So i have no clue what going on, im late posting it on here,so before i copy/paste my story, ill say Ive just changed the coil pack and the crank position sensor today. The car goes into what i believe is limp mode out of no where. I have a cel but its for the o2 sensor that I havent put back in when I changed my exhaust. Before it used to do it for a second and it seemed like just a rough idle for a few seconds then it would go away. Now i just started the car, tried to drive off and then it goes into a "limp mode" the engine starts sputtering, and seeming/sounding like its going to stall, and i press on the gas and its starts lunging forward and at some point all throttle response is gone and I can have the pedal to the floor and nothing happens. Need to figure this out ASAP. Im lucky I have off work tomorrow so I have at least a day to figure this out.

1997 Dodge Avenger ES - Sold
1997 Dodge Avenger (boosted) - Parted
1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse - Current car

Upstream O2? If so put it in ASAP.

Also, check your map sensor and timing.

No its the downstream o2 that isn't in, I said that in my post. Could that one cause problems like this also?

1997 Dodge Avenger ES - Sold
1997 Dodge Avenger (boosted) - Parted
1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse - Current car

That first video sounds EXACTLY how mine used to sound. I have a wideand and when it would sound like that it would go extremely lean like around 17ish. This happened to me normally after I'd let off the gas. This happened with multiple different new sensors and 2 different motors. Never figured it out and basically just figured it was the actual ecu but I have no final diagnosis to confirm that.

_____________________________________________
95TalonOwner on DSMTuners.com
Wes Tank on WiDSM.org

Sounds like theres an enormous hole in the exhaust somewhere for one. And yeah, to make a stock car lope like it has Crower 2s, you have to be lean as hell. Leaner than 17:1, from what Ive seen.

95 Eclipse GS: 10.5:1, Crower 2's and MSII
186 WHP - 150 WTQ
14.697 @ 93.85 MPH......Gone, but not forgotten
99 420A Avenger: Given to my sister
99 GS OZ: Sold
03 Evo 8: Family Car with balls

1997 Dodge Avenger ES - Sold
1997 Dodge Avenger (boosted) - Parted
1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse - Current car

downstream is just for emissions. Upstream is everything

___________________________________________



http://www.2gnt.com/quote_db.php?id=278

Outside of Corona: "That sucks, peace out..." (jamie walks away)... "Sweeet, what we doin?" -Zac
Tim's garage (prior to motor install): "Im gonna smoke real quick, that way if you fuck up I am already nicotined up" -Tim

Went out and bought a new map sensor today, took the old one off and it was oily and dirty, and i looked into the hole and it looked bad so started wiping as much as I could out of the hole and i dont know what it is but its some black oily crap coming out of it and the deeper into the manifold i scrape more keeps coming. Could that have been the problem? Could that stuff have been getting clogged in the sensor? I think Im going to take my other upper intake manny from my old boosted 420a and clean it out and put that one in the car and see if that changes anything, so Ill have a brand new map sensor and clean intake manny. I hope that was the cause of the problem. I cant imagine either way that that crap is good for the engine.

1997 Dodge Avenger ES - Sold
1997 Dodge Avenger (boosted) - Parted
1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse - Current car

This seems like the same problem i had, and kinda still have. I threw a ton of new sensors at it! Don't do that! Your wasting your money. One sensor that I changed that made the biggest difference was the IAC. It helped a lot. It makes sense to, if your going lean, the IAC is letting more air past than it should. Correct me if I'm wrong guys.

Unfortunately, my car still does this, but not nearly as bad.

Oh yea, that carbon and oily junk in your intake mani is normal for a car as old as ours.

After to talking to others on another forum, im going to block off the egr, just ordered the blocking plates. That should keep the intake manny cleaner, and ill be cleaning at least one of my upper intake manny's and putting it in with the new map sensor. And Ill also look into gett a new IAC, since it couldnt hurt.

1997 Dodge Avenger ES - Sold
1997 Dodge Avenger (boosted) - Parted
1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse - Current car

I also put on a brand new EGR valve it did not help at all. Just wanted to let you know. Have you checked all the codes? If there is no egr code then it is fine. Unless your blocking it for other reasons..If you do you will have a constant CEL. Also Vacuum leaks can cause you to go lean. Or your timing could have jumped.

Im not blocking it for codes. The only code im throwing is for the DOWNSTREAM o2 sensor that i dont have in right now. And im not worried about having a cel. I mean if anything come time for emissions in 2 years i could just throw it back on for the test correct?

1997 Dodge Avenger ES - Sold
1997 Dodge Avenger (boosted) - Parted
1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse - Current car

Correct on the EGR. Do you have a plug in place of the O2? Somebody mentioned to me that if there is a hole in the exhaust, that it can suck in air and possibly cause this. Don,t know how true it is. If you search for eclipse Rough idle, you can see what people said about mine. None of it worked though...

Let me know if you figure it out. Like I said my car still does it, Really pisses me off.

Fix your exhaust.

Fix your exhaust.

When I had flex pipe issues and my car was running like ass, kmow why? Because the WB thought it had 30afrs and the MS was flipping out. Same thing will happen with a stock O2 and ECU.

Fix your exhaust.

1997 Dodge Avenger ES - Sold
1997 Dodge Avenger (boosted) - Parted
1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse - Current car

There is a plug in the o2 spot on the new exhaust but the exhaust itself isnt fully connected, so technically yes the exhaust is open to atmosphere. When I replaced the cat I had to cut the bolts so its not bolted together its just held together by hangers till i get headers. For the most part the exhaust is together though, just a small crack between the 2 flanges. You can hear its open in the vids. Ill be working on it all today and tomorrow.

1997 Dodge Avenger ES - Sold
1997 Dodge Avenger (boosted) - Parted
1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse - Current car

Agreed^^^^^ But, I Still don't think it would cause it to run lean. Its a good point but the cat is pretty far away from upstream O2. Your O2 can also be bad and not throw a code. Also not to make this about me, but my car has a full, welded, leak free exhaust with both o2 sensors and it still does this, just not as bad.

Well just ordered headers, so I should be getting those within a week, ordered egr block off a little earlier today. So I about to go take the intake manifold off the car and clean it out, and put it back on with the new map sensor and see if that changes anything, otherwise if not, Once I get the headers and put them on ill see if the same problem is happening.

1997 Dodge Avenger ES - Sold
1997 Dodge Avenger (boosted) - Parted
1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse - Current car

Agree with all of the above, first and foremost, fix the exhaust. Sounds like you are already on this as you orderd a new header.

Also, if you want to keep your intake mani clean and free of carbon build up and oil, you should not only get an EGR blockoff kit, but also run a catch can. I have both the PCV and breather lines going to a vented catch can.

1999 Eclipse GS
Built motor
Hahn 16G Turbo w/ FMIC
Hahn Stage 5 Portfueler (270's & 500's)
Zeitronix Zt-2 wideband w/ 3.5bar MAP
3" SS Turbo Back
CM Stage 4 Clutch and Fidanza Flywheel
Baer Big Brake Kit

Pics of what the inside looked like.

1997 Dodge Avenger ES - Sold
1997 Dodge Avenger (boosted) - Parted
1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse - Current car

Ok so I cleaned everything out and put it all back in. I started the car and its sounded better but it idles at 2k now. Also when I press the gas it will go up and sound like its going to drop back down to a regular idle but it catches itself at 2k and stays there. Im sure this is something I did when I took stuff off. Could it be the tps? I took it off when I was cleaning the TB. This is the first time its ever happened so I know its a result of something I did so Im just wondering what it could be.

All I did, was clean the TB, took off the IAC and TPS, cleaned all of it. And cleaned the inside of the upper intake manifold, and got the little area where the map sensor goes, perfect.


So if anyone knows help would be appreciated asap.

1997 Dodge Avenger ES - Sold
1997 Dodge Avenger (boosted) - Parted
1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse - Current car

So new news, I took the IAC out and messed with it a little bit, and I started the car and it idled fine, but after about 2 minutes of idling it started running like crap again. The exact same way it was before. Im lost now.

1997 Dodge Avenger ES - Sold
1997 Dodge Avenger (boosted) - Parted
1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse - Current car

Your IAC is either junk, or the ECU is having to relearn the IACs steps because it moved, or the gunk you cleaned out flows more air i.e. needs less steps open to idle right.

Try resetting your ECU.

95 Eclipse GS: 10.5:1, Crower 2's and MSII
186 WHP - 150 WTQ
14.697 @ 93.85 MPH......Gone, but not forgotten
99 420A Avenger: Given to my sister
99 GS OZ: Sold
03 Evo 8: Family Car with balls

I dont think its the ECU because, I put in another ECU from one of my previous cars I had left and it ran fine for a minute then began to bog down and run like crap just like before.

1997 Dodge Avenger ES - Sold
1997 Dodge Avenger (boosted) - Parted
1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse - Current car

Alright I guess Ill "reset" the situation. Here is my current problem after everything is done.

Ok so I start the car, and it runs fine for about 1 minute, then after that minute, the rpm's start to go down VERY slowly, slow enough that you would have to watch them as they go down, once it hits about 1k rpm, the car just starts to idle very rough and "bog down" and seem like it will stall, it usually doesn't stall(has only stalled once on itself), it catches itself, and just keeps running like crap, and repeats the process till I turn the car off.


Since this started happening, what I have done to the car:
New Crank position sensor
New Map sensor
Cleaned the IAC
Took off upper intake manifold, and cleaned layer of carbon build up off
Took off TB and cleaned it totally of carbon build up covering the inside
New Coil Pack

New spark plugs(recently)

New headers coming in(to close up the exhaust fully)
EGR blocking plates coming in(to stop the carbon from coming in and building up

All the fluid levels are fine.

Could maybe the injectors be covered with crap from all that carbon getting inside? Could the problem have something to do witht the build up? There is just a obnoxious amount of it in the intake mannys, and im sure anywhere past that. I have no clue what to think is going wrong. I spent too much money on stuff and nothing being fixed, hoping I can get an idea of what is going on.

Newest vid after everything has been done.

1997 Dodge Avenger ES - Sold
1997 Dodge Avenger (boosted) - Parted
1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse - Current car

I guarantee that it is your IAC, if not then it is TPS. It is one of them

I dont know because when I first got it running the idle was sticking at 2k, and I took the IAC out, cleaned it a little more made sure it was clean and put it back in it idled normal again, just ran like crap like before. I dont know alot about how the tps works but I highly doubt the tps is the reason that the car will randomly run like crap and stall out. Maybe the IAC but I saw that it was working. I could see that just being another thing i buy a new one of and it doesnt fix the problem. Do you guys think that it has to be some sort of a sensor since I tried with another ECU and it still did the exact same thing as in the video?

1997 Dodge Avenger ES - Sold
1997 Dodge Avenger (boosted) - Parted
1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse - Current car

The Idle air control is a common problem. Cleaning it doesn't always work, sometimes they are just worn out and need replaced.

The TPS can make it run like crap. It will cause the idle to jump around if it is bad, especially in park at idle. It can make it idle high or low or even fluctuate. You can actually take it out, leave it plugged in, and start the car. Then take a screw driver and turn the little plastic dial inside. Just to test it. When you do this you should be able to raise the idle. Try it out and see how it effects your rough idle.

Personally I don't think it has anything to do with exhaust leaks. But that's just me.

No, I can almost guarantee its your EGR and its clogged. I base this off the RPM slowly going down. When the car starts up, it tests the EGR flow to make sure its there and working. What it does is slowly close the IAC, and open the EGR to the intake manifold. If the system is working, your idle should stay the same because you are getting air through the EGR. If there is no flow, your car will start to either idle very low or stall if its pretty bad. My car ran like shit for like a week after I did the EGR delete because it would still close the IAC looking for the EGR even though it wasnt there, making it idle at like 400 rpm.

95 Eclipse GS: 10.5:1, Crower 2's and MSII
186 WHP - 150 WTQ
14.697 @ 93.85 MPH......Gone, but not forgotten
99 420A Avenger: Given to my sister
99 GS OZ: Sold
03 Evo 8: Family Car with balls

1997 Dodge Avenger ES - Sold
1997 Dodge Avenger (boosted) - Parted
1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse - Current car

95 Eclipse GS: 10.5:1, Crower 2's and MSII
186 WHP - 150 WTQ
14.697 @ 93.85 MPH......Gone, but not forgotten
99 420A Avenger: Given to my sister
99 GS OZ: Sold
03 Evo 8: Family Car with balls

Alright Ill go grab that real quick and see what happens. Ill post back when Im done.

1997 Dodge Avenger ES - Sold
1997 Dodge Avenger (boosted) - Parted
1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse - Current car

I took them off, cleaned both and it did absolutely nothing. So tomorrow, I am going to go pick up a new fuel filter and see how that goes.

1997 Dodge Avenger ES - Sold
1997 Dodge Avenger (boosted) - Parted
1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse - Current car

I would check fuel pressure first before you buy a filter. Take the money for the filter and buy a new IAC. I am tellin you, my car did exactly the same thing..Exactly..I wish I had video of it.

1997 Dodge Avenger ES - Sold
1997 Dodge Avenger (boosted) - Parted
1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse - Current car

Yes the IAC can also cause it in normal driving. If it gets stuck it could be letting air in when it is not supposed to be, or it could be be closed when it should be letting in air.

When I would start my car it would idle just fine for a while like yours. Then it would start that loping crap. Also when i would start slowing down to come to a stop it would stall. Or if I was driving and put the car in neutral it would die instantly.

My buddy has his own garage and has all the nifty scanners and diagnostic tools. So we hooked it up to his comp. The scanner didn't pic up that the IAC was bad so we didn't think about it. What it did show was that when the car started doing that loping idle shit the A/F ratio went extremely lean. Our initial thought was that it was sucking in air from around the head or intake or something, not the case... What was happening was the ecm was trying to close the IAC and open up EGR flow, but the IAC was not functioning properly, so it would stay open to much and let air in. At the same time the EGR flow was also going in. Now you have way to much air flow. LEAN. I mean very lean.

If yours is going as lean as mine was, you shouldn't even be starting it.

Take my word for it or not. Maybe yours is something different but I doubt it.

Im going to check out the IAC again, im going to take it out and turn the key to the on position and i heard that if it is working you should see it move so Im going to try that real quick. I got a new fuel filter so we'll see what happens.

1997 Dodge Avenger ES - Sold
1997 Dodge Avenger (boosted) - Parted
1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse - Current car

Ok so now I have a minor/major problem. I just put the new fuel filter on and its was leaking just a little so i wiggled it around and tried re-tightening it and it stopped leaking, so I thought it was ok but I was still a little paranoid, so I started up the car, and let its run for about 10 secs and just cause I was paranoid I turned it off to go cheack and it had leaked a lot of gas out, so I am confused as to what I should do. I can only loosen and re-tighten it so many times. What should I do? The bolts were extremely rusty when I took them off. But that was just the part that was exposed to the outside the inside was perfect. Just wondering what I should do about this cause it looked like it had almost sprayed everywhere after I had run the car but I tightened the bolts all the way, or as much as I could. So I dont understand why it is still leaking. Any hints/tips/tricks?

1997 Dodge Avenger ES - Sold
1997 Dodge Avenger (boosted) - Parted
1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse - Current car

New crush washers on both sides of the banjo bolts?

Captain Caveman

96 RS Turbo 11.414 @ 119.62 MSNS, Crower 2 NA cams, BW366, 10.5 comp, UDP, 60mm TB, W/A intercooler, 3.55 tranny 567.9whp 430tq
97 RS NA 13.188 @ 103.87 MSnS powered 12.5 comp, Crower 3's and 219.4whp with 175tq
98 RS DD 12.5 comp on stock ECU, LTH, Crower 2's, Koni, GC, Hypercoil, DG hats
99 OZ 5sp Stocker 15.856 @ 85.97
99 GS stocker auto 17.7@77mph!

wiki home page:http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=bullettdsm

Yeah Im about to go get some new ones. Was using the old ones, and there one only one on each side.


Also I took out the IAC turned the car to ON and the IAC was moving so I know its working.

If this doesnt fix the car, I dont know, Im really not in the mood to keep fixing things on this car. Ive put a bunch of new things into it and I've been replacing stuff since the day I bought it, I might just get rid of it.

1997 Dodge Avenger ES - Sold
1997 Dodge Avenger (boosted) - Parted
1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse - Current car

Just because it is moving doesn't mean it is moving fast enough or when it is supposed to.

1997 Dodge Avenger ES - Sold
1997 Dodge Avenger (boosted) - Parted
1996 Mitsubishi Eclipse - Current car

Captain Caveman

96 RS Turbo 11.414 @ 119.62 MSNS, Crower 2 NA cams, BW366, 10.5 comp, UDP, 60mm TB, W/A intercooler, 3.55 tranny 567.9whp 430tq
97 RS NA 13.188 @ 103.87 MSnS powered 12.5 comp, Crower 3's and 219.4whp with 175tq
98 RS DD 12.5 comp on stock ECU, LTH, Crower 2's, Koni, GC, Hypercoil, DG hats
99 OZ 5sp Stocker 15.856 @ 85.97
99 GS stocker auto 17.7@77mph!

wiki home page:http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=bullettdsm

740 turbo brick. U said yer car ran badly 4 a week after egr delete. I was just wonderin. What happened in that week that made it run right? im havin the exact same problem and changin part after part and removing all possible vacuum leaks, such as egr (just temporarily to try 2 find the problem). So.. would my car possibly run better in a week or what did u do 2 correct it?

Im about to donate all the money i woulda spent on parts to this site if we can fix this.

i got the same problem guys... This is a big issue for 3 of us, ive already replaced the iac so dont say its that haha... Im gonna replace my o2 since i got one laying around, well see what happens.

Make that 4 of us. This is exactly whats going on here. I can't figure it out either. Mine throws an ignition coil malfunction code. I've replaced the coil multiple times, plugs, wires, I got a reman ecu from advance, and I replaced the fuel filter and front O2. Same thing throughout all of the parts. Every part I replace it runs fine for maybe a day or two and starts doing it again. Mine progressively gets worse until it just runs like it's on two cylinders constantly. I have a new map sensor to try and see what happens.

I do have a 55mm jeep throttle body with a Frankenstein iac that could be the issue so if the map doesn't work I'll try that next. Like many of you with this issue it's driving me crazy. I'm almost at the point where I'm about to sell this headache, so it's gotten really, really bad.

I CONTRIBUTED TO THE WIKI!
ah... turbo. I love the turbo, the boost, the speed, the sound.
and its all better when you do it yourself. cheaper too.

Also I don't know if this is just in my case, but when mine gets really bad I'll swap coil packs with the one I replaced and it'll run fine for a day or two. Maybe some of you guys with this issue may want to try that and see if it helps.

I CONTRIBUTED TO THE WIKI!
ah... turbo. I love the turbo, the boost, the speed, the sound.
and its all better when you do it yourself. cheaper too.

Ok so just to kind of get an idea of what we've all done so far.
Catalytic converter
O2 sensor
Map sensor
IACV
Fuel filter
Plugs
Wires
Coil
Ecu
Crank sensor

So what's left? Coolant temp sensor, temp switch, intake temp sensor, I didn't see if anyone has done the tps, cam sensor, knock sensor, wiring harness, vacuum leaks, other air leaks ( maybe manifold: intake or exhaust ), speed sensor, or maybe I'm going the wrong way with this and maybe it's a fuel issue like a dying fuel pump or pressure regulator or maybe relay.

Right now I'm at a loss, don't really know where to start checking. Since mine does this intermittently, I have to wait until it starts acting up again before I can start ohming out wires. I also ordered another ecu since mine is buzzing and started giving me feedback through the radio after I went down one of the roughest roads in Va. That should be in Thursday so we'll see how that goes. Until then keep me posted.

I CONTRIBUTED TO THE WIKI!
ah... turbo. I love the turbo, the boost, the speed, the sound.
and its all better when you do it yourself. cheaper too.

Has anyone logged "fuel preasures" during the time it starts to die out? When this issue started happening, was it a progressive thing, or did it just start this out of no where and hasnt gotten any worse/better?

Well I haven't done much but R&R so far. With mine it's real funky because it is intermittent and sometimes it would stop doing it, but now it just progressively gets worse until I pretty much can't drive it. I can tell it is running really really lean when it gets to that point since my car usually runs stupid rich normally.

However, when it does get to that point, I just pull the coil pack and throw on another and I'm good to go for a little while. I literally alternate between two coil packs every three or so days. Funny thing is when I pull the coil off, it tests good. I haven't tested it right after pulling it off but they tests good everytime.

As soon as I put the other coil on it runs fine for a couple days, starts hickuping, and progressively gets worse until it sounds like it's running on two cylinders and has very little if any acceleration.

I CONTRIBUTED TO THE WIKI!
ah... turbo. I love the turbo, the boost, the speed, the sound.
and its all better when you do it yourself. cheaper too.

Bump. I was thinking the other day that maybe it could be a headgasket or a sticking valve. Has anyone with this issue tried any of that? For me, sounds like I can hear my intake whistling when it starts acting up.

I CONTRIBUTED TO THE WIKI!
ah... turbo. I love the turbo, the boost, the speed, the sound.
and its all better when you do it yourself. cheaper too.

Turned out to be my iac bro. Take yours apart and clean it, dead serious. I replaced mine and it didn't help, but yeah I just cleaned it and it worked perfect. There's a guy that sells manual ones for like 35 bucks

Well I kind of have a hybrid iac since I have the jeep tb. Guess I'll pull it off and use the factory one. I can handle the loss in power to have this thing run right again. Thanks for the update.

I CONTRIBUTED TO THE WIKI!
ah... turbo. I love the turbo, the boost, the speed, the sound.
and its all better when you do it yourself. cheaper too.

Well today I finally got around to replacing the throttle body, iac, and tps, and so far so good. It doesn't seem to be showing any symptoms that I had before. I'm going to give it a few days to be sure, but I believe that was my problem as mentioned above. I guess just replacing the iac does nothing if it's so gummed up inside the throttle body, making the plunger stick randomly.

On a side note, the loss in power going from the jeep tb to stock is stupid. Feels like I'm driving a Honda. Guess I'll have to invest in a good aftermarket 60mm. But at least I won't have to worry about breaking down everytime I sit in the drivers seat.

I CONTRIBUTED TO THE WIKI!
ah... turbo. I love the turbo, the boost, the speed, the sound.
and its all better when you do it yourself. cheaper too.