Hey all, the dyno results from this past weekend were somewhat disappointing. Mike Kojima (tuner) said its most likely because i need to advance both my cam gears about 4 degrees due to the milled head. But compared to before the head work, I gained 5-10 hp between 3000-5500 rpms at stock 0-0 settings. Above that, I actually lost about 5 hp. But when I advanced the exhaust cam gear 2 degrees, it brought it back up to stock (pre head-work levels) in the 5500+ rpm range. However, this was still 5 hp LESS power than I had before when I had tuned the cam gears to intake advance 2 exhaust retard 2 (only mods were AEM cold air intake, cam gears, and gs-t muffler).

Basically, my max gain was 10 hp, after adding an AFX UD pulley, Hotshot headers, milled head (10.6:1 compression), mild head porting, valve job. Is this because I have to tune my cam gears? My intake one is stuck so I wasn't able to adjust it at all. And has anyone actually dyno'd the AFX pulley? Any comments? Thanks.


eclipse804@hotmail.com
http://www.importvenom.com
Import Venom

________________________________________

2004 WRX - WR Blue Pearl
1997 Eclipse GS - Royal Sapphire Pearl

Cam gears probably play a big part in it but what have you done to address fuel? A 10-20% or whatever increase in airflow requires some fuel adjustments to get the most out of it. Tune your cam gears, get an adjustable fuel pressure regulator (very easy install if its a 95') and/or AFC and tune that too then be disappointed if power isn't there. Also how long ago was the 1rst dyno session (different place, time, spark plugs, oil, probably same fuel filter, auto tranny temps and who knows what other variables. dyno jet cant correct for everything). If you got 5-10hp down low from headwork you probably have a bunch of high end hp hidden in there (rarely does porting have a detramental affect on top end power yet increase low/midrange, seems like you'd have to make things smaller for that to occur, an impossibility without welding).

My guess: Your cam gears are tuned for low/midrange power, hence the strong mid/low range and poor top end. Fix that then adjust fuel. Car probably wont feel and might not be as fast (auto) but make for a better dyno chart.



Stan2gnt
Stan2va@aol.com
95 Talon 420A-Turbo
Former and future nitrous user

:farfrommugen:
Yes I still own a 2gnt.
Damn right I've been here longer than U
klassic_liven@yahoo.com

Hey Stan, I haven't addressed the fuel issue at all. I thought our cars run rich stock, so I figured that it would be ok? It was dyno'd at the exact same place, but it was 5 degrees hotter the second time. I guess the reason I was disappointed was that I hadn't realized the loss in top end, since the 3000 to 5500 rpm range is what I drive in most (since its auto). THanks for the suggestions, I might get an AFC one day when I can afford it...

eclipse804@hotmail.com
http://www.importvenom.com
Import Venom

________________________________________

2004 WRX - WR Blue Pearl
1997 Eclipse GS - Royal Sapphire Pearl

http://members.home.net/xtatdsm



thank God, I thought I was the only one who felt his car ran a bit slower after porting and milling the head.

I was able to run 15.8 @ 86 mph when I only had bolt ons (well I was running on my stock 14s rims and had no weight in the trunk, I ran 16.2 with the system installed, but as soon as I ported and milled the head, my fastest 1/4 time was 16.8 @ 82 mph. last week I went to the track and ran 17.1 @ 80 mph with my AFC set at 5% leaner all across, I then took the AFC off (while I was at the track) and got 16.8 @ 82 mph on my next run (60ft was almost exactly the same)

so far porting and milling the head, along with AFC (I always get CEL as soon as I connect the damn thing) seemed to be slowing me down, I am however working on getting cam gears and hopefully they will correct my problem !


Adel

Hmmm... that is interesting, and makes me wonder about my plans. Maybe the best way to go is, to get the head milled for porting. Leave the valves alone and just get a good polishign of the intake and exhaust passages. I know we had a good head design, I just didn't think we would do harm by a little port and polish.

What did you guys have done? How extreme of porting and polishing? Where did you get the work done? Do you guys have bigger TBs and ported polished intake manifolds? If not maybe the head is trying to pull more air in than the intake can flow.

Has anyone else done any dyno work on ported heads? Any experiences, lets share. Before I go and spend the money on porting work, I want to make sure it's worth it. Thanks all.

"To strive to seek to find... and not to yield."
Michael J. Kulaga e-mail: Michael_97RS@2gntDSM.zzn.com
aol IM: MJKulga Website: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/

Injen CAI w/ K&N Breather Filters, AFX UDP, 55mm TB, GS-T Muffler, FU/RU/RL STBs, Front NRG Susp. Motor Mount Ins., Red Silicone Hose Kit, 8.5mm Magnecor Wires, Bosch Rapidfire Plugs, TSW Blade 17x7.5, Bridgestone Potenza RE730 215/45ZR-17

And in my Room: Rear disc brake conversion kit, SS Brake Lines, Intake manifold 4 porting, Rear Motor Mount Ins. RRE FL Tie Bar(Well Almost), Slver Cadmium Plated KVR Cross Drilled Rotors and KVR Carbon Fiber Kevlar Pads (Well Almost)

Firefly:
Mal: You don't know me, son, so let me put this to you plainly: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake. You'll be facing me. And you'll be armed.

what were the final numbers by the way . u mentioned that u gained 5-10 but what was the final numbers


oRACLe
nGk Plugs ( watch out now )
AeM ShoRt RaM
UnOrThAdOx RaCiNg PuLLeY
BrAnD SpAnKiNg NeW TrAnnY ( 740 miles )
MoDDed EUrO TaIlS
SToCk 14" Rims ( gotta have these )
StOck MuffLer ( rust included )

Adel,

I may be wrong about this but if you had porting done then shouldn't you be making it a/f ratio richer because the porting would make it run leaner than it was stock? So instead of leaning 5% across it'd probably be better to do it 3% or something. Did you have an a/f gauge (or blue wire mod)? What did the read out say at WOT? Again, I could be wrong here.


-Avenger
99 Eclipse RS out of the shop!!

-"Easy Mac"
05 Mazda RX-8 (RR8 #88)
99 Eclipse RS 398whp & 372lb-ft

NOTE: This is going to depend on the amount of porting that you did to the head.

It's possible that you actually out ported the capabilities of the cams. If you have the ports opened up far enough, you could be slowing down the airflow into the chambers because of the increased volume. You probably don't have enough lift with the cams to actually allow the time needed to create the velocity by the piston stroke.

With the stock head, you will get gains with cam gears and adjusting the timing. I don't have these, so I don't personally know. I just have bolt ons for now.

Do you have a ported intake manifold? Bored TB?

The only other thing I can really say is......wait for the Crane cams to become available. I think with your setup and those cams, you should notice an immediate difference. My cylinder head is just sitting around waiting for the cams.

SEA97GS
NW.DSM.ORG
15.785@88.20MPH
IceMan Intake
HotShot Headers
Custom 2.5" exhaust
MSD 8.5mm wires
NGK plugs
MSD DIS-2 coming soon.

97 Eclipse GS-15.463@88.57MPH - RIP
92 Talon TSi AWD-12.927@105.47MPH

Hey guys, I don't have a bored tb or ported intake manifold. I think Stan is right on this...it doesn't make sense for it to only gain in the lower rpm and lose power up top. I think cam gears are definitely the solution. Mike Kojima (an SE-R tuner) said I should advance both 4 degrees, and then try maybe advancing the intake a bit more, and retarding the exhaust a bit to see if that helps. Anyone have any idea how much milling 0.040" actually retards it? But I also thought that retarding should help the top end, unless maybe it's retarded too much?

Adel, does your car feel faster in daily driving below 5000 rpm though? Mine definitely has a noticeably stronger pull, as shown in the dyno.

Also, I only got a mild port done, so it shouldn't be too much volume. If it was, then wouldn't I lose power in the bottom end, but gain in the top end since at such high RPM's it is pulling in a lot more air and fuel? Let's keep this discussion going...any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

eclipse804@hotmail.com
http://www.importvenom.com
Import Venom

________________________________________

2004 WRX - WR Blue Pearl
1997 Eclipse GS - Royal Sapphire Pearl

http://members.home.net/xtatdsm




Yup, my car seems a bit faster below 5k RPM. I also have ported and matched intake mani, along with bored TB. I think you guys are right about cam gears tho, maybe the only way to benefit from the extra volume is to keep the valves open a bit longer by advancing intake cam more than stock, and retarding exhaust cam.

anyone know where I can get my hands on a pair of cam gears for cheap?

Adel

Depends on your idea of cheap Adel...

Now I'm very curious to see these results with a set up cams. Adel you are waiting for Cranes aren't you? yeah maybe the bigger passages aren't creating enough vacuum pressur eto pull enough air in with the amount of time the valves are open. If this is the case then cams are the only way I can see to solve it properly, becaus ethe stock cam will always have the sames specs like duration, but with new cams that increase the tim ethe valves stay open you should be able to pull the higher volume of air in and takle advantage of the porting... What do you guys think?

"To strive to seek to find... and not to yield."
Michael J. Kulaga e-mail: Michael_97RS@2gntDSM.zzn.com
aol IM: MJKulga Website: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/

Injen CAI w/ K&N Breather Filters, AFX UDP, 55mm TB, GS-T Muffler, FU/RU/RL STBs, Front NRG Susp. Motor Mount Ins., Red Silicone Hose Kit, 8.5mm Magnecor Wires, Bosch Rapidfire Plugs, TSW Blade 17x7.5, Bridgestone Potenza RE730 215/45ZR-17

And in my Room: Rear disc brake conversion kit, SS Brake Lines, Intake manifold 4 porting, Rear Motor Mount Ins. RRE FL Tie Bar(Well Almost), Slver Cadmium Plated KVR Cross Drilled Rotors and KVR Carbon Fiber Kevlar Pads (Well Almost)

Firefly:
Mal: You don't know me, son, so let me put this to you plainly: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake. You'll be facing me. And you'll be armed.

http://members.home.net/xtatdsm




I am looking for a place that sells new cam gears below $250 or so

I am also waiting for Crane cams.


Adel

Bringing the post back to the top for teatinger to read and see if anybody else has some knowledge to share.

Adel, I'll see what I can find for you but.. no promises

"To strive to seek to find... and not to yield."
Michael J. Kulaga e-mail: Michael_97RS@2gntDSM.zzn.com
aol IM: MJKulga Website: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/

Injen CAI w/ K&N Breather Filters, AFX UDP, 55mm TB, GS-T Muffler, FU/RU/RL STBs, Front NRG Susp. Motor Mount Ins., Red Silicone Hose Kit, 8.5mm Magnecor Wires, Bosch Rapidfire Plugs, TSW Blade 17x7.5, Bridgestone Potenza RE730 215/45ZR-17

And in my Room: Rear disc brake conversion kit, SS Brake Lines, Intake manifold 4 porting, Rear Motor Mount Ins. RRE FL Tie Bar(Well Almost), Slver Cadmium Plated KVR Cross Drilled Rotors and KVR Carbon Fiber Kevlar Pads (Well Almost)

Firefly:
Mal: You don't know me, son, so let me put this to you plainly: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake. You'll be facing me. And you'll be armed.

http://members.home.net/xtatdsm



thanks a lot Michael


Adel

Well Adel, I came close to your magic number. $270.00 for a pair from Howell Auto of AEM Cam Gears.

I am going to make anopther post about Cam gears in general maybe something to think about too. Hopefully I'll get some input.

"To strive to seek to find... and not to yield."
Michael J. Kulaga e-mail: Michael_97RS@2gntDSM.zzn.com
aol IM: MJKulga Website: http://highlander.dsmpower.com/

Injen CAI w/ K&N Breather Filters, AFX UDP, 55mm TB, GS-T Muffler, FU/RU/RL STBs, Front NRG Susp. Motor Mount Ins., Red Silicone Hose Kit, 8.5mm Magnecor Wires, Bosch Rapidfire Plugs, TSW Blade 17x7.5, Bridgestone Potenza RE730 215/45ZR-17

And in my Room: Rear disc brake conversion kit, SS Brake Lines, Intake manifold 4 porting, Rear Motor Mount Ins. RRE FL Tie Bar(Well Almost), Slver Cadmium Plated KVR Cross Drilled Rotors and KVR Carbon Fiber Kevlar Pads (Well Almost)

Firefly:
Mal: You don't know me, son, so let me put this to you plainly: If I ever kill you, you'll be awake. You'll be facing me. And you'll be armed.

sorry to not let this post die, but i am doing some research on doing some major internal work. to those of you who have done this stuff, what was the final hp #, not the hp gain, but the final #. also, has anyone done any research on regrinding neon r/t cams, instead of aftermarket cams. ive heard they are more aggressive than ours, and i think this is what im going to do. i dont understand, on the main "stages" portion of the 2gnt page, it says gains of 30-50 hp with headwork???? how??? oh btw, im getting all my work done for free, in return for my stock head, after the work on my new head is done. sweet deal huh?

thomas

LAST EDITED ON 25-May-01 AT 08:34 PM (PST)

> i dont understand, on the main "stages" portion of the 2gnt page, it says gains of 30-50 hp with headwork???? <

Some people believe that that figure is slightly exaggerated. I think that you should talk with http://www.cnnpracing.com and http://www.howellautomotive.com and see what they expect as HP gain on ported heads (CNNP especially). They offer all sorts stages and options, it's a good idea to check out the websites and get an idea of what you want.

Oh, and BTW Neon Cams do not fit in our cars. The Neon Heads are turned 180degrees from ours, and they have different cams.

Good Luck,

Guy
RS_Guy



http://www.GTuned.com

-----
www.GTuned.com

Clinical insanity: Performing the same experiment with different results.

In this case we're talking about fuel and sprocket timing

Porting, cam gears, UDP and whatever else you have WILL make more than TEN HP - IF YOU TUNE IT!! My car doesn't feel any slower with all my mods but then again I'm running the AFC, my own porting and port matching, tuning, headers and cam gears etc... You also have to compensate for your PCM's mistakes.

Think about it for a minute - our computer will continue to run our car rich unless you change the fuel with some electronic trickery. It doesn't matter what boltons you install, the PCM will continue to compensate for the extra air with way too much extra fuel - thus bringing down HP potential. With the porting, your top end should be better with proper tuning. The only necessary things to tune by yourself for some decent results are an A/F meter(of some sort) fuel correction and EGT. Pushing them to the SAFE limits will yeild more power - but simply slaping on some boltons and saying this is dissapointing isn't going to do the trick.

Here is something else to keep in mind, you can only get so much power from our engines. WE are the ones who determine how it performs, how strong it is and where to put it in our powerband. Nothing is free which means sometimes there is a tradeoff. Drag cams provide top end at the loss of low, so when tuning predetermine where you want the most power to be, either low end torque at the cost of high RPM power or high rpm HP at the cost of low rpm grunt. My car acts like a screemer. It idles rough has some nasty timing and expells air through a 4-1 header. It is definitely more powerful than my friends GS-R without all the fansy cam lobe switchover and autmatic timing contol, but below 2500rpms it's gutless(so give it more revs). Being that I run sub 7s 0-60, I know my car is performing better than the day I got it, but I'm running more air and more fuel and all at my control (now I gotta get the ignition timing under control). Anyway some simple boltons will do a lot but you will have to experiment with some other cam gear changes to find where you want your power to be, and how much you want to make, and at what cost.

Anyway I'm just restating what Stan said. Give your car more FUEL and cam gear attention.

If I can, next week I'll drive my car up there so you can see for yourself. You have the power waiting, it just needs some TL

Skrilla
'97 Base Talon NA
"Technology: The Only Replacement for Displacement"
"Peace and Turbo Grease"

*Skrilla
"Honest officer, I thought you were trying to race me"
Talon: 1st 2.4L
'97 Prelude
'04 350Z

Originally posted by etx
Good luck man! Project 'STFU Brian your talon is dead meat' should be on it's feet soon!