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Subject: "How to tune with 650's"

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Hult250R	Jun-10-04 12:39 PM
Donating 2GNT member 2017 posts,

#10576, "How to tune with 650's"

Ive read like 3 different sites and have seen 3 different ways to tune.
Some say look at fuel trims but some say not to if you dont have an AFPR (I dont have one)
If so what trims am I looking at on my logger?
Ive go the MMCD program

Current setup: 16G, FMIC, 255, 2 1/2 UICP, lower honeycomb removed and black screw screwed out flush, Apexi N1 DP and catback, External dump 02 housing, Im sure im forgetting a few things but thats the most of it.

Anyone have an idea of a baseline tune? Ive got the SAFC not the SAFC II

----------------------------------------

I used to have a 420A...

'92 TSi AWD

11.8 @ 119mph
470awhp 405 ft/lb torque
30psi on E85 w/ Borg Warner S256 Turbo

My DSM Registry: http://www.dsmregistry.com/166

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Replies to this topic

RE: How to tune with 650's, FlyinEsi, Jun-10-04 12:53 PM, #1

RE: How to tune with 650's, Hult250R, Jun-10-04 01:12 PM, #2

RE: How to tune with 650's, Team

Team

Jeff_99gs, Jun-10-04 01:13 PM, #3

RE: How to tune with 650's, Hult250R, Jun-10-04 01:22 PM, #4

RE: How to tune with 650's, FlyinEsi, Jun-10-04 01:34 PM, #5

RE: How to tune with 650's, HybriDSM, Jun-10-04 01:48 PM, #6

RE: How to tune with 650's, Hult250R, Jun-10-04 01:58 PM, #7

RE: How to tune with 650's, HybriDSM, Jun-10-04 02:03 PM, #8

RE: How to tune with 650's, Hult250R, Jun-10-04 01:49 PM, #9

RE: How to tune with 650's, Vandy420a, Jun-10-04 03:32 PM, #10

RE: How to tune with 650's, Hult250R, Jun-10-04 03:47 PM, #11

RE: How to tune with 650's, Vandy420a, Jun-10-04 03:57 PM, #12

RE: How to tune with 650's, Hult250R, Jun-10-04 04:14 PM, #13

RE: How to tune with 650's, Moderator

Moderator

eclipzGST, Jun-10-04 05:06 PM, #14

RE: How to tune with 650's, HybriDSM, Jun-10-04 05:07 PM, #15

RE: How to tune with 650's, Moderator

Moderator

eclipzGST, Jun-11-04 08:45 AM, #16

RE: How to tune with 650's, Hult250R, Jun-11-04 09:40 AM, #17

RE: How to tune with 650's, HybriDSM, Jun-11-04 12:22 PM, #18

RE: How to tune with 650's, Moderator

Moderator

eclipzGST, Jun-11-04 02:15 PM, #19

RE: How to tune with 650's, Hult250R, Jun-11-04 03:45 PM, #20

RE: How to tune with 650's, Hult250R, Jun-11-04 06:54 PM, #21

RE: How to tune with 650's, Moderator

Moderator

eclipzGST, Jun-11-04 07:38 PM, #22

RE: How to tune with 650's, BigBald, Jun-12-04 07:44 PM, #23

RE: How to tune with 650's, Vandy420a, Jun-12-04 09:48 PM, #24

FlyinEsi	Jun-10-04 12:53 PM
Donating 2GNT member 5187 posts,

#10577, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 0

I'm not going to be a lot of help, but I think with 650s, an AFPR is a MUST! If you want a bolt-on AFPR, go to www.fullthrottlespeed.com and ask them if they have them in stock. I had to wait over a month because they were out of parts, but I have it now and it is great, and like I said, bolt on. Good luck tuning the 650s.

Reverse El-Glo HVAC Panels Update: Finished
Expected Release Date: As soon as they mail them to me and I make sure they fit and work

Originally posted by DR1665 bubble = teh bust3d. emoji

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Hult250R	Jun-10-04 01:12 PM
Donating 2GNT member 2017 posts,

#10578, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 1

Originally posted by FlyinEsi
I'm not going to be a lot of help, but I think with 650s, an AFPR is a MUST! If you want a bolt-on AFPR, go to www.fullthrottlespeed.com and ask them if they have them in stock. I had to wait over a month because they were out of parts, but I have it now and it is great, and like I said, bolt on. Good luck tuning the 650s.

Reverse El-Glo HVAC Panels Update: Finished Expected Release Date: As soon as they mail them to me and I make sure they fit and work

Originally posted by DR1665 bubble = teh bust3d. emoji

hmm...
I think theres someone on here running 650's without one.
Do you have any suggestions on how to tune with the SAFC?

----------------------------------------

I used to have a 420A...

'92 TSi AWD

11.8 @ 119mph
470awhp 405 ft/lb torque
30psi on E85 w/ Borg Warner S256 Turbo

My DSM Registry: http://www.dsmregistry.com/166

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Jeff_99gs	Jun-10-04 01:13 PM
Donating 2GNT member 5473 posts,

#10579, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 1

AFPR is NOT a must with 650s.

Tune way rich then back out from there. Put everything at +10 and work your way down. Keep track of your knock count and timing. Not your o2 readings.

RRE has base lines to use I believe. They did when I started tuning anyway.

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Hult250R	Jun-10-04 01:22 PM
Donating 2GNT member 2017 posts,

#10580, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 3

Originally posted by Jeff_99gs
AFPR is NOT a must with 650s. Tune way rich then back out from there. Put everything at +10 and work your way down. Keep track of your knock count and timing. Not your o2 readings. RRE has base lines to use I believe. They did when I started tuning anyway.

What about tuning Lo throttle and Hi Throttle?
How do I tune each of them?

With the knock and timing, Is the knock high when its lean or rich?
Also what about the timing??
What about looking at fuel trims, some sites have said to monito that too, What on the logger am I looking at for the fuel trim? I have the MMCD program

----------------------------------------

I used to have a 420A...

'92 TSi AWD

11.8 @ 119mph
470awhp 405 ft/lb torque
30psi on E85 w/ Borg Warner S256 Turbo

My DSM Registry: http://www.dsmregistry.com/166

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FlyinEsi	Jun-10-04 01:34 PM
Donating 2GNT member 5187 posts,

#10581, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 4

I read on RRE's site, I think, to tune on low throttle, set your rpms with the throttle at whatever you want to set and lean it out until you can hear the exhaust popping a little bit.

Someone please verify this...

Hi-Throttle, I have no idea about, that is why I got dsmlink.

___________________________________

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HybriDSM	Jun-10-04 01:48 PM
Member since Aug 07th 2002 2407 posts,

#10582, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 5
Jun-10-04 01:49 PM by HybriDSM

Don't tune by "popping sound". Get a datalogger at the very least and tune with knock counts. Doing it any other way is just guess work.

Set the Low to 20% and hi to 80% and tune super rich and back it down til' your 02's are under control but you are still not knocking (well a count here or there is passable but not recommended). The setting for hi are the important ones as those represent the settings that are default at WOT and close to full throttle. 20% setting are those that exist when the car is idling and having barely any gas applied. All throttle positions in between are computed by taking the mathematical average of 20 and 80 for any given throttle percentage. This means, at exactly 50% throttle, the car will take 20 and 80 and average them out.

Knock means lean means bad means give more fuel before you melt piston.

It's running again shitheads.

http://www.dsmregistry.com/detail.php?carid=791

HybriDSM@gmail.com ; HybriDSM@hotmail.com

Think for yourself. Question authority does not always mean disagree with authority.

If life were perfect, I'd be Calvin and you'd be Hobbes.

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Hult250R	Jun-10-04 01:58 PM
Donating 2GNT member 2017 posts,

#10583, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 6

Originally posted by HybriDSM
Don't tune by "popping sound". Get a datalogger at the very least and tune with knock counts. Doing it any other way is just guess work. Set the Low to 20% and hi to 80% and tune super rich and back it down til' your 02's are under control but you are still not knocking (well a count here or there is passable but not recommended). The setting for hi are the important ones as those represent the settings that are default at WOT and close to full throttle. 20% setting are those that exist when the car is idling and having barely any gas applied. All throttle positions in between are computed by taking the mathematical average of 20 and 80 for any given throttle percentage. This means, at exactly 50% throttle, the car will take 20 and 80 and average them out. Knock means lean means bad means give more fuel before you melt piston.

What about fuel trim??
Should I look at that too?
Ive heard since I dont have an AFPR not too look at them for some reason.

----------------------------------------

I used to have a 420A...

'92 TSi AWD

11.8 @ 119mph
470awhp 405 ft/lb torque
30psi on E85 w/ Borg Warner S256 Turbo

My DSM Registry: http://www.dsmregistry.com/166

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HybriDSM	Jun-10-04 02:03 PM
Member since Aug 07th 2002 2407 posts,

#10584, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 7

Originally posted by Hult250R

Originally posted by HybriDSM Don't tune by "popping sound". Get a datalogger at the very least and tune with knock counts. Doing it any other way is just guess work. Set the Low to 20% and hi to 80% and tune super rich and back it down til' your 02's are under control but you are still not knocking (well a count here or there is passable but not recommended). The setting for hi are the important ones as those represent the settings that are default at WOT and close to full throttle. 20% setting are those that exist when the car is idling and having barely any gas applied. All throttle positions in between are computed by taking the mathematical average of 20 and 80 for any given throttle percentage. This means, at exactly 50% throttle, the car will take 20 and 80 and average them out. Knock means lean means bad means give more fuel before you melt piston.

What about fuel trim?? Should I look at that too? Ive heard since I dont have an AFPR not too look at them for some reason.

I never have really looked at fuel trims. Maybe Jeff can chime in on that, but I personally have never used that as a tuning tool.

It's running again shitheads.

http://www.dsmregistry.com/detail.php?carid=791

HybriDSM@gmail.com ; HybriDSM@hotmail.com

Think for yourself. Question authority does not always mean disagree with authority.

If life were perfect, I'd be Calvin and you'd be Hobbes.

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Hult250R	Jun-10-04 01:49 PM
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#10585, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 5

Originally posted by FlyinEsi
I read on RRE's site, I think, to tune on low throttle, set your rpms with the throttle at whatever you want to set and lean it out until you can hear the exhaust popping a little bit. Someone please verify this... Hi-Throttle, I have no idea about, that is why I got dsmlink.

I got the info from RRE but its pretty much just to tune with 02's Id rathernot do that becase its not as accurate and my 02 sensor might need replaced...

----------------------------------------

I used to have a 420A...

'92 TSi AWD

11.8 @ 119mph
470awhp 405 ft/lb torque
30psi on E85 w/ Borg Warner S256 Turbo

My DSM Registry: http://www.dsmregistry.com/166

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Vandy420a	Jun-10-04 03:32 PM
Member since Jun 04th 2003 2037 posts,

#10586, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 9

Look at timing if you're using a pocketlogger--its not as good as knock but it helps. I"m pretty sure you want to shoot for 18-20 degrees advance at WOT. Another helpful tool is EGT's after you get the basics dialed in, but remember: EGT's will shoot up and give you a "false positive" about lean conditions when its too rich b/c flames travel from the combustion chambers into the exhaust manifold at high fuel levels.

---------------------------------------

Black 98 GST missing her owner and looking for a new one...Inquiries welcome

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Hult250R	Jun-10-04 03:47 PM
Donating 2GNT member 2017 posts,

#10587, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 10

Originally posted by Vandy420a
Look at timing if you're using a pocketlogger--its not as good as knock but it helps. I"m pretty sure you want to shoot for 18-20 degrees advance at WOT. Another helpful tool is EGT's after you get the basics dialed in, but remember: EGT's will shoot up and give you a "false positive" about lean conditions when its too rich b/c flames travel from the combustion chambers into the exhaust manifold at high fuel levels.

Ive got an EGT gauge too. I always keep an eye on em
Where should they be for a "safe" tune?

----------------------------------------

I used to have a 420A...

'92 TSi AWD

11.8 @ 119mph
470awhp 405 ft/lb torque
30psi on E85 w/ Borg Warner S256 Turbo

My DSM Registry: http://www.dsmregistry.com/166

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Vandy420a	Jun-10-04 03:57 PM
Member since Jun 04th 2003 2037 posts,

#10588, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 11

depends if you have F or C, but its still the same temp (duh). I've heard 900C is the no-no zone, but I'd tune around 850-860 just to be safe. This is the area where I noticed the largest diff with the fp rewire mod---

a 4th or 5th gear pull, even if its very minor (highway driving) will shoot those suckers up in no time if you're not getting enough fuel.

Interestingly enough, aluminum melts at 660ish C (1200ish F), meaning anyone who tells you "you are gonna melt your head" is a dumbass---> i'm not sure why nothign melts anyways, i do sustained drives (3hours between stops) with EGT's at around 780C and never have any problems (knock on wood) emoji

---------------------------------------

Black 98 GST missing her owner and looking for a new one...Inquiries welcome

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Hult250R	Jun-10-04 04:14 PM
Donating 2GNT member 2017 posts,

#10589, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 12

Originally posted by Vandy420a
depends if you have F or C, but its still the same temp (duh). I've heard 900C is the no-no zone, but I'd tune around 850-860 just to be safe. This is the area where I noticed the largest diff with the fp rewire mod--- a 4th or 5th gear pull, even if its very minor (highway driving) will shoot those suckers up in no time if you're not getting enough fuel. Interestingly enough, aluminum melts at 660ish C (1200ish F), meaning anyone who tells you "you are gonna melt your head" is a dumbass---> i'm not sure why nothign melts anyways, i do sustained drives (3hours between stops) with EGT's at around 780C and never have any problems (knock on wood) emoji

Ive got a Fahrenheit gauge
AutoMeter with the stock AutoMeter probe
so like 1600F is teh no zone?

----------------------------------------

I used to have a 420A...

'92 TSi AWD

11.8 @ 119mph
470awhp 405 ft/lb torque
30psi on E85 w/ Borg Warner S256 Turbo

My DSM Registry: http://www.dsmregistry.com/166

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eclipzGST	Jun-10-04 05:06 PM
Old School 2GNTer 7335 posts,

#10590, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 13

1600^ is "safe". If you start climbing past that, back off.
Here's is the link to the RRE page. I used this just to set my lo-thrtl settings:http://www.roadraceengineering.com/newafc.htm

__________________________________________________________
-Tony <--- NOT asian.
'06 Wicked White EVO IX

Originally posted by Avenger
When I raise the BS flag ... it's a really big fucking flag and I raise it really fucking high too.

"Never whistle while your pissing." ~The illuminatus Trilogy

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HybriDSM	Jun-10-04 05:07 PM
Member since Aug 07th 2002 2407 posts,

#10591, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 13

I was wrong a little bit on my earlier post. Tune by making it rich and then leaning it out until you get a little bit of knock. Then richen it up enough to get rid of the small amount of knock and you'll be fine. O2's aren't really applicable at all.

It's running again shitheads.

http://www.dsmregistry.com/detail.php?carid=791

HybriDSM@gmail.com ; HybriDSM@hotmail.com

Think for yourself. Question authority does not always mean disagree with authority.

If life were perfect, I'd be Calvin and you'd be Hobbes.

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eclipzGST	Jun-11-04 08:45 AM
Old School 2GNTer 7335 posts,

#10592, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 15

Originally posted by HybriDSM
I was wrong a little bit on my earlier post. Tune by making it rich and then leaning it out until you get a little bit of knock. Then richen it up enough to get rid of the small amount of knock and you'll be fine. O2's aren't really applicable at all.

Unless of course you have a 2G and can't read knock... emoji

I know you can just watch timing but there are other things than "lean knock" that will pull timing. RPM, load, ect...
Hell, noisy lifters will cause phantom knock bad enough to retard timing. The bad thing is the ECU can't tell the difference between the 2 and will pull timing regardless.
You 1G guys are all set but we have a little more to "figure out" when tuning.

__________________________________________________________
-Tony <--- NOT asian.
'06 Wicked White EVO IX

Originally posted by Avenger
When I raise the BS flag ... it's a really big fucking flag and I raise it really fucking high too.

"Never whistle while your pissing." ~The illuminatus Trilogy

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Hult250R	Jun-11-04 09:40 AM
Donating 2GNT member 2017 posts,

#10593, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 16

What kinda boost pressure is a good place to start?
Ive got it set at about 15 psi now..
I just finished installing the 650's so hopefully this weekend Ill get it out and tune her.

----------------------------------------

I used to have a 420A...

'92 TSi AWD

11.8 @ 119mph
470awhp 405 ft/lb torque
30psi on E85 w/ Borg Warner S256 Turbo

My DSM Registry: http://www.dsmregistry.com/166

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HybriDSM	Jun-11-04 12:22 PM
Member since Aug 07th 2002 2407 posts,

#10594, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 16

Originally posted by eclipzGST

Originally posted by HybriDSM I was wrong a little bit on my earlier post. Tune by making it rich and then leaning it out until you get a little bit of knock. Then richen it up enough to get rid of the small amount of knock and you'll be fine. O2's aren't really applicable at all.

Unless of course you have a 2G and can't read knock... emoji

I know you can just watch timing but there are other things than "lean knock" that will pull timing. RPM, load, ect... Hell, noisy lifters will cause phantom knock bad enough to retard timing. The bad thing is the ECU can't tell the difference between the 2 and will pull timing regardless. You 1G guys are all set but we have a little more to "figure out" when tuning.

Ah, but you, young grasshopper, have the gift of DSMLink. An equitable tradeoff, I most certainly maintain.

It's running again shitheads.

http://www.dsmregistry.com/detail.php?carid=791

HybriDSM@gmail.com ; HybriDSM@hotmail.com

Think for yourself. Question authority does not always mean disagree with authority.

If life were perfect, I'd be Calvin and you'd be Hobbes.

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eclipzGST	Jun-11-04 02:15 PM
Old School 2GNTer 7335 posts,

#10595, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 18
Jun-11-04 02:17 PM by eclipzGST

Originally posted by HybriDSM

Originally posted by eclipzGST

Originally posted by HybriDSM I was wrong a little bit on my earlier post. Tune by making it rich and then leaning it out until you get a little bit of knock. Then richen it up enough to get rid of the small amount of knock and you'll be fine. O2's aren't really applicable at all.

Unless of course you have a 2G and can't read knock... emoji

I know you can just watch timing but there are other things than "lean knock" that will pull timing. RPM, load, ect... Hell, noisy lifters will cause phantom knock bad enough to retard timing. The bad thing is the ECU can't tell the difference between the 2 and will pull timing regardless. You 1G guys are all set but we have a little more to "figure out" when tuning.

Ah, but you, young grasshopper, have the gift of DSMLink. An equitable tradeoff, I most certainly maintain.

LOL, yeah right. At $600 plus whatever for a 95 eprom ecu, I'd hardly call it a "gift"! emoji

edit: patience "old wise one", 1G DSMLink will be released in the not so distant future...

__________________________________________________________
-Tony <--- NOT asian.
'06 Wicked White EVO IX

Originally posted by Avenger
When I raise the BS flag ... it's a really big fucking flag and I raise it really fucking high too.

"Never whistle while your pissing." ~The illuminatus Trilogy

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Hult250R	Jun-11-04 03:45 PM
Donating 2GNT member 2017 posts,

#10596, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 19
Jun-11-04 03:51 PM by Hult250R

ok, ,i went out and atempted to tune the LO settings but all i got was pissed off...
look at this link and see what they say about tuning the lo with a logger
http://www.prostreetonline.com/pso/pages/howto/showarticle.asp?articleid=31

Whats the deal with the fuel trims?

I tried to do it with knock but no matter how low I set the AFC i dont seem to get any knock at any RPM range
And I cant get the 02's to fluxuate either. like at 3k rpm's it sits at like .42
Im getting nothing but frustrated

Ok I just found this in the TampaBay CLub DSM site:
http://tampabay.dsm.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=2472

Quote from that post: (for setting Lo Point)

So a session might go like this:

Drive car, wait till it is warmed up.
Hold RPMS steady at 2k. O2s read a constant 0.91-0.92V
Lean things out a few percentage points until the O2s oscillate.
Continue to slowly lean until the oscillation stops and the O2s stay on the lower half of the range.
Add about 10% and that's your number for that Lo Throttle RPM point.

Does this sound right?

----------------------------------------

I used to have a 420A...

'92 TSi AWD

11.8 @ 119mph
470awhp 405 ft/lb torque
30psi on E85 w/ Borg Warner S256 Turbo

My DSM Registry: http://www.dsmregistry.com/166

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Hult250R	Jun-11-04 06:54 PM
Donating 2GNT member 2017 posts,

#10597, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 20

Ok Nevermind about my above post...
I took it out and logged a few runs...
heres a post about the fuel trims for Lo throttoe settings.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58403

read the part that says "STEP 2: Fuel trims and low throttle "
Is setting the fuel trims really necessary?
Or is there a better /easier way to set the Lo Setting?

----------------------------------------

I used to have a 420A...

'92 TSi AWD

11.8 @ 119mph
470awhp 405 ft/lb torque
30psi on E85 w/ Borg Warner S256 Turbo

My DSM Registry: http://www.dsmregistry.com/166

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eclipzGST	Jun-11-04 07:38 PM
Old School 2GNTer 7335 posts,

#10598, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 21

Originally posted by Hult250R
Or is there a better /easier way to set the Lo Setting?

How about this way like I posted earlier...
http://www.roadraceengineering.com/newafc.htm

__________________________________________________________
-Tony <--- NOT asian.
'06 Wicked White EVO IX

Originally posted by Avenger
When I raise the BS flag ... it's a really big fucking flag and I raise it really fucking high too.

"Never whistle while your pissing." ~The illuminatus Trilogy

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BigBald	Jun-12-04 07:44 PM
Member since Oct 22nd 2002 2715 posts,

#10599, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 22

Buy the chip and solve most of your problems....it did mines and a few others.....

_____________________________________________
Jerrome B.
1995 GSX - Race
1997 GST - Drive
1995 GST - Who the hell knows

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Vandy420a	Jun-12-04 09:48 PM
Member since Jun 04th 2003 2037 posts,

#10600, "RE: How to tune with 650's"
In response to Reply # 23

Originally posted by BigBald
Buy the chip and solve most of your problems....it did mines and a few others.....

yeah but then you gotta find a #()*&@ing Eprom ECU

---------------------------------------

Black 98 GST missing her owner and looking for a new one...Inquiries welcome

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