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Subject: "10,000 RPM"

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420agreenvilleSC	Sep-20-09 10:45 PM
Donating 2GNT member 1527 posts,

#127816, "10,000 RPM"

I figured, what the hell, why not put this out there. I know our motors don't make power at that band, but, wouldn't it be fun to be able to rev to 10K? obviously this has to be done w/ MS

Are there any timing belts & valve train components strong enough to handle a 10K+ RPM rev, or is it even possible

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Outside of Corona: "That sucks, peace out..." (jamie walks away)... "Sweeet, what we doin?" -Zac
Tim's garage (prior to motor install): "Im gonna smoke real quick, that way if you fuck up I am already nicotined up" -Tim

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RE: 10,000 RPM, Moderator

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bullettdsm, Sep-21-09 09:43 AM, #1

RE: 10,000 RPM, Cyexmaster, Sep-21-09 09:20 PM, #2

RE: 10,000 RPM, 420agreenvilleSC, Sep-21-09 09:24 PM, #3

RE: 10,000 RPM, Moderator

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bullettdsm, Sep-22-09 12:34 PM, #4

RE: 10,000 RPM, 420agreenvilleSC, Sep-23-09 10:17 AM, #5

RE: 10,000 RPM, Administrator

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CODE4, Sep-23-09 01:06 PM, #6

RE: 10,000 RPM, Team

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DR1665, Sep-23-09 05:49 PM, #7

RE: 10,000 RPM, 420agreenvilleSC, Sep-23-09 06:18 PM, #8

RE: 10,000 RPM, Administrator

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Star Turbo Talon, Sep-23-09 08:30 PM, #9

RE: 10,000 RPM, 95baser, Sep-24-09 11:13 PM, #10

RE: 10,000 RPM, Raine883, Sep-25-09 02:58 PM, #11

RE: 10,000 RPM, Moderator

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bullettdsm, Sep-25-09 04:02 PM, #12

RE: 10,000 RPM, Administrator

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Star Turbo Talon, Sep-25-09 05:24 PM, #13

RE: 10,000 RPM, RoninEclipse2G, Sep-25-09 05:31 PM, #14

RE: 10,000 RPM, dalesmitsu, Sep-25-09 05:56 PM, #15

RE: 10,000 RPM, Administrator

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Star Turbo Talon, Sep-25-09 05:59 PM, #16

RE: 10,000 RPM, Moderator

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bullettdsm, Sep-26-09 04:03 AM, #17

RE: 10,000 RPM, Team

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DR1665, Sep-27-09 12:32 AM, #18

RE: 10,000 RPM, DSM-ZERO, Sep-27-09 12:40 PM, #19

bullettdsm	Sep-21-09 09:43 AM
Donating 2GNT member 2676 posts,

#127818, "RE: 10,000 RPM"
In response to Reply # 0

Originally posted by 420agreenvilleSC
Are there any timing belts & valve train components strong enough to handle a 10K+ RPM rev, or is it even possible

Yes.

Captain Caveman

96 RS Turbo 11.414 @ 119.62 MSNS, Crower 2 NA cams, BW366, 10.5 comp, UDP, 60mm TB, W/A intercooler, 3.55 tranny 567.9whp 430tq
97 RS NA 13.188 @ 103.87 MSnS powered 12.5 comp, Crower 3's and 219.4whp with 175tq
98 RS DD 12.5 comp on stock ECU, LTH, Crower 2's, Koni, GC, Hypercoil, DG hats
99 OZ 5sp Stocker 15.856 @ 85.97
99 GS stocker auto 17.7@77mph!

wiki home page:http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=bullettdsm

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Cyexmaster	Sep-21-09 09:20 PM
Member since Nov 28th 2007 324 posts,

#127823, "RE: 10,000 RPM"
In response to Reply # 1

Well I guess it is possible but;
1) will the power band drop before 10k?
2) Is this something that will shorten the life of the engine by a considerable amount?
3) Is it even worth the cost/mods/tunning/etc...?

Status- Need to do break-in...

Try not to challenge me, I'd rather tie up than lose. Either way you NEVER WIN.... - Me..

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420agreenvilleSC	Sep-21-09 09:24 PM
Donating 2GNT member 1527 posts,

#127824, "RE: 10,000 RPM"
In response to Reply # 2

i just thought it'd be freakn fun to rev to 12K

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http://www.2gnt.com/quote_db.php?id=278

Outside of Corona: "That sucks, peace out..." (jamie walks away)... "Sweeet, what we doin?" -Zac
Tim's garage (prior to motor install): "Im gonna smoke real quick, that way if you fuck up I am already nicotined up" -Tim

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bullettdsm	Sep-22-09 12:34 PM
Donating 2GNT member 2676 posts,

#127844, "RE: 10,000 RPM"
In response to Reply # 3

Originally posted by 420agreenvilleSC
i just thought it'd be freakn fun to rev to 12K

This is doable (though I think 12k would be overkill, but it would depend on what the engine is asking for) and at some point I should be looking into the needed set-up.

Captain Caveman

96 RS Turbo 11.414 @ 119.62 MSNS, Crower 2 NA cams, BW366, 10.5 comp, UDP, 60mm TB, W/A intercooler, 3.55 tranny 567.9whp 430tq
97 RS NA 13.188 @ 103.87 MSnS powered 12.5 comp, Crower 3's and 219.4whp with 175tq
98 RS DD 12.5 comp on stock ECU, LTH, Crower 2's, Koni, GC, Hypercoil, DG hats
99 OZ 5sp Stocker 15.856 @ 85.97
99 GS stocker auto 17.7@77mph!

wiki home page:http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=bullettdsm

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420agreenvilleSC	Sep-23-09 10:17 AM
Donating 2GNT member 1527 posts,

#127864, "RE: 10,000 RPM"
In response to Reply # 4

this thread fails miserably. mark's the only real response. this is the last bump

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http://www.2gnt.com/quote_db.php?id=278

Outside of Corona: "That sucks, peace out..." (jamie walks away)... "Sweeet, what we doin?" -Zac
Tim's garage (prior to motor install): "Im gonna smoke real quick, that way if you fuck up I am already nicotined up" -Tim

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CODE4	Sep-23-09 01:06 PM
Member since Nov 23rd 2003 2552 posts,

#127867, "RE: 10,000 RPM"
In response to Reply # 5

Why are you even bumping it?

---

2012 2500HD LML

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DR1665	Sep-23-09 05:49 PM
Donating 2GNT member 14692 posts,

#127873, "RE: 10,000 RPM"
In response to Reply # 4

Originally posted by bullettdsm
This is doable (though I think 12k would be overkill, but it would depend on what the engine is asking for) and at some point I should be looking into the needed set-up.

Totally doable. Of course, there's only one way to find out...

(That is, watch Mr Bullett do it.) emoji

My plan for Daisy had been to install MSnS and set the hard rev limit to 10KRPM. (Bottom end was balanced to 12K just in case.)

Get a decent street tune in place and then hit the dyno for the final, precision tune. I felt that the dyno would be the best place to tune for absolute peak output and to see where, exactly, that output occurred.

Once there was data reflecting where peak power occurred, the plan was to set up the MSnS soft rev limiter to begin pulling timing a couple hundred RPM beyond peak to obviously signal the over-rev. This would be followed by a hard limiter maybe 500RPM later.

The idea being: If, when 100% tuned, peak power hit at 9000RPM, the soft touch would start to pull timing around 9300RPM, followed by a hard cut at 9500RPM.

Of course, if peak power was somewhere around 8300, soft touch would kick in at 8500 and hard cut would be 8800RPM. No need to wind an already high strung mill out beyond what it needs to be.

So, assuming someone were to really go crazy with their flow work - aggressive porting, +2mm valves, double springs, titanium retainers (float could very well become an issue), SMIM/ITB, LTH, and 3" exhaust - they might be unable to realize the potential of the engine without winding it well above 9KRPM.

Always an interesting subject. This would be absolute rubbish on the street, but who knows where this kind of development might lead? Sequential turbo? Supercharging?

emoji

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420agreenvilleSC	Sep-23-09 06:18 PM
Donating 2GNT member 1527 posts,

#127875, "RE: 10,000 RPM"
In response to Reply # 7

THANK YOU DRIGGSSSS

___________________________________________

http://www.2gnt.com/quote_db.php?id=278

Outside of Corona: "That sucks, peace out..." (jamie walks away)... "Sweeet, what we doin?" -Zac
Tim's garage (prior to motor install): "Im gonna smoke real quick, that way if you fuck up I am already nicotined up" -Tim

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Star Turbo Talon	Sep-23-09 08:30 PM
Member since Oct 21st 2003 8331 posts,

#127883, "RE: 10,000 RPM"
In response to Reply # 8

rev speed is most dependant on valve train. Stroke is also a factor but usually Valve's are the first issue that comes up.

High quality springs are a must. Cams will need to be considered because if your not making power at 10k then your just free spinning to some degree. You will end up just causing a great of wear on the bearings ect and the motor will be short lived.

So to answer your questions....its do able.

You will need to spend a lot of money on Custom Cams and valve train.

Since no company makes camshafts that produce power that high, your going to need to design a set yourself.

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95baser	Sep-24-09 11:13 PM
Member since Jun 29th 2009 64 posts,

#127913, "RE: 10,000 RPM"
In response to Reply # 9

If you could get the motor to go that high.
Wouldnt forced induction help to still pull power?
I know the cams would give you some hell getting them to the right specs. But that would be a heck of a trip, just to watch your tach hit that high. WOW.

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Raine883	Sep-25-09 02:58 PM
Member since Jul 17th 2009 49 posts,

#127916, "RE: 10,000 RPM"
In response to Reply # 10

I almost think i you could rev to 10k a turbo would just impede exhaust flow at that point, and low rpm drive-ability would be lost all together. But as loud as our cars are revved to 8000k i can only imagine what 10k would sound like.

Why did i turbo a 420a? Why is your 4g63 smoking in a ditch?

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bullettdsm	Sep-25-09 04:02 PM
Donating 2GNT member 2676 posts,

#127917, "RE: 10,000 RPM"
In response to Reply # 11

Not for nothing but I already have run the NA up to 9k enough times, no problems. And that's with the heavy ass Eagle rods and big fat JE slugs. No big valve train specialties etc.

There is also an established reputable member on here who says he has gone over 10k on multiple occasions.

As for the Neon guys there are at least 3 off the top of my head who rev 9.5k +

Captain Caveman

96 RS Turbo 11.414 @ 119.62 MSNS, Crower 2 NA cams, BW366, 10.5 comp, UDP, 60mm TB, W/A intercooler, 3.55 tranny 567.9whp 430tq
97 RS NA 13.188 @ 103.87 MSnS powered 12.5 comp, Crower 3's and 219.4whp with 175tq
98 RS DD 12.5 comp on stock ECU, LTH, Crower 2's, Koni, GC, Hypercoil, DG hats
99 OZ 5sp Stocker 15.856 @ 85.97
99 GS stocker auto 17.7@77mph!

wiki home page:http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=bullettdsm

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Star Turbo Talon	Sep-25-09 05:24 PM
Member since Oct 21st 2003 8331 posts,

#127918, "RE: 10,000 RPM"
In response to Reply # 12

Originally posted by bullettdsm
Not for nothing but I already have run the NA up to 9k enough times, no problems. And that's with the heavy ass Eagle rods and big fat JE slugs. No big valve train specialties etc. There is also an established reputable member on here who says he has gone over 10k on multiple occasions. As for the Neon guys there are at least 3 off the top of my head who rev 9.5k +

Thats it....I cant resist.

No problems? Hows that Valve replacement working for you?

lol

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RoninEclipse2G	Sep-25-09 05:31 PM
Donating 2GNT member 2745 posts,

#127919, "RE: 10,000 RPM"
In response to Reply # 13

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon

Originally posted by bullettdsm Not for nothing but I already have run the NA up to 9k enough times, no problems. And that's with the heavy ass Eagle rods and big fat JE slugs. No big valve train specialties etc. There is also an established reputable member on here who says he has gone over 10k on multiple occasions. As for the Neon guys there are at least 3 off the top of my head who rev 9.5k +

Thats it....I cant resist. No problems? Hows that Valve replacement working for you? lol

LOL!!!

Although it wasn't the valvetrain that initially failed. It was the alternator belt that just wanted to be friendly with the timing belt.

Mine did the same thing.

Erik P.
Official 2GNT thread Hijacker
Some say that he's driven over more Covenant than he's shot, and that his grenades aren't where you'd expect them to be...
All we know is, He's not The Stig... But he is The Stig's Spartan cousin!

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dalesmitsu	Sep-25-09 05:56 PM
Member since May 13th 2006 986 posts,

#127920, "RE: 10,000 RPM"
In response to Reply # 14
Sep-25-09 05:57 PM by dalesmitsu

I thought DSM-ZERO would respond to this, I bet he's at this rpm range.

Thats awesome Mark you once had a 9,500rpm red line is this your current 2g the red one with the velocity stack through front bumper.

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Star Turbo Talon	Sep-25-09 05:59 PM
Member since Oct 21st 2003 8331 posts,

#127921, "RE: 10,000 RPM"
In response to Reply # 15

Actually it just happened to Yusef behic on his 92 EVO too.

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bullettdsm	Sep-26-09 04:03 AM
Donating 2GNT member 2676 posts,

#127922, "RE: 10,000 RPM"
In response to Reply # 13
Sep-27-09 11:17 AM by bullettdsm

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon

Originally posted by bullettdsm Not for nothing but I already have run the NA up to 9k enough times, no problems. And that's with the heavy ass Eagle rods and big fat JE slugs. No big valve train specialties etc. There is also an established reputable member on here who says he has gone over 10k on multiple occasions. As for the Neon guys there are at least 3 off the top of my head who rev 9.5k +

Thats it....I cant resist. No problems? Hows that Valve replacement working for you? lol

Lol, you can't let this easy stuff go by, huh?

Captain Caveman

96 RS Turbo 11.414 @ 119.62 MSNS, Crower 2 NA cams, BW366, 10.5 comp, UDP, 60mm TB, W/A intercooler, 3.55 tranny 567.9whp 430tq
97 RS NA 13.188 @ 103.87 MSnS powered 12.5 comp, Crower 3's and 219.4whp with 175tq
98 RS DD 12.5 comp on stock ECU, LTH, Crower 2's, Koni, GC, Hypercoil, DG hats
99 OZ 5sp Stocker 15.856 @ 85.97
99 GS stocker auto 17.7@77mph!

wiki home page:http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=bullettdsm

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DR1665	Sep-27-09 12:32 AM
Donating 2GNT member 14692 posts,

#127950, "RE: 10,000 RPM"
In response to Reply # 10
Sep-27-09 12:35 AM by DR1665

Originally posted by 95baser
If you could get the motor to go that high. Wouldnt forced induction help to still pull power? I know the cams would give you some hell getting them to the right specs. But that would be a heck of a trip, just to watch your tach hit that high. WOW.

Forced induction could potentially allow for power that high up, but the turbocharger would have to be sized such that you would have to really work it to get the car to do anything below, say, 4000rpm.

Using my GVR4 as an example, I'm all stock aside from a hacked airbox and MBC set to 12psi. Boost begins building around 2500rpm, by 3200 or so, I'm sitting on 12lbs, but soon after crossing 5000rpm, it runs out of steam and the next 2000rpm before redline are almost moot. Such is life.

This is where turbo sizing and A/R come into play. In order for a turbo to cover the deficiency of the engine alone above 8000rpm, the turbo needs to be larger. This means less power down low due to lag. You could play around with A/R independently between compressor and turbine (which would be reasonable to consider on a build of this level), but you can't cheat the physics of it all. Choose a smaller turbine wheel for quicker spool and you sacrifice top end, for example.

Cam profile design would be the key to it all, but having driven one of these cars to the 8000rpm range, I can tell you it takes a while to get there. Even if you had an ultra small, carbon multi-disc clutch installed with a feather-light flywheel, the sheer weight of the car it would be moving would result in being WOT in each gear for about, what, maybe 8 full seconds? Give Mark power to 10,000rpm and don't be surprised to only hear him shift ONCE before the traps.

Cool shit to think about, though. That's for sure.

And speaking of cool shit, if we're to the point of discussing advanced theory on the level of custom cam profiles, stand alone tuning, and frankenstein turbos, why not consider the other side of the equation - GEARING.

I've heard of 4G63 guys swapping in the GVR4 1st gear because it's shorter (since the GVR4 is like a cruise ship compared to a 1G). Shorter gears will limit your top end, BUT they make for quicker acceleration up to that point.

Everyone knows about the 3.55 Neon mod that lets you wind out third gear longer on the drag strip and reduces RPM while cruising on the highway, but if my memory serves correctly, I believe there was a 1.8L PT Cruiser sold in markets outside the US which had a SHORTER ratio than the 2GNT.

Think about that one for a couple minutes. If reducing your gearing trades ultimate top speed (which you use how often, again?), but improves acceleration, how would doing research into the already nigh-bullet-proof NV-T350 (maybe other New Venture manual transmissions) maybe lead to alternate gearing setups which would affect how an engine with a flatter torque curve performs BELOW 10,000rpm?

Food for thought.

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DSM-ZERO	Sep-27-09 12:40 PM
Member since Jul 01st 2003 62 posts,

#127953, "RE: 10,000 RPM"
In response to Reply # 18

The highest i took mine too on one dyno run was 9200

I could and would rev to 10 but there is no need too my turbo this season is not big enough to still make power at that rpm

My rev limit is set at 8500 right now

If you have the correct mods and a s372 or gt42 you could make power at 10k

also a bad ass set of cams would be needed

661hp & 463tq Worlds highest hp 2gnt soon to be the fastest

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