Welcome to the 2GNT Forum! Interested In Advertising with 2GNT?
Home | Site Background| Info&Specs| Mods & Tech Info | CAPS | Part Reviews | Donate | 2GNT Stickers |
Search Printer-friendly copy 2 Users in Chat
Top 2GNT Technical Turbo/Nitrous Tech topic #32994
View in linear mode

Subject: "Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link" Previous topic | Next topic
SemperboostOct-18-02 03:31 PM
Old School 2GNTer
1072 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#32994, "Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"


          

Check this out..my fren with a DRAG LS sent me this. Think it could work for us?

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=310021

Alvin

96 RST

Star Stage I turbo kit /Starion I/C w/ 2" chrome piping / GReddy Type-S BOV / Missing Link / Custom APEXi- GReddy 2.5" exhaust / 55mm ARD TB/ Nology wires / APEXi EL mech boost gauge / Autometer A/F gauge / Southland Dual Friction clutch / B&M short shifter / Energy Suspension shifter bushings / 16" GSX Rims / Front/ Rear camberkits / Eibach Prokits / Tokico Blues/ Front Upper, Rear Lower strut bars / Rear GST sway bar
GSX Dual Piston Calipers, X-drilled rotors /


Alvin

http://www.cardomain.com/id/96rst

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Replies to this topic
RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, TeamXtremeRS, Oct-19-02 05:52 AM, #1
RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, Erik, Oct-19-02 11:00 AM, #2
      RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, Collente, Oct-19-02 04:17 PM, #3
RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, TeamXtremeRS, Oct-20-02 01:43 AM, #4
RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, Collente, Oct-20-02 02:59 AM, #5
      RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, Erik, Oct-20-02 03:07 AM, #6
           RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, RxR_Eclipse, Oct-20-02 04:34 AM, #7
                RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, Collente, Oct-20-02 04:56 AM, #8
                     RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, Collente, Oct-20-02 11:41 PM, #9
                          RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, Erik, Oct-21-02 03:12 AM, #10
                               RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, Collente, Oct-21-02 03:53 AM, #11
                                    RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, randy, Oct-21-02 04:14 AM, #12
                                         RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, ModeratorEvuLFleA, Oct-21-02 04:16 AM, #13
                                              RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, Collente, Oct-21-02 07:14 AM, #14
                                                   RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, ModeratorEvuLFleA, Oct-21-02 07:17 AM, #15
RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, TeamXtremeRS, Oct-21-02 09:35 AM, #16
RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, ModeratorEvuLFleA, Oct-21-02 10:12 AM, #17
      RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, TeamXtremeRS, Oct-21-02 10:41 AM, #18
           RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, TeamMetalJim, Oct-21-02 10:55 AM, #19
           RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, ModeratorEvuLFleA, Oct-21-02 10:57 AM, #20
                RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, TeamXtremeRS, Oct-21-02 11:22 AM, #21
                     RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, ModeratorEvuLFleA, Oct-21-02 11:28 AM, #22
                          RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, TeamXtremeRS, Oct-21-02 11:34 AM, #23
                               RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, ModeratorEvuLFleA, Oct-21-02 12:09 PM, #25
RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, TeamXtremeRS, Oct-21-02 11:52 AM, #24
RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, ModeratorEvuLFleA, Oct-21-02 12:16 PM, #26
      RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, Erik, Oct-21-02 12:46 PM, #27
      RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, ModeratorEvuLFleA, Oct-21-02 12:53 PM, #29
           RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, Erik, Oct-21-02 01:17 PM, #30
                RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, ModeratorEvuLFleA, Oct-21-02 01:21 PM, #31
                RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, Erik, Oct-21-02 01:26 PM, #33
                     RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, TeamXtremeRS, Oct-21-02 01:32 PM, #34
                RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, TeamXtremeRS, Oct-21-02 01:26 PM, #32
      RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, TeamXtremeRS, Oct-21-02 12:47 PM, #28
           RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, Erik, Oct-21-02 01:52 PM, #35
           RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, ModeratorEvuLFleA, Oct-21-02 02:01 PM, #36
RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, TeamXtremeRS, Oct-21-02 02:08 PM, #37
RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, Collente, Oct-21-02 03:34 PM, #38
      RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, Matt_95tgs, Oct-21-02 04:11 PM, #39
           RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, Collente, Oct-21-02 11:21 PM, #40
RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, TeamXtremeRS, Oct-21-02 11:41 PM, #41
RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, Collente, Oct-22-02 12:09 AM, #42
      RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, Matt_95tgs, Oct-22-02 02:16 AM, #43
           RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, Kirby, Oct-22-02 02:40 AM, #44
           RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, Collente, Oct-22-02 02:55 AM, #45
                RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, Matt_95tgs, Oct-22-02 12:08 PM, #47
RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, WheatKing, Oct-22-02 03:56 AM, #46
RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link, Collente, Oct-24-02 02:55 AM, #48
      Where everyone go?, Jasvb TS2K2, Oct-25-02 03:24 AM, #49

TeamXtremeRSOct-19-02 05:52 AM
Member since May 20th 2003
6329 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#32995, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Hmmm very interesting indeed. I think it could actually work, but a few questions arize. This unit is basically a glorified SAFC. It works on the same principle, by altering the MAP voltage signal under boost/ daily driving. My questions are this. Since 96+ cars's map's freak out under boost, will this still work for us? Maybe i'm just not reading it right. From what i gather, it looks like this unit can alter/control much larger injetor duty cyles. It looks like it can cut down on the duty cycle enough to run very large injectors under daily driving/cruising. Using the STOCK fuel pressure, and pump. You get more fuel under boost by the unit increasing the duty cycle up to the injector's 80% max flow rating, good for higher boost. I'd like to hear some more about this unit myself, as it *could* be a excellent alternative to the SAFC and the 8 injector setup and EIC.


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)

My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
ErikOct-19-02 11:00 AM
Donating 2GNT member
1536 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#32996, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 1


          

Got my attention. I think it would work, b/c a system that has a MAP sensor in it( HONDA and US) needs to "tricked" when boost comes. I'm also kinda hesitant to say "yea this would work" b/c how do we know what MAP voltages is this thing set up for? Hopefully an all high and mighty electronics guru can explain this. (ahhem.. Corbin)

Shit is all apart. Typical...

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
CollenteOct-19-02 04:17 PM
Member since Sep 20th 2002
2447 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#32997, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 2


          

I was checking to see the cost… got this,
"Works with other factory NA engines and factory boosted engines with a MAP sensor"

If I understand this correctly, we will not longer need a fcd/missink link, or a FPR. I would imagine that you would still need a high-flow pump to take care of the higher fuel delivery. This would definitely kick some major ass...

Nick
97RS (custom turbo)

Nick
97RS

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

TeamXtremeRSOct-20-02 01:43 AM
Member since May 20th 2003
6329 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#32998, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 0


          

http://www.diabloautosports.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=64&products_id=2581

Thats the link on the site to buy it from, currently on a 2 week backorder.. The more i think about this, i'm still confused on how this is going to give more/less fuel with boosted conditions. It has 4 rpm adjustments on it, for up to -55% correction, but how does this unit give more fuel under boost, if it has a built in map limiter, like the Vc2 ect... I believe at WOT N/A, we are at 80% duty cycle on stock ECU prgramming,right?. I guess my question is how does this control the larger injector's duty cycle under boost?


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)

My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
CollenteOct-20-02 02:59 AM
Member since Sep 20th 2002
2447 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#32999, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 4


          

Well guys, I did something I thought that I would never do... I joined a Honda post. I guess the creator of the SMC is in their answering peoples questions about the product. I sent a reply on 2gnt's behalf asking the questions that XtremeRS brought up. I'll keep you posted.

Nick
97RS

Nick
97RS

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
ErikOct-20-02 03:07 AM
Donating 2GNT member
1536 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33000, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 5


          

Well, "Shame on you" and "Good Job" all at once. I hope he'll come over here and speak up for his product, since alot of custom and upgrading turbo guys would want to consider this option, since it "could" make the whole system a little cheaper and tuner friendly.

Shit is all apart. Typical...

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

            
RxR_EclipseOct-20-02 04:34 AM
Old School 2GNTer
1792 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33001, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 6


          

I am also interested in this one....you would need some larger injectors and a fuel pump ....then let it do the rest?? This would make life a lot easier for even HRC and STAR...Can you imagine getting a set of injectors with your HRC or Starr kit instead of a FPR...

Where is this honda board?? I have a few q's for this guy..

Maybe we should get him to come over to this board..also it would be helpful to talk to some people who are using this already...

I am also interested in the 4g63 injector mod they talked about...can the 4g63 injectors even fit.....??? And if so then why arent we using them with that mod....they are hella cheap on dsmtrader.

Kevin
The old:


The new:

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                
CollenteOct-20-02 04:56 AM
Member since Sep 20th 2002
2447 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33002, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 7


          

This *could* solve so many of our problems, especially us with the POS craptech fmu and fuel regulation issues. And all of the unnecessary plumbing that goes with them. The site for the post is http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=310021. This seams like the best route to go, that is if it works as noted. It would solve like 90% of our fuel problems and cut lots of cost!
Nick

Nick
97RS

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                    
CollenteOct-20-02 11:41 PM
Member since Sep 20th 2002
2447 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33003, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 8


          

You have a bunch of us over a 2gnt.com very interested in your product, very.
If everything works as told then there are no problems, but we do have a few questions. We're still confused on how this is going to give more/less fuel with boosted conditions.



The SMC works with both ECU setups that are for NA, or boost applications that use a MAP sensor. On an NA setup, you would normally install injectors twice the size of your stock injectors. For example, a stock civic has 240cc injectors. If you want to run 10psi, you would install the SMC plus 450cc injectors. You would then use the SMC to trim any excess fuel with the large injectors, but still supply enough during boost. On typical Honda setups, the trim level will range anywhere from -30% to -45% in any particular rev range. The SMC essential delivers the proper amount of fuel during boosted conditions with the stock ECU!


It has 4 rpm
adjustments on it, for up to -55% correction, but how does this unit give more fuel under boost, if it has a built in map limiter, like the Vc2 ect...I guess our question is how does this control the larger injector's duty cycle under boost?




The map limiter can be disabled for cars that came with a turbo, i.e. turbo eclipse. Since you have an eclipse RS, I believe you can't use the SMC since your setup involves a MAF sensor. The SMC only caters to MAP sensor equipped vehicles, such as the turbo eclipse.


Best Regards,
EG



I am emailing him back letting him know that our cars use the map senson and not a maf sensor...
Honda Nazi's

Nick
97RS

Nick
97RS

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                        
ErikOct-21-02 03:12 AM
Donating 2GNT member
1536 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33004, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 9


          

Hey good work, try to get him over here onto this board so we can fire off some questions. He'd have at least one customer (me) if he can get this to be just as effective as a SAFC and maybe a little more tuner friendly.

Shit is all apart. Typical...

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                            
CollenteOct-21-02 03:53 AM
Member since Sep 20th 2002
2447 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33005, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 10


          

I just emailed him back. It looks like im going to try it. I'll let you all know how it works. I requested him to come on, so he will probibaly be posting soon.

Nick
97RS

Got this from their post:
Whelp, it's finally done. I just got back from the gas station, and boy am I impressed.
I am going from the infamous FMU setup to this DSM 450cc/SMC setup. I had originally planned to go DSM 450cc/SAFC, but $$$ held that idea down.

First off, I started w/ the injectors. I ripped my old ones out, and man were they nasty. Stuck in the 450's and got ready to press... I didn't waste my time with the dremel, it's time to tighten. Got all 4 in and clipped. Seated them, and went away at the 10mm nuts. Got one side on, and went for the other. Got it on, and went for the middle...Tighter, tighter, tighter, BAM....That's a pretty nice stud I have in my hand now. NOTE TO SELF-Do not overtorque.

So I'm down to 2 studs/nuts holding my injectors in. It's okay though.

Lets move on to the SMC install. Piece of cake. I couldn't get the wiring diagram for the PG7 in time, so I tapped in to the MAP sensor right on the firewall. A couple cm's of shrink wrap and electrical tape later, and I'm set. Gator clipped the white wire to my tach wire coming off my dizzy...Mistake...I'll cover that in a minute. Power to the black/yellow on the ECU, and grounded it. Green left hangin.

Everything done, and I go to start her... I get her going, but she's dyin quick. Quick check of the ECU, and I'm throwing code 15..Hrmmm, wtf is that going off for? No clue, so I reset the ECU, and adjust the idle to ~-30%. Start her up, and give her gas... No CEL, but she's still chokin. My tach is going crazy at this point and I realize that the SMC can't read which RPM range I'm in so it's dumping way too much fuel, way to little, way too much, way to little..etc.

I take the white wire off the dizzy tap, and tap it in to my MSD 6A. Start her up, and smooth as a babies bottom. Idles perfectly, and not very choppy. Head out my yard, and take it easy for a few mins. Vac/Boost transition is SMOOTH. Screw check valves/FMU, I'll never go back.

I opened her up on the way to the gas station.. Rich the entire way, no leaning whatsoever, even at 7-8psi in 3rd. I'll adjust that down a little bit in a while, but for now I'm really happy. I should have replaced the orings that came on my injectors, cuz one is leaking a little bit giving a couple of drops on my nice warm intake mani runners.

This thing is awesome. I am very impressed so far, and after a few hours of tuning it's going to be great. Tuning is incredibly easy. It can be done w/ the car running, and is a simple turn of a knob and hitting the program button. Vac/Boost transition is smooth, and it keeps the 450cc's in check. W/ the FMU, I would drop off @ ~5500. I would go WAY too rich, and could find deposits on my muffler of gas blowing out the back; NOT NOW. It pulls until I shift (Usually ~6750 or 7k), and doesn't let off whatsoever.

Zip, you are the man. Thank you for offering this product in replacement of the SAFC. It may not have a pretty face and cool buttons, but this product gets the job done; and at a price everyone can afford.

SMC=

jB





_______

88 ZC Civic HB.
Greddy TD04H @ .53bar
ACT 6 puck/Fidanza 9lb
MSD 6A

FS: Bunches o' stuff
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=298968

FS: Turbo Stuff (FMIC, BOV, FMU)
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=300388

"you bastard dont make me start speaking ESPAÑOL notice the tilda over the N i'll whoop some ass." -falconGSR...Wasted

*it would be bad ass if we could get this to work

Any opinions?

Nick
97RS

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                                
randyOct-21-02 04:14 AM
Old School 2GNTer
662 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33006, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 11


          

How much is this smc? If it work out, he got one customer.

96 RST: Star Performance stag
05 scion xb: bolt ons
92 nissan 240sx
07 toyota sienna

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                                    
ModeratorEvuLFleAOct-21-02 04:16 AM
Old School 2GNTer
9791 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33007, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 12




          

http://www.diabloautosports.com/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=64&products_id=2581

$109

------------------------------------------------
98 ESi
95 GS

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                                        
CollenteOct-21-02 07:14 AM
Member since Sep 20th 2002
2447 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33008, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 13


          

Zip is hookin me up, He is going to send me one right away. I will install it soon, and let you all know how it works.

Nick
97RS

Nick
97RS

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                                            
ModeratorEvuLFleAOct-21-02 07:17 AM
Old School 2GNTer
9791 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33009, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 14




          

How much boost are you running. Share your setup so we can compare. I'm still working on my fuel so this might be benifitial.

------------------------------------------------
98 ESi
95 GS

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

TeamXtremeRSOct-21-02 09:35 AM
Member since May 20th 2003
6329 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33010, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Someone PLEASE explain how this controlls fuel under boost, in open loop! Our stock ecu's controll WOT fuel delivery by pre-programed injector duty cycles for the rpm band, and engine load. We adjust fuel pressures now to get more or less fuel under boost at different duty cycles. I still dont see how the SMC will know how much fuel to add(duty cycle) for boosted conditions properly, since the ecu isnt reading off of the o2 sensor at WOT to adjust A/F ratio (duty cycle). Maybe i'm just not gettin something...where are the guru's at


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)

My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
ModeratorEvuLFleAOct-21-02 10:12 AM
Old School 2GNTer
9791 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33011, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 16




          

It still reads off the map sensor. The map sensor shows positive pressure to the SMC but doesn't show any positive pressure to the ecu.

------------------------------------------------
98 ESi
95 GS

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
TeamXtremeRSOct-21-02 10:41 AM
Member since May 20th 2003
6329 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33012, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 17


          

>It still reads off the map sensor. The map sensor shows
>positive pressure to the SMC but doesn't show any positive
>pressure to the ecu.

Right, i get that, but if the SMC doesnt show positive pressure to the ecu, then how does the ecu control duty cycle under boost? The ecu still thinks its at 0 psi. The MAP is whats tells the ecu to increase/decrease the injector duty cycle, along with the TPS, under open loop conditions. My question is that when we are cruising at 4000 rpms on the higway, it gives a certain duty cycle. Now how will it know to increase the duty cycle at 4000 rpms under boost? We need much more fuel under boost at that rpm than under that rpm with vacum driving.


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)

My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

            
TeamMetalJimOct-21-02 10:55 AM
Donating 2GNT member
2135 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33013, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 18




          

Thats what your S-FMU is for.


ride__________95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
power________Gude cams : AFX UDP : ram air : test pipe : GST catback
suspention___BOMZ F/R upper strut bars : ES inserts
sound________Kenwood KDC 5000 : Audiovox 8" sub toob - no sub amp(damnit!)
shizzle_______AutoCommand remote start : dual air horns
incomming___Hurricane F/R lower strut ties : Jeep TB : Field SFC Hyper-R


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
14.76 @ 94.72mph
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

            
ModeratorEvuLFleAOct-21-02 10:57 AM
Old School 2GNTer
9791 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33014, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 18




          

We must not be understanding each other...
How will it know its in boost? Even though the ecu doesn't read any positive pressure off the map the map is still showing positive pressure to the smc. The map sensor will go up and up as boost increases which causes the smc to change duty cycle but at the same time not showing any positive pressure to the ecu.

I don't even know if we are talking about the same thing anymore.

------------------------------------------------
98 ESi
95 GS

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                
TeamXtremeRSOct-21-02 11:22 AM
Member since May 20th 2003
6329 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33015, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 20


          

Hehe..I dont know anymore The more I try and disect this, the more i get confused on how this is supposed to work..Let me try and explain my thoughts...



>We must not be understanding each other...
>How will it know its in boost? Even though the ecu doesn't
>read any positive pressure off the map the map is still
>showing positive pressure to the smc. The map sensor will go
>up and up as boost increases which causes the smc to change
>duty cycle but at the same time not showing any positive
>pressure to the ecu.


From what i know, someone please correct me if i'm wrong, that injector duty cycle( the "on" time that the injector actually sprays fuel), is mainly controlled by the MAP sensor voltage. The more air that the map sees, the longer the injector duty cycle to acompany the the extra air, for proper A/F mixture. Now if the SMC is clamping map voltage, to make the ecu think there is only 0 psi, then how does the SMC increase or decrease the duty cycle? In closed loop, i can see how it can control larger injectors to trick the ecu to lessen duty cycles, just like the SAFC. The SAFC just interpretes the map voltage,and increases or decreases it to change the stock programed duty cycle. Now, at WOT, or open loop, the ecu goes into a preprogramed fuel map, a preprogramed duty cycle that corresponds with engine rpm. Higher rpm means a greater duty cycle, because higher rpm means that more air is getting in there, and needs more fuel. With me? If our map is controlling duty cycle, then how does the SMC decrease/increase duty cycle? The map voltage is clamped at 4.5 or so volts automatically...maybe i'm looking too much into it...I just want to understand how this thing works...
How will the SMC give the proper A/F mix under boost, at different boost levels, not just one set boost pressure..



13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)

My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                    
ModeratorEvuLFleAOct-21-02 11:28 AM
Old School 2GNTer
9791 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33016, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 21




          

Instead of thinking the map is clamped at 4.7 think of it like the ECU is clamped at WOT at 4.7 while the map continues reading over 0psi and sends that info to the smc.

------------------------------------------------
98 ESi
95 GS

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                        
TeamXtremeRSOct-21-02 11:34 AM
Member since May 20th 2003
6329 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33017, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 22


          

>Instead of thinking the map is clamped at 4.7 think of it
>like the ECU is clamped at WOT at 4.7 while the map
>continues reading over 0psi and sends that info to the smc.

So how is the SMC controlling duty cycle? I get that the map voltage will increase over 4.5 volts going into boost, but how does it make the ECU controll the duty cycle under boost? How is it going to know if we are running 5 psi, or 15 psi?


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)

My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                            
ModeratorEvuLFleAOct-21-02 12:09 PM
Old School 2GNTer
9791 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33018, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 23




          

Hmmmm now I'm thinking too. Here's a shot.

Well if you had 40lb injectors in a stock 2gnt you will run pig rich. Running 40lbs injectors at 80% is way overkill. The only way to lower the fuel being dumped in is to lower the duty cycle. To lower the duty cycle the map voltage will have to be decreased right? Now to run those injectors on a stock 2gnt you would have it all probably at -55%. If you had stock injectors you would run at 0%. See where I'm going?

I doubt it. Message me. We can argue on there maybe. I'm still learning so don't chop my head off anybody. I'm trying



------------------------------------------------
98 ESi
95 GS

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

TeamXtremeRSOct-21-02 11:52 AM
Member since May 20th 2003
6329 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33019, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Ok, i think i figured it out. The SMC will correct all map values all the time. The only time it will tell the ECU that the MAP voltage is at 4.5 volts is at your max boost pressure. You use the adjustment screws to fine tune the duty cycle( MAP voltage). So stock non turboed, the map voltage is at 4.5 volts at WOT (0psi). Now with the SMC on, and running larger injects, the 0 psi map voltage may be only 2.5 volts going to the ECU, so the euc shortens the duty cycle to make proper A/F. Now when we go under boost, the map voltage increases over the stock 4.5 volts at 0+ psi on up, then the SMC will max out the output map voltage at whatever your max boost is, to which you adjust it on the SMC, using the 4 adjustment screws. So lets say we are running 10 psi. At 0 psi, the map gives the SMC a voltage of 4.5 volts, the SMC corrects this to lets say 2.5 volts to make the proper mixture. Then when under boost, the map goes above 4.5 volts, and then the SMC will increase the output voltage going to the ECU to its max of 4.5 volts under max boost. This all would work assuming our map's can increase voltage above 4.5 volts in a linear fashion. I've heard we have 1 bar map sensors, which equals to around 14-15 psi.


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)

My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
ModeratorEvuLFleAOct-21-02 12:16 PM
Old School 2GNTer
9791 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33020, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 24




          

Yes I think that is what I am trying to say. Easier to say than type.

If the limiter is 4.5v and that will run 80% duty cycle on your injectors you can than trim the excess fuel by selecting a lower % of fuel to be injected based on how much fuel 80% duty cycle from the injectors actualy is and how much fuel you need.

You run 10 psi you trim maybe 20% of the fuel from the injectors (depending on how big you went) but if you ran 2 psi you would need to trim (or lower map voltages) like 40%.

I make no sense I am sorry. I hope newbies read this and think I am making sense. Bleh.

------------------------------------------------
98 ESi
95 GS

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
ErikOct-21-02 12:46 PM
Donating 2GNT member
1536 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33021, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 26


          

Man I leave for a few hours and now this thread has blown up. The way you guys are talking it seems to make sense to me. I was a little confused like ExtremeRS, but I think I got it now. I'm very interested to see if this really does work ike everyone says. Collente-- please share your set-up and what you are boosting.

Shit is all apart. Typical...

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

            
ModeratorEvuLFleAOct-21-02 12:53 PM
Old School 2GNTer
9791 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33022, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 27




          

>Man I leave for a few hours and now this thread has blown
>up. The way you guys are talking it seems to make sense to
>me. I was a little confused like ExtremeRS, but I think I
>got it now. I'm very interested to see if this really does
>work ike everyone says. Collente-- please share your set-up
>and what you are boosting.

Are you saying I wasn't confused LOL. I like these kind of discussions. Hopefully xtremers will come back with a few more ideas/questions.

OT: Eric, I sent your FP gauge.

------------------------------------------------
98 ESi
95 GS

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                
ErikOct-21-02 01:17 PM
Donating 2GNT member
1536 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33023, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 29


          

OK I think I might have a question, now that you mention the FP gauge. If I use my stock injectors (which I'm on now) how will altering my MAP signal push my FP enough run my stockers close to their max duty cycle? I have 30 lbs waiting in my garage and I can understand that the duty cyce is easier to cut down and since it's a bigger injector the FP doesn't have to realy get higher than stock reg. can handle under boost.

Shit is all apart. Typical...

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                    
ModeratorEvuLFleAOct-21-02 01:21 PM
Old School 2GNTer
9791 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33024, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 30




          

>OK I think I might have a question, now that you mention the
>FP gauge. If I use my stock injectors (which I'm on now)
>how will altering my MAP signal push my FP enough run my
>stockers close to their max duty cycle? I have 30 lbs
>waiting in my garage and I can understand that the duty cyce
>is easier to cut down and since it's a bigger injector the
>FP doesn't have to realy get higher than stock reg. can
>handle under boost.

This CAN'T raise fuel pressurewith this, only trim. You would have to put the SMC on 0 0 0 0 to run exactly what the ECU would.

------------------------------------------------
98 ESi
95 GS

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                        
ErikOct-21-02 01:26 PM
Donating 2GNT member
1536 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33025, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 31


          

alrighty now I'm confused. How can you get rid of the FMU or S-FMU (whatever you're using) and still have enough fuel under boost by altering MAP? Maybe I'm retarded(good chance, just not proven yet) but doesn't the S-AFC alter MAP to control fuel trims? I know of some guys here that run a S-AFC and 30 lbs and the FMU. I would assume that if you got rid of the FMU, you would not be able to control stock injectors enough to provide enough fuel under boost.

Shit is all apart. Typical...

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                            
TeamXtremeRSOct-21-02 01:32 PM
Member since May 20th 2003
6329 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33026, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 33


          

>alrighty now I'm confused. How can you get rid of the FMU or
>S-FMU (whatever you're using) and still have enough fuel
>under boost by altering MAP? Maybe I'm retarded(good
>chance, just not proven yet) but doesn't the S-AFC alter MAP
>to control fuel trims? I know of some guys here that run a
>S-AFC and 30 lbs and the FMU. I would assume that if you got
>rid of the FMU, you would not be able to control stock
>injectors enough to provide enough fuel under boost.


Exactly. You cant use any map altering device with stock injects. When you run larger injects, you will get a lot more fuel at each duty cycle percentage over the stock injectors. Eg.. with stock injects at 80% duty cycle, lets say you have 235cc's of fuel flow. With 550cc injects at 80% duty cycle, you have 550cc's of fuel flow. The SMC is basically "expanding" the map sensor voltages to make the ecu run its max duty cycle of 80% or so, at max boost, not at 0 psi. With 440 cc injects, at 0 psi, the SMC will tell the ECU to run them at 40% duty cycle (example only). At 10 psi, the SMC will tell the ECU to run them at 80% duty cycle


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)

My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                    
TeamXtremeRSOct-21-02 01:26 PM
Member since May 20th 2003
6329 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33027, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 30


          

>OK I think I might have a question, now that you mention the
>FP gauge. If I use my stock injectors (which I'm on now)
>how will altering my MAP signal push my FP enough run my
>stockers close to their max duty cycle? I have 30 lbs
>waiting in my garage and I can understand that the duty cyce
>is easier to cut down and since it's a bigger injector the
>FP doesn't have to realy get higher than stock reg. can
>handle under boost.

I'm not positve what you are trying to say, but here is shot. If you are using stock injectors, you dont want to alter the MAP readings at all. We get more fuel under boost with stock injectors by this: When we go into boost (0+ psi), the ecu sees a map voltage of around 4.5 volts( it wont go any higher if you have a Missing link, or VC1/2). The ECU gets close to around 80% injector duty cycle. Duty cycle stays there as boost increases, but we get more fuel by upping the fuel pressure at the injectors. More fuel pressure equals more fuel spraying from the injector. Make sense? Or are you asking something different?


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)

My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
TeamXtremeRSOct-21-02 12:47 PM
Member since May 20th 2003
6329 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33028, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 26


          

hehe..yeah i know what you are saying I still think this can be bad though. It will mess around with igniton timing just like the SAFC does. Thats not good for high boost, although, it seems like you can only run no more than 15 psi with the SMC anyway..IMO, its still better to run a rising rate FPR under boost conditions..It is more expensive, but you can also run more boost too..I'm sure once people get to 15 psi, they will want more You would really need to use a wide band o2 and a dyno to tune that well too, i think..


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)

My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

            
ErikOct-21-02 01:52 PM
Donating 2GNT member
1536 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33029, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 28


          

I think I answered my own question now that you put it that way. I'm on stock internals so 15 psi is still awhile away. I think this would be nice to just put in the 30 lbs in, and not have to worry about high EGT's for a price that I can almost get for my FMU alone. I agree that it won't be for higher boost people, but 15 psi is no joke and not too many people here run that kind of boost daily. I'm not getting my hopes up though, this could be too good to be true. I'll wait until somebody can prove it's capabilities on a 2gnt.

Shit is all apart. Typical...

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

            
ModeratorEvuLFleAOct-21-02 02:01 PM
Old School 2GNTer
9791 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33030, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 28




          

You would think this would be a cheap upgrade for N/A people here though too... This would allow them to turn down the fuel a little. For $110 I'm sure you could find some power by leaning things out.

You would definately not be able to use this with stock injectors on a turbo 2gnt.


------------------------------------------------
98 ESi
95 GS

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

TeamXtremeRSOct-21-02 02:08 PM
Member since May 20th 2003
6329 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33031, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Here is another explanation to clarify. I'll try and make it understandable

Lets see how this works an a stock, non turbo setup first:

Injector duty cycle= The actual time the injector is "on" or spraying fuel

Our engines are matched to work with the ECU programming, and the stock injector size of 235cc's. Most fuel injectors are rated for max flow around 80- 85% duty cycle. This means that our stock injects will give around 235cc's of fuel flow at 80-85% duty cycle. At WOT, our engines wont go over 0 psi(non turbo remember). AT 0 psi, the map voltage will be around 4.5 volts. With that map voltage, it tells the ecu to give around 80% duty cycle to the injectors, as this will be all the needed fuel at WOT high rpm. Now, we add the turbo to this setup. We have to clamp the Map voltage at 0 psi on up, because if the ecu sees any voltage higher than that 4.5 volts, the ecu will try and give a higher duty cycle than 80%. The ecu is programmed to not allow this, and then we get fuel cut, as injectors can have problems at duty cycles over 80%. So we need to clam the map votage under boost, because the map will increase this voltage when it sees boost pressure. Thats why we need to clamp the map voltage under boost, so it will retain the 80& duty cycle, with no fuel cut. To get more fuel under boost, we up the fuel pressure form the stock injectors, to get more fuel. More pressure= more fuel. Think of a garden hose with a spray nozzle. Turn the water on lightly, it sprays very little. Turn up the water pressure, then we get more water. With me?

Now, if we put in larger than stock fuel injectors, we will get more fuel flow at each percentage of duty cycle over the stock injector. Lets take 440cc injectors for example, as they are around 2 TIMES the flow rate of stockers. This means, they will flow TWICE the amount of fuel at 80% duty cycle over the stock injectors at 80% duty cycle. Yes?

Now to run the fuel injectors on our cars, we need to lower the duty cycle by HALF of what it normally was. We do this by the Map sensor. Normally, stock injects, we need 4.5 volts for 80% duty cycle fuel flow. Now that we have TWICE the amount of fuel, we need to trim the map voltage by HALF to get the same amount of fuel flow as the stock injects. For example, to get the same fuel flow of 235cc at 4.5 map volts, we need to get 235cc of fuel flow out of the 440 injects by Halving the map voltage. Stock injects, at WOT (0psi) the map voltage is at 4.5 volts, and that = 80% duty cycle. In order to get the stock fuel flow out of 440 injects( remember 440cc's of fuel at 80% duty), we need to see a map voltage of 2.25 volts. This makes the duty cycle of 40%, which is half of 80%.

440's @ 40% duty cycle equals the same fuel flow of:
235's @ 80% duty cycle, because we are getting TWICE the fuel flow from an injector that is twice as big as the stockers. (this is just an example for simpicity, actual flow rates will be different)

Now the SMC works this way. You MUST run larger injects for it to work. Lets take the 440cc example again. Stock injects, at 0 psi, we have 235cc of fuel flow. With 440cc injects, we have 440cc of fuel flow at 0 psi, with duty cycles of 80% on both. Now we will get TWICE the fuel we reall need at that flow rate on the 440's, since they flow twice the amount of fuel. We need to tell the ECU to cut the duty cycle in half at 0 psi. We do this by altering the map voltage. Lets say for sake of discussion, at 0 psi, on 440's, that we need a map voltage of 2.25 volts, to get the proper fuel flow. With me? So now we will use the left over 40% of duty cycle for under boost conditions. So now, at over 0psi, the map will increase its voltage accordingly to boost pressure, and the smc will then increase the output voltage goint to the ecu greater than the 2.25 volts. Lets say at 10 psi, the map voltage is 9 volts. The SMC will cut this in half, to read the 4.5 volts to send out to the ecu, and the ecu will run the 80% duty cycle on the 440's. This is enough fuel flow for 10 psi of boost. Again, this is just for the sake of discussion, not acutal usable numbers.. Hopfully this makes sense..


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)

My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
CollenteOct-21-02 03:34 PM
Member since Sep 20th 2002
2447 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33032, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 37


          

OK,so I leave the board for an hour, and all this happens...
I have been emailing zip back and fourth trying to figure things out. He is going to mod the smc just for dsm's. We use a little different voltage settings then the honda's. I told him that the WOT is 4.5v and he needs to know our idle voltage. Someone told him that our map can only see 1-2 psi. xtremeRs you say that it is 1bar? (15psi) This changes a lot. He wasn't sure if it would work, because of this. Does anyone know what our idle voltage is? I dont ahave a voltameter handy...

This would not be be key for 15psi+ but im only going to be running 7psi (for now ). I think this is a cheap easy solution for the most of us.
my setup,

Walbro intank fuel pump.
IHI RHB5,
7PSI
SMIC
35lb ford injectors (not installed yet)
100octane pump gas

Nick
97RS

Nick
97RS

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
Matt_95tgsOct-21-02 04:11 PM
Donating 2GNT member
1246 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33033, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 38


          

Acutally, this smc is basically doing what an afc does with a few differences. The main principle is the same however, in that it alters the MAP signal to change injector duty cycle. IMO, this is still a big no no with our cars because the ecu will alter timing based on the MAP voltage as well. You gotta remember that the ecu uses the MAP voltage for other things than just injector duty cycle... If you want a good effective way of adding more fuel, just go buy an sfmu and a set of 310 cc injectors or even 440's. A datalogger would be nice to tune it, but it isnt absolutely necessary when going this route. However, a datalogger is absolutely necessary for tuning an afc or a smc because you need to be aware of how much timing is being advanced with the decreased MAP voltage. Just ask Dave_FL about timing increases due to reduced MAP voltage from the SAFC (melted forged JE pistons)...

The device is clever, I'll give it that, but is not by any means the ideal way to tune our turbocharged cars. I still believe that the best means of fuel delivery and timing control lies with Corbin's 8 injector setup and the J&S safeguard hands down. Hopefully I will be able to let you know how this exact setup performs with a dyno sheet in the next few months.

Matt
1995 Eclipse GS
2.0L, S16g Turbo, 8 Injectors, 26psi

1998 Eclipse GSX
2.3L Stroker, AEM EMS Converted to Speed Density, FP3065 Turbo, 35psi , and so on...

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

            
CollenteOct-21-02 11:21 PM
Member since Sep 20th 2002
2447 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33034, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 39


          

I am a little confused on this... Does is produce to much timing in higher boost or always? If this does that same thing as an AFC, then why do so many people use a product that doesn't work, how do they get the afc not to bump timing? Maybe im not really understanding this correctly.
Shine some light!
Thanks guys,
Nick
97RS

Nick
97RS

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

TeamXtremeRSOct-21-02 11:41 PM
Member since May 20th 2003
6329 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33035, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 0


          

As Matt said, this SMC will most likely give too much timing under boost, just as the SAFC. I was only relying on speculation of how much our maps can read boost. That is VERY important for the proper working of the SMC on our cars, as the HOnda/Acura cars may be different than ours. Whoever gets this installed, you MUST use a datalogger and an EGT gauge to tune it!!! It sure would suck for that person to blow their motor because of detonation. I REALLY want to know how much boost our stock maps can read, and how much voltage can be produced out of them under boost, not using a Missing Link or other voltage clamp. The only way to tell is to run the car under boost without a voltage clamp, and use a voltmeter hooked up to the map sensor as you boost, and see how high the voltage actually goes. Maybe someone here may know this already...Armond? Murix? Dino? Anyone? Armond had said that Murix was running 550's with no fuel cut defensor of any kind on the map sensor...and no fuel cut..which proves the theory of getting fuel cut because of injector duty cycle, not map voltage going over 4.5-4.7 volts... Whoever may install this SMC, use a datalogger, and run no more than 7 or 8 psi, and tune it mad rich, and run race gas. I would anyway..You dont want detonation
:o


13.5 @108 MPH-2.2 60ft(stupid FWD!)
S16G @ 18 PSI/FMIC/Running on MegaSquirt II (Now with sequential
fuel injection)

My webpage: http://eclipsed4evr.home.comcast.net
-1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS-T- "Toy"
-1992 Plymouth Laser Turbo AWD(SOLD)
-2000 Honda CR-V(daily)

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
CollenteOct-22-02 12:09 AM
Member since Sep 20th 2002
2447 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33036, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 41


          

When do you see the highger timing? when the Map senson reads over 4.5v? It is my understanding that the SMC clamps the map at our WOT. And will not let it go over. I could be way off, but I assume that your saying that it will bump timing over 4.5v.
I guess im just not understanding exactly how and when our ecu will bump the timing.
Nick
97RS

** Again, does anyone know our map voltage at idle?

If anyone wants to chat about this.. AIM = Collente

Nick
97RS

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
Matt_95tgsOct-22-02 02:16 AM
Donating 2GNT member
1246 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33037, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 42


          

The timing is increased whenever the smc reduces the MAP voltage from what it should be, which is basically always. The SMC reduces the MAP voltage so that the ecu thinks that there is less load on the engine than there really is. The ecu then decreases the duty cycle of the injectors and increases timing to run more efficiently and increase power. The problem is that the larger the injectors you run with an afc or an smc, the more that the MAP voltage is decreased in order to compensate for the higher flowing injectors at the same fuel pressure. Thus, the more timing advance you will see under closed loop boosted conditions. Honestly, I would feel safer running a decent regulator on stock injectors boosting 8 psi than I ever would with an afc or an smc and larger injectors. This is simply because reducing the MAP signal in our cars is a flat out bad idea unless you are na.

Matt
1995 Eclipse GS
2.0L, S16g Turbo, 8 Injectors, 26psi

1998 Eclipse GSX
2.3L Stroker, AEM EMS Converted to Speed Density, FP3065 Turbo, 35psi , and so on...

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

            
KirbyOct-22-02 02:40 AM
Donating 2GNT member
2181 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33038, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 43




          

I see there being timing problems as well. It's basiclly a cheaper SAFC. You will still run into the same problems. I'm still waiting on an update on the whole huge injectors with no problems thing. I don't see how that can work without causing any real problems. Just to bring in another thing on this topic, what about 95's they don't even need a voltage clamp so how does that change what's going on. What year is murix's car anyways....hhhhhmmmmm



I edited to the wiki!

Originally posted by DR1665
NOTE TO SELF: Go commando to wedding. Scar the Irishman for life.

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

            
CollenteOct-22-02 02:55 AM
Member since Sep 20th 2002
2447 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33039, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 43


          

So what setup would you reccomend? Corbins 8 injector setup, and a fmu? What is your opinion for a cheap reliable fuel setup for low to mid boost levels.
Nick
97RS

Nick
97RS

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

                
Matt_95tgsOct-22-02 12:08 PM
Donating 2GNT member
1246 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33040, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 45


          

Well, Corbin's 8 injector setup isnt cheap (I would know), but it allows you to add fuel electronically without the computer even knowing. It cost me about 550-600 bux (including the aeromotive regulator) and a whole lot of time to build and tune it, not including the cost of a datalogger which is required for tuning. You don't alter any sensor voltage, you just add more fuel with more injectors. Its the best solution that I have ever seen as far as fuel delivery goes for our cars, because it just adds fuel without affecting timing or anything else electronic related. If you dont have much cash, I would just stick with the stock injectors and the higher fuel pressures. For more $ you could add larger injectors (up to 440's) and a vortech SFMU to fine tune the fuel pressure. That is the next best route imo next to Corbin's setup.

Matt
1995 Eclipse GS
2.0L, S16g Turbo, 8 Injectors, 26psi

1998 Eclipse GSX
2.3L Stroker, AEM EMS Converted to Speed Density, FP3065 Turbo, 35psi , and so on...

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

WheatKingOct-22-02 03:56 AM
Old School 2GNTer
133 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33041, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 0


          

Humm.. correct me if i'm wrong.. but this just modifies the map voltage..

From experience we know that if you modify the map voltage too much it will bump the timing..

Basically timing is bumped somewhere between 1 and 4V on the map..

So.. putting bigger injectors in and doing a 50% correction will at wot make you read approx 2.5V on the map where it should be reading 5V.

The map sensor is used in "conjunction" with the other sensors in the car. It alone does not determine fuel injector pulsewidth.

Fuel injector pulse width is determined by engine rpm/manifold pressure/o2's/throttle position/air intake temp and this is magically turned into a number called LOAD %

It's this magical number that determines the fuel maps..

The only thing the computer doesn't keep track of is FUEL PRESSURE. This is the magic bullet for faking the system.

As soon as you start adding little black (blue) boxes you start messing with the load % variable. The more you mess with this the more you'll get strange timing and other weird (boost transition fuel shortage) problems..

Remember.. your car on the highway on a long cruise will go into a lean-burn type scenario.. if you tune wildly with your afc/fancy fuel knobby computer you'll go REAL lean when it adjusts.. (this is where LTFT comes into play)

Adjusting the maps should only be done in SMALL increments.. once you hit 0psi of pressure, the map needs to be clamped at approx 4.7V (missing link + VC2 do this, one is mechanical, one is electronic).. From here we have to manually tune the fuel pressure to maintain proper timing retard and proper fuel delivery.

There is no magic box for tuning.. This stuff isn't easy, nor should it be easy.

Fuel pressure is the key.. Little electronic boxes will only get you so far.. Make the mechanical parts do 1/2 the work so the electronics still remain happy.

On a side note, has ANYONE actually been able to map the knock sensor's effect on the ECU?

I have a weird feeling that on the 95, even though it's present, it doesn't do a whole hell of a lot. I can't even scan the knock count on the obd-II scanner.

-- WheatKing

-- DSM Junkie --
4 - 1G talons
4 - Avenger/sebrings
1 - Jeep to tow em home when they break

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
CollenteOct-24-02 02:55 AM
Member since Sep 20th 2002
2447 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33042, "RE: Alternative fuel setup to FPR, hi-flo pump, Missing Link"
In response to Reply # 46


          

What is max timing increase for safe performance?
I have a datalogger, and I assume you look at timing via the engine load. Does anyone have any numbers on this?
If I were going to go with the SMC or SAFC, what would I want to look out for?
Thanks guys,
Nick
97RS

Nick
97RS

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

        
Jasvb TS2K2Oct-25-02 03:24 AM
Member since Jun 25th 2002
1419 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#33043, "Where everyone go?"
In response to Reply # 48




          

O.k I have been reading on a MAP sensor mod, with the s-AFC, to increase fuel with boost instead of RPM, In it you use a 3 bar MAP sensor or 2bar for lower boost applicatios. All you have to do is switch the TPS input line on the SAFC to the output of the MAP sensor. Both are 0-5V sensors. Perhaps other 2GNT know more about this? I believe it's the same idea as in this "Fooling the s-AFC" mod. Please post opinion. Later.

Here is the link. http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55736

http://www.2gnt.com/www/corbin/foolafc.html




weasle745: and then to top it off, im not even an attractive guy. I look like Millhouse from the Simpsons, cant put on weight if my life depended on it, etc

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Top 2GNT Technical Turbo/Nitrous Tech topic #32994 Previous topic | Next topic
Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.2
Copyright 1997-2003 DCScripts.com

I generated this page in 0.20297789573669 seconds, executing 12 queries.