I did a little figuring. With an empty tank, 15 gallons of 91 octane with 1.9 gallons of toluene raises the octane to 93.5. This comes out to about $7.60 of toluene per fill-up(at $4.00/gal of toluene.) Not too bad if you are out west and can't find 93 octane anywhere. Even better if you raise the pump gas-to-toluene ratio to make whichever octane you need. I didn't figure how cost effective this would be compared to just buying race gas though.
#84226, "RE: Toluene" In response to Reply # 0 Jan-02-05 10:40 AM by RxR_Eclipse
Depending on where you live, You could just get some 114 unleaded from a local pump for 4.95/gal or you can get it via the internet in drums *I think*. You can also use AV gas that you can purchase from most local airports. It does have some lead in it but it wouldn't hurt your O2 sensor for miles and miles. You cannot pump AV fuel right from the pump to your car.
I'd consider doing that in a pinch, but I'd rather use the race gas blend. Working with straight Toluene can be dangerous (but then again, so can working with gasoline).
#84295, "RE: Toluene" In response to Reply # 3 Jan-04-05 07:30 AM by thedawg
Racegas is always cheaper or equivalent to buying Toluene.
The only reason to consider Toluene is if you have no source of unleaded racegas. If your local speed shop is 300 miles away, you'll spend $50 in gas just driving there and back. Whereas Toluene is available in any paint store like Sherwin Williams.
Note: Toluene and racegas are useful on a TURBO CAR ONLY. Putting it in any non-turbo car on this board is completely pointless and will foul your o2 sensor.
Originally posted by thedawg Note: Toluene and racegas are useful on a TURBO CAR ONLY. Putting it in any non-turbo car on this board is completely pointless and will foul your o2 sensor.
Always qualify your statements. Build a high compression engine and the extra octane would be helpful.
#84329, "RE: Toluene" In response to Reply # 5 Jan-04-05 02:43 PM by WickedESi
Talking to the CEO of Rockett Brand Racing Fuel (formerly 76 Racing Fuels), one of our sponsors for the AU formula team, he says you shouldn't use toluene to raise octane and only real race gas, because the oxygen, and other hydrocarbon, content of the fuel isn't raised by adding toluene (which is what helps in ignition of the fuel) and there are other harmful side effects, which are far worse then lead in leaded race gas.
Joel Baldridge, ASE Certified Master Technician, Audi Certified Expert Technician
Originally posted by WickedESi Talking to the CEO of Rockett Brand Racing Fuel (formerly 76 Racing Fuels), one of our sponsors for the AU formula team, he says you shouldn't use toluene to raise octane and only real race gas, because the oxygen, and other hydrocarbon, content of the fuel isn't raised by adding toluene (which is what helps in ignition of the fuel) and there are other harmful side effects, which are far worse then lead in leaded race gas.
besides the fact that many, many people have "claimed" to run it without any "ill" affects, i believe your statement.
We are going to run it in the silvia only because of no race gas locally. also the ecu is tuned for 102 octane soo......low boost maps suck
I eat emo kids for breakfast
1995 Eagle Talon (SOLD) 72' SuperBeetle 72' Standard Beetle 56' Deluxe Beetle
Originally posted by WickedESi Talking to the CEO of Rockett Brand Racing Fuel (formerly 76 Racing Fuels), one of our sponsors for the AU formula team, he says you shouldn't use toluene to raise octane and only real race gas, because the oxygen, and other hydrocarbon, content of the fuel isn't raised by adding toluene (which is what helps in ignition of the fuel) and there are other harmful side effects, which are far worse then lead in leaded race gas.
the oxygen content??? goddamnit oxygenated gasoline sucks. the oxygen actually LOWERS the energy in the fuel....... toluene IS a hydrocarbon, C7H8 in a cyclic arrangement, with a RON blending octane of 124 and a MON blending octane of 112... serioulsy read this http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/
2005 Legacy GT Ltd, Garnet Red Pearl speak softly and spool a big turbo
Originally posted by WickedESi Talking to the CEO of Rockett Brand Racing Fuel (formerly 76 Racing Fuels), one of our sponsors for the AU formula team, he says you shouldn't use toluene to raise octane and only real race gas, because the oxygen, and other hydrocarbon, content of the fuel isn't raised by adding toluene (which is what helps in ignition of the fuel) and there are other harmful side effects, which are far worse then lead in leaded race gas.
the oxygen content??? goddamnit oxygenated gasoline sucks. the oxygen actually LOWERS the energy in the fuel....... toluene IS a hydrocarbon, C7H8 in a cyclic arrangement, with a RON blending octane of 124 and a MON blending octane of 112... serioulsy read this http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/
Thanks for clearing that up
I was going to say...kinda funny when F1 teams ran 75% pure Toluene in their cars
Originally posted by 97whitESi the oxygen content??? goddamnit oxygenated gasoline sucks. the oxygen actually LOWERS the energy in the fuel....... toluene IS a hydrocarbon, C7H8 in a cyclic arrangement, with a RON blending octane of 124 and a MON blending octane of 112... serioulsy read this http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/
Oxygen in race fuel reduces detonation, and allows it to burn more effectivly (yes, oxygenates themself are not energy, but they make it so your able to burn more fuel, resulting in more power).
Want proof? Dyno a car with some toluene blended to 112 and then some 112 octane race gas and notice the power difference.
Joel Baldridge, ASE Certified Master Technician, Audi Certified Expert Technician
Originally posted by 97whitESi the oxygen content??? goddamnit oxygenated gasoline sucks. the oxygen actually LOWERS the energy in the fuel....... toluene IS a hydrocarbon, C7H8 in a cyclic arrangement, with a RON blending octane of 124 and a MON blending octane of 112... serioulsy read this http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/
Oxygen in race fuel reduces detonation, and allows it to burn more effectivly (yes, oxygenates themself are not energy, but they make it so your able to burn more fuel, resulting in more power). Want proof? Dyno a car with some toluene blended to 112 and then some 112 octane race gas and notice the power difference.
you gotta qualify whether the 112 octane is via lead, oxygenates, or aromatics if its via oxygenates, the toluene blend will make more power, with less fuel consumption (oxygenated gas is run richer by modern ECUs to accomdate the fact that it has 3-4% less energy to be utilized)
if its via aromatics, it pretty much IS a toluene blend (not likely in US, VERY likely in countries with more lax emissions laws)
if leaded, the leaded gas should make more power
oxygenated gas does NOT make more power by itself, it either makes less with same fuel consumption, or makes the same with 3-4% greater fuel consumption.
2005 Legacy GT Ltd, Garnet Red Pearl speak softly and spool a big turbo
Yes, toluene contains more energy, but oxygenated gas burns more efficiently. It is that reason that in a real life situation you will be less prone to detonation (due to hot spots, and other factors that the MON doesn't account for), and also burning more of the fuel that is injected.
All in all, I would use a fuel that's designed for racing, and not something you've mixed yourself.
Joel Baldridge, ASE Certified Master Technician, Audi Certified Expert Technician
Originally posted by WickedESi Yes, toluene contains more energy, but oxygenated gas burns more efficiently. It is that reason that in a real life situation you will be less prone to detonation (due to hot spots, and other factors that the MON doesn't account for), and also burning more of the fuel that is injected. All in all, I would use a fuel that's designed for racing, and not something you've mixed yourself.
how does containing 3-4% less power make it more efficient? a motor MUST be tuned to use oxygenated gas, or else it is either A. leaner or B. using more fuel racing fuel is TOTALLY different from oxygenated fuel.
"For the same efficiency and power output, more fuel has to be burnt, and the slight improvements in combustion efficiency that oxygenates provide on some engines usually do not completely compensate for the oxygen." -gasoline FAQ straight from the gasoline FAQ.
2005 Legacy GT Ltd, Garnet Red Pearl speak softly and spool a big turbo
Just because a chemical has the potential energy doesn't mean you're going to see it.
If something burns more efficiently (and resists detonation more so in real life situations) you can increase how much boost and fuel you're injecting without blowing shit up, effectively increasing power output.
BTW, most race gas contains oxygenates, if not all nowadays (even leaded...).
Joel Baldridge, ASE Certified Master Technician, Audi Certified Expert Technician
Originally posted by thedawg Note: Toluene and racegas are useful on a TURBO CAR ONLY. Putting it in any non-turbo car on this board is completely pointless
Always qualify your statements. Build a high compression engine and the extra octane would be helpful.
I did qualify my statement. Nobody "on this board" has a high compression engine that needs racegas.
If I ever see a high compression 420a that runs for more than a few months, and tuned well enough to actually need racegas, I'll make sure to include that setup.
Originally posted by thedawg I did qualify my statement. Nobody "on this board" has a high compression engine that needs racegas. If I ever see a high compression 420a that runs for more than a few months, and tuned well enough to actually need racegas, I'll make sure to include that setup.
Now I want to build a 13:1 engine just for the hell of it.
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