Just did some tooling around in the search and found lots of information about the drums in the rear of our lower trim level 2GNTs. Figured I might compile some of this information and pose a couple questions I've got. I think this thread is titled good for future reference. That said...

* Purchase both new drums and the "hardware kit" with the springs, shims, whatever, when you buy your shoes. Sounds like a good idea considering how long it might be before you actually bother with these bastards again. Also, there is a special type of pliers to use removing/installing the springs back there.

* Chock the front wheels and disengage the parking brake before attempting to remove the drums. Apparently it makes getting started a great deal less frustrating.

* Use the proper bolt to remove the drum. I've seen some people say it's an 8mm head, but more often, people suggest one with a 10mm head. I suppose it doesn't matter so long as the thread pitch is right. Saw lots of information on soaking things with PB Blaster and then beating them mercilessly with mallets, hammers, and even blacksmith's hammers. I think I will take the car to Midas or something and have them use their tools to remove the drums as part of their free inspection service. Bolts are always easier to remove if they've been broken loose recently. I'll try to get the pitch of this bolt they require if I can.

Now, for my questions about these guys, let me just say that front rotor warpage has been the bane of my existance for several years now. Seems like, no matter what I do,my fronts don't last a month before they are warped to shit and it totally pisses me the fuck off. I have tried new rotors, different pads, new fluid and bleeding the brakes, removing the dust shields and opening the splash guards to provide better airflow, but they still warp. Every time. I've tried seating the pads better, and even cleaning the hubs up as best I can with some sand paper and brake-kleen before I install the new rotors with the same shitty results.

So, I'm realizing that I have over 171k on the original rear drum set up. I had them inspected about 50k ago, but I was told they looked brand new at that time by the guy at Midas. No big deal imo. I know they don't handle much more than maybe 30% of the actual braking duties, but once they wear out, I'm thinking that additional 10, 20, 30% requried of the fronts might lead to premature warping. I'm also wondering how one would know if their drums need to be replaced? Are they supposed to sound off like the pads up front?

Like I said, I've got a shit ton of miles on these bastards and I've adjusted the tension on my eBrake cable at least three times in the last few years, so I know they're getting tired, but how likely is it that they might be a contributing factor in the constant front warpage?

I've also read a couple people mention the front hub itself being warped? Is this possible? Could a front bearing (with just as many miles as the rear drums and pretty much the rest of the chassis) display the same symptoms of front rotor warpage and/or contribute?

I've got a 5,000 mile trip to make in about five weeks and I would really like to roll out of Phoenix with more confidence in my brake system. I will be installing GSX front calipers and PowerSlot rotors up front, but I'd like to make sure the rears are competent and not likely to fuck up the new digs up front.

Thanks for any replies and I hope someone bumps this thread and shares how this thread helped them out sometime in 2007.

Your front rotors warp because the stock spec and especially the OEM rotors are woefully inadequate. I could take a showroom new eclipse and warp its rotors in under 5 minutes. Given the fact that DSMs are rather heavy, and easily capable of regular triple digit speeds, the cute little front brakes we have just don't cut it.

The solution is very simple. Get better or bigger rotors. OEM sized Powerslots take much longer to warp, if ever. GSX brake calipers and a Powerslot or any other larger, quality rotor would be nearly indestructible.

Another huge factor is correct rim installation and exact, even lug torque. If you have aftermarket wheels, you should always use the nylon hubcentric rings. Making sure the wheel is exactly torqued, and not crooked, is the ONLY thing that holds the rotor itself flat against the hub.

The drums on the other hand will outlast your car IMO. The drum shoes last a long ass time. Knowing this, most places like Midas will not actually open up the drums and inspect the shoes. Mine have squealed since the car was brand new and I've had 3 different dealerships tell me they have 90% life left and are in perfect operation. (The squealing was part of the design, im sure, right? ) I've gone completely through 3 sets of front pads, and 3 sets of front rotors, yet never even used up a quarter of the drum shoes.

I would add to this that very rarely is a shop (especially midas) going to knock off the back drums to check your shoes. I used to work at a tire shop and I believe we rarely checked them. Usually the only reason why we WOULD check them was because our mechanics worked on commision. Sometimes getting those drums off required hitting with a hammer. Doesn't hurt it (moderation people). I would also like to know about the PowerSlot rotors as I plan on upgrading to these all the way around.

http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/warped_rotors_myth.htm

http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/bedincontents.htm

http://www.stoptech.com/whitepapers/warpaway.htm

Read until your eyes bleed. Carroll Smith was a great builder. I trust, very much, what he said, and recommend for anybody else to do the same.

The best way to pull the drums off when they are stuck is to colapse the inner assembly by cuting the heads off the pins on the back. The drum is held on by the rust ring inside the drum, and it's hitting the pads. Make sure you get the hardware kit if your going to cut the pins, it's a dealer item too. I had to 'fabricate' a pin for mine cause I didn't wanna goto the dealer.

____________________________________________________
four nails four corners four riders and four horses

I pulled mine off without a problem... I think that there is a threaded hole that will act as a puller. Give that a shot.

Yeah mine just come right off

I'd also like to say that, at least imo, GSX fronts and all that with drum rears is pretty fucking gay. You can upgrade your rears with sway bars from any junkyard for less than $200 with some elbow grease of your own.

nm.

Thanks for the links, Ducking. I'll do some reading tomorrow morning at work.

I'm guilty of oversimplifying here. I was using the common concept of "warped brakes" rather than explaining how stock pads melt to the cute little rotors that don't dissipate enough heat, and eventually create hotspots that crack the rotor. The end result, either way, is you have a rotor that needs to be resurfaced or replaced every week.

I also forgot to include that I always use Axxis Metal Master pads when I upgrade to bigger/better rotors, which work great at high speeds, and only suffer a little in the squealing & no brake power around town department.

There's a great sticky on this topic at the top of this forum btw.

Also- Rear drums to rear discs on our cars is NOT an upgrade.

Evo 8 - 12.3@113 circa 2009 (~330whp)
Now with BB Xona Rotor HTZ FP Red and ~450whp
2018 MSM Civic SI Ktuner TSP stage 1 w/ Honda hacked headunit.

1995 Eagle Talon ESi

It would be interesting to see the pad surface area/torque moment on a disc vs. the shoe friction area/torque moment on a drum. What is nice about a drum is that the shoes are pulled off of the drum, reducing drag when the brakes are not applied.

I don't think that enough braking on a 2G is done in the rear to really cause concern for heat. This definately holds true once the fronts are upgraded. The more effective your front brakes/tires are, the less effective your rear brakes need to be.

If you wanted to go all hard core racer at it, rear disks would help because as you increase the rigidity of the suspension, your weight is spread more evenly across all four wheels. This means that the fronts will lock up sooner while the rears will lock up later then they typically would in a stock suspensioned car. In a track car that is likely to have a very stiff suspension, having rear disks may be an advantage.

1995 Eagle Talon ESi

And drums look fucking retarded too, they're fine on a stock car but if you have big old fucking front rotors with those shitty drums in the rear you'll get clowned on.

-marc

LOL.... hey DR1665, I figured out why I was locking up in the NJ traffic and the timing of this thread coincides, so I figured I would chime in.

I put new pads on the back (I have disc rears) and drove around, seated them, and then put them to the test. On an empty road, of course.

First off, the other poster may be right about saying that new pads do not actually decrease your stopping distance, but they sure as hell make it a lot easier to modulate your braking pressure, as well as (imo) give a better (sharper) bite to your rear brakes. With my new, improved braking feeling I was better able to dance around the envelope and realized that my front left wheel was the weak link, and was locking before any other wheel. But I was testing in a straight line so I could not understand why one side would seemingly pass threshold before the other.

I explained my problem to a knowledgable friend of mine who advised that I needed to bleed out my right front brake line as it probably has air in it, causing uneven braking; thus the front left lockup under threshold braking.

Anyways, I just got a kick out of this thread coming up after my enlightenment. Good luck on your trip, and if you see any NJ plates you may want to take evasive action.

Proud owner of a '95. Johnny Tran says the '95 VTEC just kicked in, yo.


RICE: AEM Short Ram, CI 55mm Throttle Body, GS-T Muffler, Self-Made Ground Wire Kit, Caulk, Duct Tape,
and "Stage 1 Weight Reduction" aka screws and bolts always left over from working on car.

I will be sure to have the $20 torque wrench on hand when I do install the GSX fronts on Daisy. I've got a few friends coming in from SoCal and Vegas on the 30th to help me get all the last little projects completed before Daisy hits the road for the Shootout and I aim to have all the stuff I need for my brakes by then.

When you say plastic rings and be careful with them hot-lapping, Juan, do they themselves warp or tend to melt? I will definitely look for them when I pull the wheels next time. Never even knew about them until this thread. Bought the wheels from Wheelmax. Wonder if they came with them...

1995 Eagle Talon ESi

Repeated aggressive braking and aggressive pads is the basic recipe for building up that kind of heat, and is most often encountered when cooking around a racetrack.

It is possible to get the discs glowing on street cars too. Scot Gray (http://www.blak94gsx.com/) mentioned he has had his light up running the canyons north of LA at night...


juan

wow I had no idea that would affect the rings like that. my car will soon get its fair share of track abuse.. maybe its time to get metal rings.

1995 Eagle Talon ESi

Evo 8 - 12.3@113 circa 2009 (~330whp)
Now with BB Xona Rotor HTZ FP Red and ~450whp
2018 MSM Civic SI Ktuner TSP stage 1 w/ Honda hacked headunit.

From the Comprehensive Specs on Info & Specs from the Main site, the inside diameter needs to be:
Centerbore = 67.1mm

(it is a fairly common size, shared with Nissans, Fords and Mazdas sporting 5x114.3 hubs)


As for the inside diameter of the wheel (the outside diameter of the hub ring), I guess you'll have to contact the company that manufactured it, or maybe knowledgeable places that sell it. Or try Google?

juan