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Subject: "About Forged Piston and Rods" Previous topic | Next topic
gilee_8Dec-26-04 07:26 PM
Member since Jun 11th 2002
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#83855, "About Forged Piston and Rods"




          

I been reading and searching alot on this forum in the past 2 days.
Mostly on Engine rebuild related topics.

First Question:
And I see that some people said CP piston, or the other rod is alot better, and that's why VT step up to use them instead of the JE piston and rod.
is that true?
Coz I went to Howell Site, all they sell is JE piston and Eagle rods.


Second Question:
I don't know what compression ratio I should use? Stock is 9.5:1, and I read that lower the better for turbo. but what's the pros and cons for using lower ratio? (all I see is 8.6:1 in Howell, no 8.8, 9, etc)

Third Question:
If I use the LONG ROD setup, what is its Pros and Cons? I read and search and found out that long rod gives more torge, if so, why not everyone use it? any disadvantage to it?

Thanks guys!
Gil

~~~~~~~~Modification~~~~~~~~
Performance: MegaSquirt v3.0 Fuel & Spark, 8.6:1 JE piston, Eagle Long Rods, SPEC III Clutch, EVOIII B16G, FMIC, Aeromotive 1:1 FPR, Walbro 255HP, 680cc Injectors, 2.5" DP, 3" Magnaflow Cat, 3.5" Greddy EVO CatBack, Greddy Electronic EGT,FUEL,BOOST,A/F gauges...
Interior: Racing Seats, Metallic Interior, 15-Speakers System, Keyless, Dynomat Insulated, Neons...
Exterior: 1999 Body with turbo wing, Halo Projector Headlight, 4300K HID, 17" Mille Rims, GSX Calipers...
Coming Soon: Water Injection, Redo Undercarriage, Repaint Exterior


$240 For New Complete GSX Calipers Kit (Calipers, Bracket, Shim, Pad, Bolts, etc) Email Me If Interested!

1995 RED Eclipse GS-'T': Stage VI 20PSI
2010 Audi S5 Quattro

  
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Replies to this topic
RE: About Forged Piston and Rods, BlueMoonEclipse, Dec-26-04 07:42 PM, #1
RE: About Forged Piston and Rods, gilee_8, Dec-26-04 08:00 PM, #2
      RE: About Forged Piston and Rods, TeamDR1665, Dec-27-04 01:39 AM, #3
           RE: About Forged Piston and Rods, gilee_8, Dec-27-04 05:46 AM, #4
                RE: About Forged Piston and Rods, ryansiefring, Dec-27-04 08:08 AM, #5
                     RE: About Forged Piston and Rods, BlueMoonEclipse, Dec-27-04 11:21 AM, #6
                          RE: About Forged Piston and Rods, Blizare, Dec-27-04 01:05 PM, #7
RE: About Forged Piston and Rods, blckeclipse95, Dec-27-04 01:33 PM, #8
RE: About Forged Piston and Rods, Ark, Dec-27-04 02:13 PM, #9
RE: About Forged Piston and Rods, thedawg, Dec-28-04 05:22 AM, #10
RE: About Forged Piston and Rods, TeamDR1665, Dec-27-04 02:16 PM, #11
      RE: About Forged Piston and Rods, gilee_8, Dec-27-04 05:39 PM, #12
           RE: About Forged Piston and Rods, TeamDR1665, Dec-28-04 01:49 AM, #13
RE: About Forged Piston and Rods, VendorAFX_Manufacturing, Jan-01-05 03:24 AM, #14

BlueMoonEclipseDec-26-04 07:42 PM
Member since Sep 25th 2003
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#83856, "RE: About Forged Piston and Rods"
In response to Reply # 0
 Dec-26-04 07:43 PM by BlueMoonEclipse



          

First off

Its suposed to be That CP pistons/Crower (i say they are...at least the crower rods are) rods are a better combo than Je/Eagles...you do pay more (i have eagle/je in my 2.4 though since i got killer deal on em)...BTW how much power do you plan on running?

Second off

The reason we run lower comp for turbo pistons normally is to have more of a window for error (detonation) when tunning...and higher compression normally demands higher octane levels for sure..but also produces more power per pound of boost, quicker spool

Third

Long rod setup seems great..if i were staying 2.0 i would have rebuilt long rod...think several people on the board run long rod ...look in the main section of 2gnt under reviews and you will find what you need

http://www.2gnt.com/nuke/modules.php?name=Reviews&rop=showcontent&id=111


vote for your choice of body style for Bluie!! http://www.cardomain.com/id/bluemooneclipse

  
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gilee_8Dec-26-04 08:00 PM
Member since Jun 11th 2002
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#83857, "RE: About Forged Piston and Rods"
In response to Reply # 1



          

if I do the rebuilt, I will go up to 14-15PSI.

Well, coz I looked into Howell, all I see is JE and Eagle? if I do go for CP and Crower, where can I go? and should I get CP and Crower?

So there are no disadvantage of running LONG ROD setup?

Gil

~~~~~~~~Modification~~~~~~~~
Performance: MegaSquirt v3.0 Fuel & Spark, 8.6:1 JE piston, Eagle Long Rods, SPEC III Clutch, EVOIII B16G, FMIC, Aeromotive 1:1 FPR, Walbro 255HP, 680cc Injectors, 2.5" DP, 3" Magnaflow Cat, 3.5" Greddy EVO CatBack, Greddy Electronic EGT,FUEL,BOOST,A/F gauges...
Interior: Racing Seats, Metallic Interior, 15-Speakers System, Keyless, Dynomat Insulated, Neons...
Exterior: 1999 Body with turbo wing, Halo Projector Headlight, 4300K HID, 17" Mille Rims, GSX Calipers...
Coming Soon: Water Injection, Redo Undercarriage, Repaint Exterior


$240 For New Complete GSX Calipers Kit (Calipers, Bracket, Shim, Pad, Bolts, etc) Email Me If Interested!

1995 RED Eclipse GS-'T': Stage VI 20PSI
2010 Audi S5 Quattro

  
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TeamDR1665Dec-27-04 01:39 AM
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#83860, "RE: About Forged Piston and Rods"
In response to Reply # 2

          

Basically, Gil, I think the best set up for you would be to go with the JEs and Eagles. Everyone agrees they're a good combo to better than 400hp and, if you tune it right, possibly more. It's not like you're considering Wisecos on stock rods here. JEs & Eagles will do you right.

Stock CR is 9.6:1, but close enough. If you drop the CR to the 8.8 or whatever, you will just be able to run higher boost levels safely. This would be a good idea for you. You could do some initial tuning and then just enjoy driving the car.

Long rod? I can't say about that one. It sounds like fun, but I've only seen a couple people talk about doing it. Apparently it results in greater torque, but in your situation, don't you want the simplest solution that will allow you to worry the least about the car?

  
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gilee_8Dec-27-04 05:46 AM
Member since Jun 11th 2002
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#83868, "RE: About Forged Piston and Rods"
In response to Reply # 3



          

Originally posted by DR1665
Basically, Gil, I think the best set up for you would be to go with the JEs and Eagles. Everyone agrees they're a good combo to better than 400hp and, if you tune it right, possibly more. It's not like you're considering Wisecos on stock rods here. JEs & Eagles will do you right. Stock CR is 9.6:1, but close enough. If you drop the CR to the 8.8 or whatever, you will just be able to run higher boost levels safely. This would be a good idea for you. You could do some initial tuning and then just enjoy driving the car. Long rod? I can't say about that one. It sounds like fun, but I've only seen a couple people talk about doing it. Apparently it results in greater torque, but in your situation, don't you want the simplest solution that will allow you to worry the least about the car?


THanks alot DR1665!

I think I will go for the 8.6:1 ratio. because I was just wondering. Everyone is saying use CR of 8.8:1 but all I see is 8.6:1 in HOWELL website! is 8.6:1 & 8.8:1 is still the same?

I like the way you put it! "Apparently it results in greater torque, but in your situation, don't you want the simplest solution that will allow you to worry the least about the car?" Yes I do! I guess you know me better! I want more power and mod the car more! but at the same time, I want my car to be worry free (if possible)

So I guess Long Rod is good in some ways, but just too new for people to be sure if it's WORRY FREE!

~~~~~~~~Modification~~~~~~~~
Performance: MegaSquirt v3.0 Fuel & Spark, 8.6:1 JE piston, Eagle Long Rods, SPEC III Clutch, EVOIII B16G, FMIC, Aeromotive 1:1 FPR, Walbro 255HP, 680cc Injectors, 2.5" DP, 3" Magnaflow Cat, 3.5" Greddy EVO CatBack, Greddy Electronic EGT,FUEL,BOOST,A/F gauges...
Interior: Racing Seats, Metallic Interior, 15-Speakers System, Keyless, Dynomat Insulated, Neons...
Exterior: 1999 Body with turbo wing, Halo Projector Headlight, 4300K HID, 17" Mille Rims, GSX Calipers...
Coming Soon: Water Injection, Redo Undercarriage, Repaint Exterior


$240 For New Complete GSX Calipers Kit (Calipers, Bracket, Shim, Pad, Bolts, etc) Email Me If Interested!

1995 RED Eclipse GS-'T': Stage VI 20PSI
2010 Audi S5 Quattro

  
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ryansiefringDec-27-04 08:08 AM
Member since Nov 24th 2004
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#83872, "RE: About Forged Piston and Rods"
In response to Reply # 4

          

the only con to the stroker kit is you will rev a little slower. is see no others, even the price is the same now. correct me if i'm wrong.

thanks

Ryan Siefring
Located near Dayton OH, zip 45356
Student at the University of Dayton.

  
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BlueMoonEclipseDec-27-04 11:21 AM
Member since Sep 25th 2003
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#83883, "RE: About Forged Piston and Rods"
In response to Reply # 5



          

ITS NOT A STROKER...it will not lower your rev limit..it will actualy help with the rod angles....hmmm how to explain long rod

Ok here im bad with paint but this is all i could do in 20 min of lazynes

http://members.cox.net/pumbacomando/longrodb.bmp

THERE understand now??

a 2.0 longrod is still 2.0 not stroked to any other displacement....


vote for your choice of body style for Bluie!! http://www.cardomain.com/id/bluemooneclipse

  
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BlizareDec-27-04 01:05 PM
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#83890, "RE: About Forged Piston and Rods"
In response to Reply # 6



          

wow that pic owned.

I totally understand. emoji


I eat emo kids for breakfast

1995 Eagle Talon (SOLD)
72' SuperBeetle
72' Standard Beetle
56' Deluxe Beetle

  
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blckeclipse95Dec-27-04 01:33 PM
Member since Aug 10th 2003
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#83891, "RE: About Forged Piston and Rods"
In response to Reply # 0

          

Question: If you went with the long rod setup, would you have to check the clearance on the valves?Just to make sure that the piston doesnt hit at TDC?

USMC Semper Fi

  
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ArkDec-27-04 02:13 PM
Member since Aug 31st 2004
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#83894, "RE: About Forged Piston and Rods"
In response to Reply # 8
 Dec-27-04 02:14 PM by Ark

          

Originally posted by blckeclipse95
Question: If you went with the long rod setup, would you have to check the clearance on the valves?Just to make sure that the piston doesnt hit at TDC?

No. Look at the pic, it explains it enough.

__________________________________________
~Chris

forums.kaptainmyke.com/index.php?&act=garage&CODE=12&CID=8
- AGP CAI
- AGP EVM
- MOPAR Stage 1 ECU
- 500cc Injectors

And he wonders why he couldn't make her happy...and someone obviously hasnt moved on. lol

  
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thedawgDec-28-04 05:22 AM
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#83925, "RE: About Forged Piston and Rods"
In response to Reply # 9
 Dec-28-04 05:26 AM by thedawg

          

Originally posted by Ark
Originally posted by blckeclipse95 Question: If you went with the long rod setup, would you have to check the clearance on the valves?Just to make sure that the piston doesnt hit at TDC?
No. Look at the pic, it explains it enough.


You need to check the clearance on the valves no matter what piston you put in your engine.

The Howell long rod setup is supposed to fit just as well as stock.

I have also personally seen a Howell custom piston set that did NOT fit.

Don't trust manufacturers of custom specialty items to get it right 100% of the time. Always check your tolerances.

Originally posted by Dr1665v2
I will remind you that 8.6:1 and 8.8:1 CR are not the same.

They're not supposed to be the same. However, Howell sold a 8.8:1 JE piston as "8.6:1" for a long time. The model numbers and piston specs matched up exactly.

Now that Howell sells a custom machined domed piston for turbo applications, who knows what compression ratio it is anymore.

  
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TeamDR1665Dec-27-04 02:16 PM
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#83896, "RE: About Forged Piston and Rods"
In response to Reply # 8

          

Originally posted by blckeclipse95
Question: If you went with the long rod setup, would you have to check the clearance on the valves?Just to make sure that the piston doesnt hit at TDC?


Notice how he said there is no change in compression ratio? That means the piston does not go up any further, it just stays at TDC longer. This allows the combustion event to be more developed before the piston will go back down. On some level, this is like instead of the piston beginning to fire downward at the instant the spark fires, it sits there until the explosion builds up more pressure (think torque) and then it goes back down. I may not be right on the money here, but I know I'm on the concept. The pistons also come up higher in stroker engines, IIRC. The crank is "stroked" in both directions. Sort of how the displacement is increased by stroking. Now stop or you'll go blind.


And Gil, the simpler you make this rebuild, the happier you will be in the end. For the record, I will remind you that 8.6:1 and 8.8:1 CR are not the same. There is a 0.2 difference there. Functionally speaking, though, you're right. Not a noticeable difference. You should not have to have them custom made. Howell has this in stock (you know what I mean - they don't have to custom order them like mine). Get a mainstream rebuild done, have it put together for you by someone you know you can trust, then get back out there boosting the shit out of that car.

  
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gilee_8Dec-27-04 05:39 PM
Member since Jun 11th 2002
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#83912, "RE: About Forged Piston and Rods"
In response to Reply # 11



          

Thanks alot DR1665.

as of now, I cannot do any test or any inspection of my car's damage, since I am 65miles away from it (at work) so I will do the inspection this weekend (what a nice NEW YEAR EVE EVENT)

If everything goes well (which I hope) no cylinder wall damage, no bearing damage, nothing is damaged except the piston and rings.

Then I can get the long rod rebuilt kit from Howell (8.6:1 CR)
Then I can leave my engine block in there, hone it and get everything back in there. (replace the oil pump as well and head studs)

Is the above plan good enough?
Gil

~~~~~~~~Modification~~~~~~~~
Performance: MegaSquirt v3.0 Fuel & Spark, 8.6:1 JE piston, Eagle Long Rods, SPEC III Clutch, EVOIII B16G, FMIC, Aeromotive 1:1 FPR, Walbro 255HP, 680cc Injectors, 2.5" DP, 3" Magnaflow Cat, 3.5" Greddy EVO CatBack, Greddy Electronic EGT,FUEL,BOOST,A/F gauges...
Interior: Racing Seats, Metallic Interior, 15-Speakers System, Keyless, Dynomat Insulated, Neons...
Exterior: 1999 Body with turbo wing, Halo Projector Headlight, 4300K HID, 17" Mille Rims, GSX Calipers...
Coming Soon: Water Injection, Redo Undercarriage, Repaint Exterior


$240 For New Complete GSX Calipers Kit (Calipers, Bracket, Shim, Pad, Bolts, etc) Email Me If Interested!

1995 RED Eclipse GS-'T': Stage VI 20PSI
2010 Audi S5 Quattro

  
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TeamDR1665Dec-28-04 01:49 AM
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#83919, "RE: About Forged Piston and Rods"
In response to Reply # 12

          

Originally posted by gilee_8
nothing is damaged except the piston and rings.

If the pistons and rings are messed up, chances are you will have issues with the cylinder wall as well. You might be able to scrape by, but this is the time to do everything you can to make sure you don't have to pull the engine for a lo-o-o-ng time. Personally, I'd yank it, have it bored over again and rehoned. You have to get new pistons (assuming the old ones are toast or even worse yet, stock), so go all out on this one. It's worth waiting a month or so (if you can) to make sure it all goes back togeher right. What good is saving a couple hundred bucks this month, if you're going to have to yank it all again this spring?

My car's been dead since Labor Day. It's going back together the right way this time. No more half assing things here in Arizona. Good luck to you.

  
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VendorAFX_ManufacturingJan-01-05 03:24 AM
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#84177, "RE: About Forged Piston and Rods"
In response to Reply # 0

          

Originally posted by gilee_8
I been reading and searching alot on this forum in the past 2 days. Mostly on Engine rebuild related topics. First Question: And I see that some people said CP piston, or the other rod is alot better, and that's why VT step up to use them instead of the JE piston and rod. is that true? Coz I went to Howell Site, all they sell is JE piston and Eagle rods.


We can get the other parts. We don't list them on the site because we try to direct people to good combinations and parts that work the best. With the Eagle Rods and JE Pistons we have never had failure that was the fault of a JE piston or an Eagle Rod. The fact is we have seen oil pumps fail, and seaze an engine, and the quality of the Eagle Rod was such that it bent, but never broke saving the block. That is the mark of a quality rod. On the JE pistons, the are kept abreast of the updates when new cam grinds, or valve sizes come out. As a result we have never had to fly cut a JE Piston when we have made a major cam lift change, other brand of piston have on occation caused us to pull the pistons and have them cut increase the cost of the change dramatically. JE and Eagle over the most trouble free installation and operation it saves the customer time and money in the long run. That is why we use them, and recommend them.



Originally posted by gilee_8 Second Question: I don't know what compression ratio I should use? Stock is 9.5:1, and I read that lower the better for turbo. but what's the pros and cons for using lower ratio? (all I see is 8.6:1 in Howell, no 8.8, 9, etc)


The differents between 8.6 and 8.8 is nothing. About 1% in hp. So on a 200 hp engine your only looking at 2 hp. On a turbo motor add an extra 0.1 psi over boost any you got that back plus more. If your going NA, go with the 10.5 compression (we actually run taht with a turbo as well) it will run fine on pump gas.


Originally posted by gilee_8Third Question: If I use the LONG ROD setup, what is its Pros and Cons? I read and search and found out that long rod gives more torge, if so, why not everyone use it? any disadvantage to it? Thanks guys! Gil


The factor doesn't use it from a cost stand point. In the aftermarket rods cost us all the same, as do pistons for the most parts. Shorter Rods are cheaper when mass produced because they weigh less. Consider if they only cost $.01 cheaper for the factory. More than 2 million 420A's have been built, and each has 4 rods making 8 million rods. 8 million pennies is $80,000. Some account is looking at that.

Visit the Howell Automotive Open House August 20th, 2005. The largest gathering of Chrysler 2.0 engines on the planet.

US Small Business Administration Export Business of the Year for 2003

Visit Howell Automotive at www.howellautomotive.com

  
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