Run a poll and see how many users kick out some black smoke from time to time. Damn near all turbo cars kick out some black smoke. Personally I feel running ruch is a good thing because it keeps the motor running and keeps you from having to redo everything and spending an assload more money than we already do to make these cars fast.

oh boy...

If you are running cams with overlap, fuel can get pulled through while both sets of valves are open.

If you are running stock cams and pushing a lot of black smoke dollars to pesos ou are running too rich.

Just because everybody else is too rich doesn't mean you should be too.

Just curious what you tuned your A:F to on the dyno?

Exile Racing Technologies: http://www.exileracing.com
So. All that's left, is... everything - Jesse James

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siueclipse	Sep-01-04 11:46 AM
Member since Nov 28th 2002 3504 posts,

#75818, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 14

11.2

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Michael_97RS	Sep-01-04 11:49 AM
Donating 2GNT member 5866 posts,

#75820, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 15

Originally posted by siueclipse
11.2

I wouldn't run that rich.

Exile Racing Technologies: http://www.exileracing.com
So. All that's left, is... everything - Jesse James

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Ark	Sep-01-04 11:48 AM
Member since Aug 31st 2004 1570 posts,

#75819, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 14

Originally posted by Michael_97RS
Just curious what you tuned your A:F to on the dyno?

Jose Cuervo and a blunt.

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DarkOne	Sep-01-04 11:57 AM
Donating 2GNT member 14938 posts,

#75824, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 16

Originally posted by Ark

Originally posted by Michael_97RS Just curious what you tuned your A:F to on the dyno?

Jose Cuervo and a blunt.

Dyno? More like an in-car wideband and a g-tech.

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Ark	Sep-01-04 12:02 PM
Member since Aug 31st 2004 1570 posts,

#75825, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 18

Originally posted by DarkOne
g-tech.

A wealth of information right from the cigerette lighter. Tasty.

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siueclipse	Sep-01-04 01:08 PM
Member since Nov 28th 2002 3504 posts,

#75827, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 19

i dont own a g-tech. they aren't acurate.

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Scandelous	Sep-01-04 01:13 PM
Member since Jul 19th 2004 445 posts,

#75829, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 19

Originally posted by Ark

Originally posted by DarkOne g-tech.

A wealth of information right from the cigerette lighter. Tasty.

It is normal for even a stock turboed car to puff out a cloud of black smoke in between shifts or at WOT.

Freddy, you sound like youhave everything correct with the SFMU and idle FP. Does it idle so rich that the car takes a minute to clean it self up to idle smooth? Maybe try to mess with the idle adjustment on the SFMU because fluchuataing 6 psi of FP at idle seems alot. Just my .02.

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Ark	Sep-01-04 01:52 PM
Member since Aug 31st 2004 1570 posts,

#75841, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 21

Originally posted by Scandelous

Originally posted by Ark

Originally posted by DarkOne g-tech.

A wealth of information right from the cigerette lighter. Tasty.

It is normal for even a stock turboed car to puff out a cloud of black smoke in between shifts or at WOT.

Really?

Mine doesn't and neither did my last one.

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freddy_00_69	Sep-01-04 02:58 PM
Member since Aug 01st 2002 1119 posts,

#75860, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 22

Thanks scandelous, this thread has turned into a debate about black smoke coming out and not helping me out. End the debate, everyone has there opinion, siueclipse has a 300+whp 420A and is the first to get HRC's new stuff, obviously he is doing something right if they trust his work. Just let this thread go and end. Thanks everyone.

99 RS-T
"New bottom end(8.6:1 w/long rods)"
Turbonetics 60-1/Portfueler/etc!!!!!

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Avenger	Sep-01-04 04:01 PM
Old School 2GNTer 2453 posts,

#75863, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 23

Originally posted by freddy_00_69
Thanks scandelous, this thread has turned into a debate about black smoke coming out and not helping me out. End the debate, everyone has there opinion, siueclipse has a 300+whp 420A and is the first to get HRC's new stuff, obviously he is doing something right if they trust his work. Just let this thread go and end. Thanks everyone.

Err ... the above statement isn't really true. He hasn't really gotten anything from HRC yet and well I have no idea why this board believes his numbers like they are fact. Everyone jumps on someone that posts timeslips that are in the low 15s for anyone NA and 13s for anyone turbo. Raising BS flags and what not. Everyone does the same thing for any NA person saying they have more than 150whp NA or over 300whp turbo. More BS flags all over the fucking place. But ... in this case you guys make exceptions? Here's one piece of info you guys should be aware of which should be enough to blow his claim out of the water ... for James to be able to support 383whp (roughly 450chp) on his 440cc/min injectors at 21psi his fuel pressure at full boost would be around 160PSI (range for varying duty cycles and BSFC, and I was VERY nice with the numbers to get this low value). Yes I know that RC formulas tend to error on the rich side but everyone that knew what they were doing when they setup their SFMU combinations used them for baselines. Now there are other reasons why his numbers just don't add up but I'll let you guys kinda just digest what I've said here first.

So really maybe it's you guys that believe stuff without actually thinking about what you've been just told that just need to take a step back for a minute.

-"Easy Mac"
05 Mazda RX-8 (RR8 #88)
99 Eclipse RS 398whp & 372lb-ft

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freddy_00_69	Sep-01-04 04:50 PM
Member since Aug 01st 2002 1119 posts,

#75866, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 24

I understand what your saying avenger, but calculations are not always right, either. I find it hard to believe that someone can make a car run better by plugging in numbers by calculations rather than driving it and using it on a dyno. I am not trying to start a debate either. I understand your point and listen to alot of 2ngt members that have full knowledge of our motor like you and siueclipse.

99 RS-T
"New bottom end(8.6:1 w/long rods)"
Turbonetics 60-1/Portfueler/etc!!!!!

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Avenger	Sep-01-04 05:17 PM
Old School 2GNTer 2453 posts,

#75868, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 26
Sep-01-04 05:18 PM by Avenger

Originally posted by freddy_00_69
I understand what your saying avenger, but calculations are not always right, either. I find it hard to believe that someone can make a car run better by plugging in numbers by calculations rather than driving it and using it on a dyno. I am not trying to start a debate either. I understand your point and listen to alot of 2ngt members that have full knowledge of our motor like you and siueclipse.

Umm ... I have a problem with your last statement. Please don't ever lump me in with him. I have yet to see him display any knowledge about the motor.

Yes, you do make a good point by dyno tuning BUT I said they are baseline numbers that you start from. You have to start somewhere. You can't just guess at what setup to start off with and roll from there. There has to be a basis for what you will start out at and then tune from there. But in the same sense those numbers aren't ever really so far off that you are not in the vicinity of the real world number. I'm sure that those numbers are rich but by his own admission he tunes fairly rich (11.2:1). So even if it started out at 10:1 through the calculations you're not removing so much that you will cut those numbers by 1/3(you'd have to do at least that much to get some semblance of decent full boost FP). And lets remember this all just FP adjustment tuning. That's all he has. Anyway you cut it +-10% off the FP is still WAY out there in terms of FP. But like I said that wasn't my only piece of reasoning. Take a close look at his setup and his claims ... he provides all the information you need to know to see it doesn't add up.

But anyway I digress. Your original question mentioned that you felt you were running rich. Though the use of a wideband was mentioned no one ever went into detail on WHY it's so much more accurate than a narrow band that you've been using to tune. A NBo2 is 0-1V output o2 sensor. It is generally very cheap and is designed to be accurate right around stoichmetric (14.7:1). It is the reason why it is found on almost every vehicle now. The problem for using this in tuning is that it is VERY inaccurate everywhere else in the AF range. That is to say at rich AFR and lean AFR the slope of the voltage graph is very high. At close to stoichmetric values the slope of the graph is very low. Imagine this is the graph of the o2 Voltage vs AFR. It would look something like this (it's gonna be ugly but it's the best I can do in this text environment).

\
\
\
\
- -
\
\
\
\

The flat area isn't really flat but just a small gradual slope. Anyway I hope you get the jist of it. So essentially it's very difficult to tell if you are at 13:1 or 12:1 on a NBo2 because the voltages that represent each of those AFRs are only seperated by hundreths or thousandths of a volt.

Now on the otherhand a WBo2 is a 5V output. Much more expensive as you can tell by just trying to do some preliminary shopping on them. But being 5V it has a lot more room to be accurate. The slope is constant and therefore the graph of the voltage to AFR is linear. It is accurate everywhere in the AF range and thus provides essential information for tuning.

Now back to you. You say you're running rich but you can only base that on your NBo2 output. The problem is that you just don't know. 13:1 and 12:1 are both "rich" and will light up the green side of your AF gauge. Until you know otherwise you're just guessing.

Oh, about the black smoke thing. Yeah, I had black smoke out of my tail pipe too. Though right now it doesn't. It seems I melted some forged pistons running lean somewhere in the RPM range. Huh, go figure. By the logic in this post I should have been uber rich. Hmmm.

Like I said before ... think about what someone says before taking it a face value. There are a lot of people that sound like they know what they are talking about but just don't have a clue or are just telling you something that someone told them.

-"Easy Mac"
05 Mazda RX-8 (RR8 #88)
99 Eclipse RS 398whp & 372lb-ft

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ner947	Sep-02-04 07:39 AM
Donating 2GNT member 3168 posts,

#75912, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 27

Thura,

I like your ASCII graph

Here's what he was trying to draw, for those who don't know:

1.0 corresponds to 14.7:1. Notice how the X axis scale on the two graphs is completely different.

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Mattchew	Sep-01-04 04:41 PM
Member since Oct 23rd 2003 340 posts,

#75865, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 23
Sep-01-04 04:49 PM by Mattchew

Originally posted by freddy_00_69
Thanks scandelous, this thread has turned into a debate about black smoke coming out and not helping me out. End the debate, everyone has there opinion, siueclipse has a 300+whp 420A and is the first to get HRC's new stuff, obviously he is doing something right if they trust his work. Just let this thread go and end. Thanks everyone.

No, siueclipse told you that he is the first to get HRCs stuff. Yet he tells everyone that his stuff is on back order. He is not trusted by HRC but yet just another customer just like everyone else here. Why would HRC trust someone that does not have any data to give them trust? Seriously man, I'm not trying to bring you down but your getting better advice from the other people in this thread.

*edit* something else to think about. A guy who supposedly makes $93,000 dollars a year doesn't have the money to buy a digital video camera (maybe $300) or a scanner ($50) to give us scans or videos of his dynos? Seems kind of odd to me.

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freddy_00_69	Sep-01-04 06:18 PM
Member since Aug 01st 2002 1119 posts,

#75870, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 25

My bad, didnt mean to compare you two. Well, i will just have to take all the advice from here and work everything out somehow. Thanks, i appreciate the good information.

99 RS-T
"New bottom end(8.6:1 w/long rods)"
Turbonetics 60-1/Portfueler/etc!!!!!

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freddy_00_69	Sep-01-04 06:24 PM
Member since Aug 01st 2002 1119 posts,

#75871, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 25

My bad, didnt mean to compare you two. Well, i will just have to take all the advice from here and work everything out somehow. Thanks, i appreciate the good information.

99 RS-T
"New bottom end(8.6:1 w/long rods)"
Turbonetics 60-1/Portfueler/etc!!!!!

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freddy_00_69	Sep-01-04 06:26 PM
Member since Aug 01st 2002 1119 posts,

#75872, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 25

My bad, didnt mean to compare you two. Well, i will just have to take all the advice from here and work everything out somehow. Thanks, i appreciate the good information.

99 RS-T
"New bottom end(8.6:1 w/long rods)"
Turbonetics 60-1/Portfueler/etc!!!!!

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Mattchew	Sep-01-04 07:04 PM
Member since Oct 23rd 2003 340 posts,

#75875, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 30

Originally posted by freddy_00_69
My bad, didnt mean to compare you two. Well, i will just have to take all the advice from here and work everything out somehow. Thanks, i appreciate the good information.

Not chewing your butt man, I'm just telling you to be careful who you take advice from. Personally I would look at people who have posted dyno sheets and or timeslips because that's how you are actually going to see setups that will get you where you want to be. I'm not going to go off on an siueclipse tangent but I'm sure you see the fact that he has no documentation for you to look at.

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Ducking_Fumbass	Sep-01-04 07:29 PM
Member since Aug 30th 2004 1147 posts,

#75876, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 31

I wasn't trying to be a prick to you, I was simply point out that Mr. Shitsmear was giving you information that was slightly "suboptimal." If you have decent cams for a turbocharged application, and you have a black cloud following you, you're either driving a 4G63, or you are too rich. Tune it properly so that you don't blow a load of cash by breaking something.

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Scandelous	Sep-02-04 03:42 AM
Member since Jul 19th 2004 445 posts,

#75883, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 32

Well to comment on some of the above posts I will say this; I believe that this post is meant to help a fellow 2gnt'er on helping him with his running rich problem not bashing others on there dyno and parts credibility. I think 5 or 6 of the total posts on here are helpful to him, the others are just bullshit. Sorry guys.

On the other hand, I have owned a turbo'd GSR hatch that was dyno properly and with a wideband o2 sensor to have someone at a local reputable shop here in Tampa tune my V-AFC. After everything was properly tuned like most turbo'd cars, 4G63 or not, it would puff a bit of BLACK smoke out in between WOT shifts. Like I said before, If you're not fouling out plugs and its not smoking all the time, just a puff here and there that you are tuned a little rich which is perfectly alright.

Ark, if you have nothing to say thats helpful, PLEASE stay out of the post.

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widebodied	Sep-02-04 04:21 AM
Member since Oct 22nd 2002 2257 posts,

#75891, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 33

Originally posted by Scandelous
Well to comment on some of the above posts I will say this; I believe that this post is meant to help a fellow 2gnt'er on helping him with his running rich problem not bashing others on there dyno and parts credibility. I think 5 or 6 of the total posts on here are helpful to him, the others are just bullshit. Sorry guys. On the other hand, I have owned a turbo'd GSR hatch that was dyno properly and with a wideband o2 sensor to have someone at a local reputable shop here in Tampa tune my V-AFC. After everything was properly tuned like most turbo'd cars, 4G63 or not, it would puff a bit of BLACK smoke out in between WOT shifts. Like I said before, If you're not fouling out plugs and its not smoking all the time, just a puff here and there that you are tuned a little rich which is perfectly alright. Ark, if you have nothing to say thats helpful, PLEASE stay out of the post.

stfu u fucking noob!

if your looking for perfectly tuned car, most reputable shops will tune your car with a wideband, no need to buy one, alot of them supply them for tuning purposes.

DWAYNE H
1996 eclipse
under construction widebody eclipse, targa top, 19inch rollers, big brakes, 10 point custom cage, frank 2.4 hrc s20g turbo, custom marble paint job

2000 Yamaha R-1, 165rwhp 117 ftlbs tq

ALMOST THERE...... MUWHAHAHAHAHAHA

Originally posted by Thunderous_Talon
a man could build a thousand bridges, and suck one cock. he'll forever be known as a cocksucker.

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Scandelous	Sep-03-04 11:56 AM
Member since Jul 19th 2004 445 posts,

#75979, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 34

Originally posted by widebodied

Originally posted by Scandelous Well to comment on some of the above posts I will say this; I believe that this post is meant to help a fellow 2gnt'er on helping him with his running rich problem not bashing others on there dyno and parts credibility. I think 5 or 6 of the total posts on here are helpful to him, the others are just bullshit. Sorry guys. On the other hand, I have owned a turbo'd GSR hatch that was dyno properly and with a wideband o2 sensor to have someone at a local reputable shop here in Tampa tune my V-AFC. After everything was properly tuned like most turbo'd cars, 4G63 or not, it would puff a bit of BLACK smoke out in between WOT shifts. Like I said before, If you're not fouling out plugs and its not smoking all the time, just a puff here and there that you are tuned a little rich which is perfectly alright. Ark, if you have nothing to say thats helpful, PLEASE stay out of the post.

stfu u fucking noob! if your looking for perfectly tuned car, most reputable shops will tune your car with a wideband, no need to buy one, alot of them supply them for tuning purposes. DWAYNE H 1996 eclipse under construction widebody eclipse, targa top, 19inch rollers, big brakes, 10 point custom cage, frank 2.4 hrc s20g turbo, custom marble paint job

2000 Yamaha R-1, 165rwhp 117 ftlbs tq

ALMOST THERE...... MUWHAHAHAHAHAHA

Originally posted by Thunderous_Talon a man could build a thousand bridges, and suck one cock. he'll forever be known as a cocksucker.

stfu NOOB? Where did I post that I bought a wide band o2? Pull your head out of your ass and re-read my post.

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Mattchew	Sep-02-04 04:31 AM
Member since Oct 23rd 2003 340 posts,

#75892, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 33

Originally posted by Scandelous
Well to comment on some of the above posts I will say this; I believe that this post is meant to help a fellow 2gnt'er on helping him with his running rich problem not bashing others on there dyno and parts credibility. I think 5 or 6 of the total posts on here are helpful to him, the others are just bullshit. Sorry guys. On the other hand, I have owned a turbo'd GSR hatch that was dyno properly and with a wideband o2 sensor to have someone at a local reputable shop here in Tampa tune my V-AFC. After everything was properly tuned like most turbo'd cars, 4G63 or not, it would puff a bit of BLACK smoke out in between WOT shifts. Like I said before, If you're not fouling out plugs and its not smoking all the time, just a puff here and there that you are tuned a little rich which is perfectly alright. Ark, if you have nothing to say thats helpful, PLEASE stay out of the post.

The point Ark and several others are making is you should not take technical advice from someone who lies about thier tuning abilities. You would not invest your money in a company says they are doing well but does not give you a portfolio would you?

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MrSlick	Sep-03-04 02:35 PM
Member since Jul 22nd 2002 1120 posts,

#75986, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 35

ner: You accidently posted an incorrect picture... the wideband pic you posted was the current pump slope... not the wideband voltage out put slope... here's the output of the techedge.com.au unit, this is the type of pic ner meant to show:

But back to the topic at hand:

The first thing you have to bear in mind is that there are different ways of tunning your fuel system:

1.) Some (most) people here are running rising rate fuel pressure regulators, as Avenger rightly points out with a rrfpr you CAN be running rich at some points and lean at others... and still be putting out black smoke at times... does not mean you are safelly rich, and does not mean you are lean... without a true wideband you cannot be sure!
2.) Others here are running programable fuel systems of one kind or another, with these systems you CAN tune your car to be safelly rich... but again this does not mean you will or will not emmit black smoke... CAMS and other things have a lot to do with this... Boost level and airflow for instance... think about it, the more air moving through the system, the more there is a chance some fuel could go right out the exhaust...

Now one thing that is true is that it's not good to be throwing fuel out the exhaust when you are not on boost or when you are at idle... this is usually a sign of being too rich, but again only at that point in time...

So to sum this up, if you dont have access to a wideband, then play it safe on both the boost levels and on the fuel side... run rich if you can until you can get a wideband... And don't trust that narrow band!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Megasquirt powered 420A
Custom turbo system

http://www.ms-custom.com

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MrSlick	Sep-03-04 02:37 PM
Member since Jul 22nd 2002 1120 posts,

#75987, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 38

Here's a very good link explaining wideband vs. narrowband:

http://techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/wblambda.htm

Time for a drink... I'm in the educational mood tonight!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Megasquirt powered 420A
Custom turbo system

http://www.ms-custom.com

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turbo8u	Sep-03-04 02:43 PM
Member since Jun 15th 2003 10552 posts,

#75992, "RE: Running rich, cannot figure out problem!"
In response to Reply # 38

Originally posted by MrSlick
So to sum this up, if you dont have access to a wideband, then play it safe on both the boost levels and on the fuel side... run rich if you can until you can get a wideband... And don't trust that narrow band!

this is the only advice worth taking in this thread, in my honest opinion.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

96 Black ESi
91 Red TSI AWD (RIP)
02 WRX

"turnin wrenches for nine hours in the pouring rain, just to get the beast up and running again"

Aerospace Certified TIG welder for Precision Castparts in Portland, OR.

JoshSpair.com

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