Why doesn't anyone try these to control cylinder temps?

When you think about it this "should" allow us to run higher comp. ratio or run more boost because of reduced cylinder temps.

Any insight on the topic?

http://bbs.asog.net/viewtopic.php?t=31236

1998 dodge avenger 4 cyl AT
Mods are:
Not enough

yes it should let us run more compression and boost.
armond runs coated pistons and i beleive hes gonna coat his combustion chamber next due to the last over heating problem he had,

coats are your best friend if done right...

You can have it cheap, fast or good. Pick any two.

If you want it cheap and fast, it's not going to be good.
If you want it cheap and good, it's not going to be fast.
If you want it good and fast, it's not going to be cheap.

When I do my build up everything will be coated. Probably by Swain Tech.

I love ceramic coating, but the reason everybody doesn't is that it's not the cheapest thing to do.

Una salus victus.
He will triumph, who knows when to fight, and when not to fight. - Sun Tzu

Michael J. Kulaga
e-mail: Michael_97RS@2gntDSM.zzn.com aol IM: MJKulga
http://highlander.dsmpower.com/

All motor in the making.

Injen CAI, P&P Intake Manifold, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Hooker Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, S-AFC, 8.5mm Magnecor Wires, Crane Fireball HI-6DI2, FU/RU/RL STBs, TSW Blade 17x7.5, Bridgestone Potenza RE730, Front KVR Cross-Drilled Rotors & Carbon Fiber Pads

To Be Installed: P&P Milled Head, Rear Disc Brakes, Rear KVR Cross Drilled Rotors & Carbon Fiber Kevlar Pads, SS Brake Lines, AFX 55mm TB (re-installed once exhaust is done, intake was outflowing exhaust)

Firefly:
Mal: You don't know me, son, so let me put this to you plainly: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake. You'll be facing me. And you'll be armed.

How would you go about doing it? Do you have to send parts out and all that, or do they do it while it's assembeld. Would a local shop be able to do this or are there only a few places that do it?

I edited to the wiki!

Insulating the piston tops, valves, and head with ceramic coating can have side effects. Keeping more heat in the combustion chamber helps with efficiency (and power), but the result is higher peak flame temperatures. Raising peak flame temperatures can bring you closer to the detonation point. Cooling through the cylinder wall, piston, valves, and head is extremely important for preventing detonation. The ASOG post mentioned that ceramic coatings reduce hot spots (which cause detonation). That sounds legit. So, I'm just saying that more insulation isn't always better. Insulating the piston tops is probably a good idea as the strength of the piston can be very important and material temperature plays a huge role there.

Corbin

'95 ESI-T
HRC+FMIC+ETC...



Gimme fuel...Gimme fire...Gimme that which I desire

Corbin
'97 GSX dressed like a '95 ESi

I don't know about that, the hot gas is going to be expelled and if the ceramic coatings keep the valves pistons etc. cooler, then there shouldn't be as much heat to transfer to the incoming air. The ceramic coatings should keep the heat in making combustion more efficient, and keeping the heat confined to the combustion chaber and not as much transfered to the head or pistons, the ceramic coating should cool faster. So yeah I guess you could raise the combustion temps which could bring you closer to detonation, but I think with everything being cooler to start with you don't get the heat from the previous combustion cycle adding as much to the temp.

Thoughts?

Una salus victus.
He will triumph, who knows when to fight, and when not to fight. - Sun Tzu

Michael J. Kulaga
e-mail: Michael_97RS@2gntDSM.zzn.com aol IM: MJKulga
http://highlander.dsmpower.com/

All motor in the making.

Injen CAI, P&P Intake Manifold, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Hooker Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, S-AFC, 8.5mm Magnecor Wires, Crane Fireball HI-6DI2, FU/RU/RL STBs, TSW Blade 17x7.5, Bridgestone Potenza RE730, Front KVR Cross-Drilled Rotors & Carbon Fiber Pads

To Be Installed: P&P Milled Head, Rear Disc Brakes, Rear KVR Cross Drilled Rotors & Carbon Fiber Kevlar Pads, SS Brake Lines, AFX 55mm TB (re-installed once exhaust is done, intake was outflowing exhaust)

Firefly:
Mal: You don't know me, son, so let me put this to you plainly: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake. You'll be facing me. And you'll be armed.

check out
www.ffwdconnection.com
they specialize in the 4g63 engine but can do the same kinda stuff to our engine and parts too. if you have the money this is the place to go.

dsm/mitsubishi service manuals https://www.mediafire.com/folder/5k14qlaulb9s1/dsm_mitsubishi

service manuals(my whole collection) https://www.mediafire.com/folder/ac51jwwa3g1n1/automotive_manuals

I'm with Mike,

It may make the temps in the cylinder hotter during the power stroke but you have to remember it's all supposed to exit when the exhuast valve opens.

Then you have the intake stroke with cooler air mixed with cool fuel which will lower the temps inside the cylinder again.

I just consider it a mixed-blessing. The heat that I am focusing on is the heat generated during the compression stroke and how it affects the rest of the process. From page 162 and 163 of Maximum Boost:

"One way to increase the strength of the piston is to reduce its operating temperature. Two methods seem viable in accomplishing this: ceramic coating on the piston top and/or oil spray on the bottom. With ceramic barriers, it is acceptable for charge temperatures to rise slightly as a consequence of less heat entering the piston. Bear in mind that charge heat is the cause of detonation."

"The rush to ceramic coat everything that sees fire in the engine is, in this writer's opinion, a bit premature. Keeping heat out of the piston is generally desirable. Conducting heat out of the chamber is equally desirable. I feel quite capable of arguing both sides eloquently. Two things are clear: First, if the detonation characteristics of the combustion chamber can stand more heat left in the chamber by ceramic coatings, then raise compression. Second, when Formula 1 engines use ceramic coatings and we are permitted to know that, we should too. Until that time, ceramic coat the exhaust port from the valve to the manifold face and get on with other details."

That book is from '97, so opinions may have changed since then.

Corbin

'95 ESI-T
HRC+FMIC+ETC...



Gimme fuel...Gimme fire...Gimme that which I desire

Corbin
'97 GSX dressed like a '95 ESi

Yeah I don't know how prevalant ceramic coatings were in '97, hell I graduated H.S. then.

I think of this too, with the ceramic coatings, you are suppose to be abe to run higher higher combustion temps without melting any important parts, and if the air coming in is colder you cam pack more in. Which means you better have the fuel for it.

Now is it really high charge temps that cause detonation, or high temps left in the cylinder from previous combustion cycles creating enough excess heat to ignite the mixture bofore the spark plug fires? Does the ceramic coating dissipate fast enough to eliminate this? eliminate I would doubt, but if if you reduce the chance of hot spots forming, then you have to raise the temp of say the whole piston to create detonation.

I can see the point of raisiung compustion temps could be a problem. And it's been a while since I took any thermodynamics. But I think the benifits outweight the side effects, or downsides.

I don't know about Formula one guys, but there are dragsters and other racers that do use ceramic coatings. Also depends on a rule book, I have no idiea whats allowed. Plus when you tear apart and rebuild an engine for every race, is it really cost effective to coat your parts every time you have machine work done?

To answer most questions, it comes down to the money.

Una salus victus.
He will triumph, who knows when to fight, and when not to fight. - Sun Tzu

Michael J. Kulaga
e-mail: Michael_97RS@2gntDSM.zzn.com aol IM: MJKulga
http://highlander.dsmpower.com/

All motor in the making.

Injen CAI, P&P Intake Manifold, Crower Stage 2 Cams, Hooker Header, GS-T Muffler, AFX UDP, S-AFC, 8.5mm Magnecor Wires, Crane Fireball HI-6DI2, FU/RU/RL STBs, TSW Blade 17x7.5, Bridgestone Potenza RE730, Front KVR Cross-Drilled Rotors & Carbon Fiber Pads

To Be Installed: P&P Milled Head, Rear Disc Brakes, Rear KVR Cross Drilled Rotors & Carbon Fiber Kevlar Pads, SS Brake Lines, AFX 55mm TB (re-installed once exhaust is done, intake was outflowing exhaust)

Firefly:
Mal: You don't know me, son, so let me put this to you plainly: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake. You'll be facing me. And you'll be armed.

>When I do my build up everything will be coated. Probably by
>Swain Tech.
>
>I love ceramic coating, but the reason everybody doesn't is
>that it's not the cheapest thing to do.

Swain tech is not that expensive and the quality of the coating is great. I was at the factory the service was great

One bad note, if you are sending used parts for quoting do the max that you can do to clean the carbon deposits before sending them to Swain Tech
They won't clean parts that re not coated, like rings, and when you see how nice the coating is you are afraid to scratch it while trying to clean the rings

Alain

one of the 2.4 true pionners

good discussion... i graduated in 97 too wOOt

03 srt-4 13.130@112.47mph (n2o, stock turbo, 10/2003)
now: 20g, portfueler, bpu+++ (track/dyno times tbd...)

i farted on your wiki

If you were worried about getting the heat out of the chamber then just coat the piston top, valves, and cylinder head part of the CC. This would allow some of that heat to be sent to the coolant through the wall and reduce the main hotspot areas am I right? But it only makes since if it keeps all the parts cooler then it shouldnt change the detonation characteristics of the engine plus by letting that heat out your just putting the stress back into the cooling system. Oh and I'm sure F1 did have ceramic coating but probably use some barium anthracite or something thats really expensive and not good for a road car, I do remember a pic of an F1 engine on a dyno those headers were glowing yellow and bright orange, oh how purdy it was!
Brent

I am actually with Corbin on this. Coating is good for making more power and saving pistons as well as other parts, but I know what Corbin means here.

That heat has to go somewhere.

Part of the function of an engine is dissipate heat. If you remove that ability, where does it all go? I know this is obviously part of how it makes more power, but I fail to believe all of the heat becomes effciently used. Afterburn? head Gaskets?

I am not an expert on this by no means. This is my amateur observations. Just pondering loudly.

05 Mazda RX-8
06 Lotus Elise

so ceramic coating the pistons is the best thing to do only to protect them? or only a certain section of it?.. i know armond had this done to his piston before his engine blew. also could certain machine shops or turbo building shops cc our pistons ?...

Michael 99gs
HRC Stage 2
Stage 3 process begins anyone got a 420a block thats not spun/head for sale?

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

Michael
99gs hrc stage 5000 SOLD...
2004 Honda Accord V6 (240 hp)stock
what other car should i buy?? hmmm
Car info & pictures at http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/520269