Welcome to the 2GNT Forum!
Home Site Background Info & Specs Mods & Tech Info CAPS Part Reviews Donate 2GNT Stickers
Search Printer-friendly copy 2 Users in Chat
Top 2GNT Technical Performance/Engine topic #77123
View in linear mode

Subject: "long post...please bare with me..." Previous topic | Next topic
eclipsestyle97Jul-06-04 02:50 AM
Member since May 06th 2004
55 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#77123, "long post...please bare with me..."


          

I didnt want to post this question in the advanced tuning section because i know i dont post much so u guys would probably consider me a noob. so feel free to move this post if you want.

anyway heres my question. ive been reading on this site for about the past week on getting my head ported/polished/milled. so here's what i was thinking of doing. get a copper head gasket from ttiracing.com that is .022" thick. then getting my head milled .050". that or getting an oem gasket from napa and getting my head milled .068". either way that should bump up my CR to 11.5:1 right? so in esence i "should" be gaining about 8 percent hp? ive read on older forums on this board that milling is bad but then on some newer ones ive read it is ok. i realize also w/getting my head milled that much i have to buy adjustable cam gears to compinsate (sp?) for the timing belt being off. as well as upping my compression im going to get my head p&p. when i get that done should i just get the intake and exhuast sides gasket matched? and then have them "clean up" everything else? i'm also going to get my intake manifold ported the hell out of also. i forget to mention, i already have all of the basic bolt ons (intake, header, highflow cat, cb exhuast, udp, and jeep tb, and moroso wires and ngk's) oh yeah, and my motor has 76,??? miles on it. i know this is a long post but i have a bunch of questions...
could i get oversized valves to make up for lack of a hotter cam? cause im kinda scared to get a cam cause i dont want my valves smacking off my pistons. plus i dont have 400$ right now to spend on that.
if i do get a cam is there one with not so high of a lift but a longer duration to let air flow in?
i want to be able to run on 92 octane cause of gas prices or will i have to add some octane booster everytime at the pump cause my CR is high?
and the big question will i be able to run nitrous (50-75) with such a high compression on stock internals? is this safe-haha. im gonna check out my piston rings while im in there as well so they might actually be getting replaced too.
my goal here is to hit a low 15 w/out nitrous and a high 13 with. everything i have done to my car i have shopped around and gotten a deal on (it is all good name brands too). so im kinda trying to stay that way with this job. my dad is good friends w/a machinist so he's gonna hook me up emoji
oh yeah! one last question that really makes me feel like a noob! feel free to flame...what the heck is a 3 ange/5 angle valve job??? HAHA
i dont want to go turbo w/this car cause i know i will be disapointed w/the money i spend and the results that i will get, so that is out of the question. is this setup even gonna be worth it for a daily driver? and suqqestions, tips are welcome. im pretty sure some of my questions have been answered in other boards but i dont recal reading anybody w/the same setup that im going for and thats why im posting a new one. thanks!

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Replies to this topic
RE: long post...please bare with me..., EclipsedChef, Jul-06-04 10:24 AM, #1
RE: long post...please bare with me..., TeamDR1665, Jul-06-04 11:25 AM, #2
RE: long post...please bare with me..., Uberingram, Jul-06-04 11:29 AM, #3
RE: long post...please bare with me..., eclipsestyle97, Jul-07-04 02:08 AM, #4
Guys read this., Jay F, Jul-06-04 01:57 PM, #5
RE: Guys read this., grain, Jul-06-04 02:19 PM, #6

EclipsedChefJul-06-04 10:24 AM
Old School 2GNTer
987 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#77143, "RE: long post...please bare with me..."
In response to Reply # 0


          

number one, i had a horrible time with a milled head(.050) and i could never get the timing on correctly. If you plan on nitro and 13's i would go for the forged internals before i mill the head. Just my 2 cents


Aem Cold Air AFX 55mm TB
Fidanza Cam Gears NGK Wires
AFX UDP Greddy Header
Gutted Cat Greddy Evo Catback
Energy Suspension MMI Eibach Sportlines
Tokico Blues...always more to come

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

TeamDR1665Jul-06-04 11:25 AM
Donating 2GNT member
14692 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#77145, "RE: long post...please bare with me..."
In response to Reply # 0
Jul-06-04 11:26 AM by DR1665

          

Originally posted by eclipsestyle97
ive been reading on this site for about the past week on getting my head ported/polished/milled.


A great start. emoji

Originally posted by eclipsestyle97
get a copper head gasket from ttiracing.com that is .022" thick. then getting my head milled .050". that or getting an oem gasket from napa and getting my head milled .068".


Copied directly from another post I made a few weeks ago...
This taken from FierroRacing.com, who is doing the race port on my head right now for ERT...

This is what it looks like when you have the head milled .040 to raise compression. This the intake valve and the edge of the combustion chamber, I would say this is the most you an safely mill the head and still have about .005 more to mill if you want to have the head milled for straightness again.

Originally posted by eclipsestyle97
either way that should bump up my CR to 11.5:1 right?


You might have this right. Personally, I consider milling the head to raise compresssion a slacker's way of doing things. There is no substitute for a proper rebuild. If you can't afford it, hey, you can't afford it. You gotta do what you gotta do, right?

Originally posted by eclipsestyle97
so in esence i "should" be gaining about 8 percent hp?


Just about. You have the right percentages. emoji

Originally posted by eclipsestyle97
ive read on older forums on this board that milling is bad but then on some newer ones ive read it is ok. i realize also w/getting my head milled that much i have to buy adjustable cam gears to compensate for the timing belt being off.


Yes. Yes. Yes.

Originally posted by eclipsestyle97
as well as upping my compression im going to get my head p&p. when i get that done should i just get the intake and exhuast sides gasket matched? and then have them "clean up" everything else?


I highly recommend talking to anyone at ERT. www.exileracing.com They can walk you through everything you need to know and get you no the right path.

Originally posted by eclipsestyle97
i'm also going to get my intake manifold ported the hell out of also.


Contradictory here bro. You port the hell out of the manifold, but then you gasket match it? I'm trying to put together a GB for getting the upper half of the manifold ported to accept a larger TB and the lower runners cleaned up with the injector humps milled away. You can see what I'm talking about at www.FierroRacing.com. Eddy's done some testing and research into this port job and it looks to be a good deal.

Originally posted by eclipsestyle97
could i get oversized valves to make up for lack of a hotter cam? cause im kinda scared to get a cam cause i dont want my valves smacking off my pistons. plus i dont have 400$ right now to spend on that. if i do get a cam is there one with not so high of a lift but a longer duration to let air flow in?


Not sure on oversized valves compensating for a hotter cam. Sounds too good to be true, but I can see why you would think it. Mill the shit out of your head though, and even OEM valves should begin to give the hig five of death to the pistons (or vice versa). Intersting technical question about duration and lift though. There's a cam discussion thread in Advanced Tuning which compares the specs of several popular cams. It's a long read, but you should be able to spot the parts where specs are posted.

Originally posted by eclipsestyle97
i want to be able to run on 92 octane cause of gas prices or will i have to add some octane booster everytime at the pump cause my CR is high?


Yes. You will have to use the higher octane gas. If you manage to pull off 11.5:1 you're looking at needing more than just 92 man. COuld be close. However, I'm running 10.5:1 with the AFX/R ECU (which requires 93) and the best I can get here in Phoenix is 91. I've been using it for a year and no knock yet.

Originally posted by eclipsestyle97
and the big question will i be able to run nitrous (50-75) with such a high compression on stock internals? is this safe-haha. im gonna check out my piston rings while im in there as well so they might actually be getting replaced too.


You can run a 50-75 right now, assuming your engine is strong and has good compression numbers. From what I've read, higher CR motors respond well to the juice, so this shouldn't be a problem. Why just check out the rings? Buy a new set, pull the block, have it honed, and know they're good.

Originally posted by eclipsestyle97
my goal here is to hit a low 15 w/out nitrous and a high 13 with.


Goals are good. You're fairly realistic on the NA goal. This will require a lot of practice man. You need to be able to drive like a machine to pull off consistant low 15s NA in these cars (and if you're an auto, forget about this one). I don't think you'll get the 13s on the bottle with a 75 shot. Probably more like lower 14s actually, but this is where you start getting into driver skill variances and all that.

Originally posted by eclipsestyle97
everything i have done to my car i have shopped around and gotten a deal on (it is all good name brands too). so im kinda trying to stay that way with this job. my dad is good friends w/a machinist so he's gonna hook me up emoji


Smart move shopping around. Having machinist friends are good, but having experienced machinist friends (specific to your application) is even better. While a domestic muscle car shop may be capable of doing any port job, they don't work on the same engines, so they may not be able to do the best job. Porting on a specific output engines like ours is best done by someone who's experienced with how our engine flows imo.

Originally posted by eclipsestyle97
oh yeah! one last question that really makes me feel like a noob! feel free to flame...what the heck is a 3 ange/5 angle valve job???


You no0b. You could've thrown this into Google and got a million answers. emoji It refers to the number of different angles cut into the valve and valve seat. They cut matching angles into the back of the valve face and the seat in the head that the valve closes against. These cuts allow the seal to be closed better, but also to ensure uniform air/fuel flow into the combustion chamber. The more angles, or cuts, made, the better the seal and smoother the flow. You got your 3 and 5 angles, then there's the full radius, where they match both surfaces entirely to give the best seal and flow possible. I've got a 5 angle and was told that a full radius would be great, but it wouldn't do a whole lot more for my setup.

Originally posted by eclipsestyle97
i dont want to go turbo w/this car cause i know i will be disapointed w/the money i spend and the results that i will get, so that is out of the question.


Where the hell did you hear that one? I am one of the biggest advocates of all motor out there and I can tell you, I've put close to $5,000 into my engine alone and I'll be lucky if I can hang with a stock turbo car. Anyone running 7psi on a stage 2 kit will walk me like a little bitch. You will not be disappointed with a turbo kit. They are faster and will always be faster.

Originally posted by eclipsestyle97
is this setup even gonna be worth it for a daily driver? and suqqestions, tips are welcome. im pretty sure some of my questions have been answered in other boards but i dont recal reading anybody w/the same setup that im going for and thats why im posting a new one. thanks!


Anything over 10.5:1 and you're going to have a hard time tuning the car for daily driving. Especially with a milled head like that. If I were you (and I was last year), I'd pass on the heavy duty milling of the head. I suggest you look into revising your budget to get 10.5:1 CR pistons (you can even reuse the OEM rods if you're not looking to break 300hp anytime soon). This will give you an improvement in overall horsepower (~4%), respond well to N20, won't force you away from ever going turbo, and will respond well to headwork. 10.5:1 is a great place to be. Get your head a street port and maybe a 3 angle. Then have your manifold ported. This will get you a solid bottom end that you could likley run a 100-125 shot on (correct me if I'm wrong bottle guys), a head that will make the most use of your intake/exhaust bolt ons and give you a nice ride. You would still be able to go turbo some day in the future when you see the light.

Reading up in here is a great place to start. I took the time to break this up and answer everything I could because I could tell you did your own research into things. Smart man. Welcome to the board... emoji

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
UberingramJul-06-04 11:29 AM
Donating 2GNT member
10001 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#77146, "RE: long post...please bare with me..."
In response to Reply # 2


          

Originally posted by DR1665
Where the hell did you hear that one? I am one of the biggest advocates of all motor out there and I can tell you, I've put close to $5,000 into my engine alone and I'll be lucky if I can hang with a stock turbo car. Anyone running 7psi on a stage 2 kit will walk me like a little bitch. You will not be disappointed with a turbo kit. They are faster and will always be faster


Eh, maybe for these cars. All motor is a noble goal but it's an uphill battle but for some people it's the challenge that makes the goals reached worthwile. emoji

__________________________________________
~Chris
03 SRT-4

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
eclipsestyle97Jul-07-04 02:08 AM
Member since May 06th 2004
55 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#77193, "RE: long post...please bare with me..."
In response to Reply # 2


          

hey thanks alot for all the input! that mighta been your post i got those numbers from. i have those things memorized-haha. id love to go with high comp pistons but unfortunatly dont have 400 bucks to shove out on them right now. anyway wanna sell me some for 250 bucks? lol. i got another question. if i did stumble across some new pistons and rods, then invested in some titanium valves and valve springs would i be able to hold 150 shot of happy gas? cause that would kick ass-haha. does anyone havea rough estimate of how much a 5 angle job would cost along with a p&p and mill? cause ive been asking around and i was told to go to a diff machine shop then my dad knows. ive heard they are really good. thanks
-adam

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Jay FJul-06-04 01:57 PM
Member since May 18th 2004
23 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#77158, "Guys read this."
In response to Reply # 0


          

Hear me out guys, read what I think he should do, I'll explain....

Milling the cylinder head isnt bad, but too much can hurt timing, if too much even cam gears wont be able to get the car to respond at best, they only offer 10 increments adv or ret(my car's cams are little retard side cause of milling)so watch out!. If you are going to go ahead and pull your pistons out to look at the piston rings, just go aftermarket pistons and raise comp there, mill the head .010 or .020 thousands just to flatten the surface and also to get some compression. I have somewhere between 10.5:1 and 11:1 comp ratio and I barely survive on 91 octane in AZ (wiseco 10.5:1 and shaved cylinder head). Now for the P&P the head, carefull, you said you want streetable, so tell that to your head porter. Being honest with your setup is the key to making power, tell your head porter straight up and say "Hey Mr.whatever, I want something done to my cylinder head, I want it to be streetable but to get some power out of it, like maybe 5 or 10 hp, what can you do?". Most likely he'll ask about your setup you have or plan on going to do and he'll do something about the ports that'll match your needs, he'll even machine it if your telling him your gettin step up cams. Most likely tho, they'll just do a vavle job, match port the intake and exhaust and tell yah to raise compression, cause there isnt much to be done anyways to these heads, if the claims are true that our heads are straight off of "lotus" engines. Valve job , 3 or 5 angle doesnt matter, more the better, will help unshrouding (tulip shape airflow around the valve flowing more air) at its earliest lift of the vavle, !!!THAT RIGHT THERE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT MACHINING WORK FOR 4 VALVE HEADS!!!! Think about it, your intake valve starts to open, then to .080 thousands lift , then .100, then .150 and soo on to max lift, then it makes its way back down through those numbers and then close. If the valves are going to open most of the time overall at those lifts, you'll flow much better overall with valve job!. Porting will help airflow at more higher lifts or even to max lift in most cases, however, your trading velocity for volume, meaning if your going to do some extreme porting head work, gotta rev Higher to keep up the velocity. Your also going to need your "Combination (exhause side mods, intake side mods, cams)" to work at high RPM and you'll need to have a car that "CAN" get to higher RPMs, you're screwed if you got a head ported for 7-10K RPM flow range with stock cams,tb,intake mani. Car cant breathe at higher RPM's cause of stock mods, and cant flow cause of super ported heads, lose-lose combo =(. From what I've read you wanted to keep your Street RPMs, correct? for streetability? (Low to midrange RPMs), and I doubt your all "close to stock power" mods can flow serious amounts of air at higher RPMs. You can machine the ports (valve pocket area) maybe alittle bigger to help unshrouding, but I doubt you or you're head porter has access to a flowbench (or afford to get your head flowed) to see how well your flowing with the porting hes done at and lookin at results at various lifts. As for Valves ,I have no clue about bigger valves, however....heres something to think about. Another best way to get unshrouding is to bore bigger on your cylinder bores. Valves wont flow well when you have it right next to the cylinder walls or head gasket, so you should bore bigger, like .020 or .040 thousands over. Hey does this sound familier to anyone? yup, its from F1 racing (I think of those cars the kings of 4 valves all motors, or Hondas and Toyotas =P). Look under the head of a F1, the valves are miles away from the cylinder walls, all for airflow. Since they have 4 valves cross flow heads, and soo do we, we CAN apply that method of boring big for unshrouding!!. Now onto cams, with cams go with mild cams, (heck I dont even have aftermarket cams and my head is machined for em) there streetable and will offer power. I know they all cost the same (I think)when they offer in stages but there is a reason, an important reason. You're going streetable? go get streetable cams or stage 1, there meant for your set up and might prove better wiht a massaged head! You got some work done to the ports and you got the intake and exhaust mods for higher RPM power and flow? go get stage 2, your going to lose low end, but thats the nature of your beast if you have the setup for high RPM power/hardly streetable car, right?. Got a turbo you put on your car that was N/a before? get Turbo cams. When it comes to turbo and Nitrous and N/A cams, they is certain Intake/Exhaust Ratios (especially the cylinder heads), lifts might be different, yaddah yaddah yaddah. Thats why some people might throw in like Stage 5 N/A cams on there turbo cars that was originally N/A but it runs like SHIT!.. Stick with the cams that are meant for your Set up!. As to your nitrous question 50/75 shot? I dont know how well stock internals hold up wiht high compression and Nos, sorry, ask someone else on the board about that.

K, I think I've said enough, and dont worry, I've already tried some of the mods I just talked about, they're workin great! Valve job, raise compression, step up cams, (and if you can, bore bigger for your cylinders) throw those in the mix of your setup. You will definatly have a "streetable" car and still hit low 15's (maybe 14's). When it comes to makin a street/strip or full blown race car, match the combination for the nature your car is going for, enjoy!

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

    
grainJul-06-04 02:19 PM
Donating 2GNT member
2551 posts,
Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#77165, "RE: Guys read this."
In response to Reply # 5


          

turbo

  

Report This Post to Admin Printer-friendly copy | Reply | Reply with quote | Top

Top 2GNT Technical Performance/Engine topic #77123 Previous topic | Next topic
Powered by DCForum+ Version 2.2
Copyright 1997-2005 DCScripts.com, Copyright 2005-2026 2gnt.com
Generated in 0.075 seconds, executing 26 queries.