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Subject: "OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam" Previous topic | Next topic
Warmage12Feb-05-09 11:16 AM
Member since May 24th 2008
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#123888, "OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam"




          

I've been studying our cam profiles against other engines cams, that have the same L size and even a few engines that are smaller. And i had some questions i was wondering if they could be answered by someone with a lil more know how. These questions have nothing to do with telling me what cam will make more power, this has everything to do with engine dynamics.

Here are the stock cam specs for a b20b
Duration 234/236 Duration @.50 194/196 Gross lift with 1.75 .395/380

Here is a 420a's stock cam specs
Duration 222/220 Duration @.50 172/168 Gross Lift with 1.75 .324/.275

Here is an sr20 non turbo. (the last two specs are diff from the above)
Duration 248/246 Lobe center angle 117/120 cam lift 10/9.2

The reason i've picked theses two are because these are both engines that produce more power than our cars.

Now the LS motor is very close in common with ours with basic specs in most ways but bore. Stroke is the same. B20b is just a bigger bore basically the same motor though.

The sr20de is a non turbo n/a motor that makes more tq than hp stock but its still more power. I don't know much about this one, its just another 2.0L. Gives us more to compare too.

Now, obviously there are differences in the heads and such but those are the things i'm trying to figure out.
I'm waiting for someone to say, "well, just go buy a honda if you want one so much." Id say i don't want a honda. I love my mitsu.

I'm just trying to compare things in order to find the flaws, or ways to improve our cars without doing so much guess work.Now, the one thing that makes this kinda hard to do is the compression differences.

Stock b20b makes 135hp and 125ftlbs. Its power band is strong as fuck and its an n/a motor non vtec just like ours. I'm just wondering if anyone would like to take up the discussion with me and see if we might be able to learn some stuff that would benifit our engines by studying these other engines that are in our weight class.

I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

  
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Replies to this topic
RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam, TeamDR1665, Feb-05-09 12:55 PM, #1
RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam, Warmage12, Feb-05-09 02:40 PM, #2
      RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam, eclipse982nrRST, Feb-05-09 02:51 PM, #3
           RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam, Warmage12, Feb-05-09 03:04 PM, #4
           RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam, RoninEclipse2G, Feb-05-09 03:44 PM, #5
                RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam, Warmage12, Feb-05-09 03:57 PM, #6
                     RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam, SilvrEclips, Feb-05-09 04:06 PM, #7
                     RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam, TeamDR1665, Feb-06-09 11:51 AM, #8
           RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam, Moderatorteklein, Feb-05-09 04:23 PM, #9
                RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam, RoninEclipse2G, Feb-05-09 05:52 PM, #10
                     RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam, Moderatorbullettdsm, Feb-06-09 04:25 AM, #11
                          RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam, Moderatorteklein, Feb-06-09 05:56 AM, #12
                               RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam, RoninEclipse2G, Feb-06-09 12:39 PM, #13
                                    RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam, Moderatorbullettdsm, Feb-06-09 02:05 PM, #14
                                         RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam, Warmage12, Feb-06-09 04:42 PM, #15
                                         RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam, Moderatorteklein, Feb-06-09 08:46 PM, #16
                                              RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam, RoninEclipse2G, Feb-07-09 08:14 AM, #17

TeamDR1665Feb-05-09 12:55 PM
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#123889, "RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam"
In response to Reply # 0

          

1. Liter is a measurement of volume. Volume refers to the displacement. You want to compare engines of similar displacement.

2. Apples to Oranges, son. Cams are but a variable in a larger equation. You can't base 420A cam profiles upon figures for other 2L engines alone. Power is a function of effective compression ratio, ignition and valve timing, among other things.

Just an FYI. Flawed question imo.

  
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Warmage12Feb-05-09 02:40 PM
Member since May 24th 2008
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#123891, "RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam"
In response to Reply # 1
 Feb-05-09 02:43 PM by Warmage12



          

I figured my question had flaws in it. That's what the discussion part was for lol. I'm just trying to do some research and i can't do it alone. The b20 and 420a have similar displacment based on similar bore and strock..they are with 1mm either way. The heads are different and a b20 has .5 more compression than us. Can that 10 to 1 as opposed to the 9.5 to 1 account for almost 20-35 hp and 10-15 tq difference. That doesn't seem like alot but it adds up. I'm just seeing if there is anything to be learned. Say we were trying to engineer a super fruit or drink. We have to take the best parts of the orange and apple and come up with the best nutritional value. Thats what i'm tryin to do. emoji

And thank you for replying. Its kinda 'kills' me when i don't get a response.
I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

  
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eclipse982nrRSTFeb-05-09 02:51 PM
Member since Mar 16th 2004
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#123893, "RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam"
In response to Reply # 2

          

For the love of god please quit referring everything to Nissan's and fucking Honda's. Every post you make you mention something about a Nissan or how much power a stock Civic has. Quit it.

-MIKE-

Stroked 2.2L

  
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Warmage12Feb-05-09 03:04 PM
Member since May 24th 2008
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#123894, "RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam"
In response to Reply # 3



          

Srry, fine.
I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

  
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RoninEclipse2GFeb-05-09 03:44 PM
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#123897, "RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam"
In response to Reply # 4



          

Originally posted by Warmage12
I love my car... I love Horsepower... I love reliability... So why do i own a DSM again?


You do know that you can put this in your signature under the user menu right?

Erik P.
Official 2GNT thread Hijacker
Some say that he's driven over more Covenant than he's shot, and that his grenades aren't where you'd expect them to be...
All we know is, He's not The Stig... But he is The Stig's Spartan cousin!

  
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Warmage12Feb-05-09 03:57 PM
Member since May 24th 2008
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#123898, "RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam"
In response to Reply # 5



          

IT is in my signature
I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

  
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SilvrEclipsFeb-05-09 04:06 PM
Member since Nov 27th 2007
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#123899, "RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam"
In response to Reply # 6

          

I like how your thinking out side the box. Even though people make cams for out car now they are still priced high. I think it would be great to find some that would work from another car. I dont know to much about cams and what to look for in fitting them in our head so I cant be much help

98 Eclipse GS Turbo
Built motor - MS2 - Holset hy35 - Zoom Stg 4 Clutch - 57.5mm TB - ARP Headstuds - Turbonetics wastegate - 3" Turbo back - FMIC - Greddy RZ BOV - Walbro 255 - 650cc Injectors - Fidanza Flywheel - Cobra calipers w/ 13" Rotors - Oil Cooler - DevilsOwn meth injection

1981 Chevy Scottsdale
1987 Nissan 300zx - Chump Car
2001 BMW 325i

  
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TeamDR1665Feb-06-09 11:51 AM
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#123921, "RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam"
In response to Reply # 6

          

Originally posted by Warmage12
IT is in my signature


Yes, but there is a check box next to that field on the page which makes it editable when you post. That's the difference between quoting you and getting the above versus this...

Originally posted by Warmage12
IT is in my signature I love my car... I love Horsepower... I love reliability... So why do i own a DSM again?


See how it kinda janks things up? emoji

There is some merit to considering the over all picture between various engines, but it all comes back to the same performance theories that apply to ALL internal combustion engines. It's more like baking a cake. You have to use the same basic ingredients - air, fuel, compression, ignition, and ehxuast, but how you measure up those ingredients affects the kind of cake you get.

Break the basics down some more and think about it. If two engines have the exact same bore/stroke/displacement/et al, what are the pros and cons of changes to compression ratio (hint: "knock")? What are the pros and cons of changes in stroke (hint: "rod ratio")?

Just like larger diameter exhaust piping provides the best flow of higher volume exhaust in the top end, while reducing efficiency down low due to reduced gas velocity, so too do changes in other aspects of engine design affect not only how much power is made, but *more importantly* how much torque is generated and the characteristics of that torque.

In many ways, it's somewhat convenient that options are rather limited for this platform, as it sort of absolves people from having to really get too deep into theory instead of just going with previously proven methodologies.

  
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ModeratortekleinFeb-05-09 04:23 PM
Member since Nov 04th 2007
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#123902, "RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam"
In response to Reply # 3

          

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST
For the love of god please quit referring everything to Nissan's and fucking Honda's. Every post you make you mention something about a Nissan or how much power a stock Civic has. Quit it.


Lolz. I fear it will continue.

BTW, AFAIK no other camshaft made for another car will work in ours.

  
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RoninEclipse2GFeb-05-09 05:52 PM
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#123908, "RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam"
In response to Reply # 9



          


Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST For the love of god please quit referring everything to Nissan's and fucking Honda's. Every post you make you mention something about a Nissan or how much power a stock Civic has. Quit it.

yes, please. just because they are the same displacement doesn't mean that anything is similar.

Originally posted by teklein
Lolz. I fear it will continue. BTW, AFAIK no other camshaft made for another car will work in ours.

nope, not even the neon cams will work.

Erik P.
Official 2GNT thread Hijacker
Some say that he's driven over more Covenant than he's shot, and that his grenades aren't where you'd expect them to be...
All we know is, He's not The Stig... But he is The Stig's Spartan cousin!

  
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ModeratorbullettdsmFeb-06-09 04:25 AM
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#123915, "RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam"
In response to Reply # 10
 Feb-06-09 04:27 AM by bullettdsm

          

Originally posted by RoninEclipse2G nope, not even the neon cams will work.

Well accccttttualyy, the Neon cams CAN be altered to work on our engines. BUT, I'm not going into how etc. because, well, I'm just letting sleeping dogs lie.

Captain Caveman

96 RS Turbo 11.414 @ 119.62 MSNS, Crower 2 NA cams, BW366, 10.5 comp, UDP, 60mm TB, W/A intercooler, 3.55 tranny 567.9whp 430tq
97 RS NA 13.188 @ 103.87 MSnS powered 12.5 comp, Crower 3's and 219.4whp with 175tq
98 RS DD 12.5 comp on stock ECU, LTH, Crower 2's, Koni, GC, Hypercoil, DG hats
99 OZ 5sp Stocker 15.856 @ 85.97
99 GS stocker auto 17.7@77mph!

wiki home page:http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=bullettdsm

  
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ModeratortekleinFeb-06-09 05:56 AM
Member since Nov 04th 2007
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#123916, "RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam"
In response to Reply # 11

          

Originally posted by bullettdsm
Originally posted by RoninEclipse2G nope, not even the neon cams will work.
Well accccttttualyy, the Neon cams CAN be altered to work on our engines. BUT, I'm not going into how etc. because, well, I'm just letting sleeping dogs lie.


Haha!

I thought the same thing. Im not even going into it.

  
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RoninEclipse2GFeb-06-09 12:39 PM
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#123924, "RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam"
In response to Reply # 12



          

Originally posted by teklein
Originally posted by bullettdsm
Originally posted by RoninEclipse2G nope, not even the neon cams will work.
Well accccttttualyy, the Neon cams CAN be altered to work on our engines. BUT, I'm not going into how etc. because, well, I'm just letting sleeping dogs lie.
Haha! I thought the same thing. Im not even going into it.

I was meaning as a drop in application emoji
Yes, I too know how to make them work but the route this thread was going, I wasn't going to even present it as an option

Erik P.
Official 2GNT thread Hijacker
Some say that he's driven over more Covenant than he's shot, and that his grenades aren't where you'd expect them to be...
All we know is, He's not The Stig... But he is The Stig's Spartan cousin!

  
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ModeratorbullettdsmFeb-06-09 02:05 PM
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#123925, "RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam"
In response to Reply # 13
 Feb-06-09 02:06 PM by bullettdsm

          

Originally posted by RoninEclipse2G
Originally posted by teklein
Originally posted by bullettdsm
Originally posted by RoninEclipse2G nope, not even the neon cams will work.
Well accccttttualyy, the Neon cams CAN be altered to work on our engines. BUT, I'm not going into how etc. because, well, I'm just letting sleeping dogs lie.
Haha! I thought the same thing. Im not even going into it.
....but the route this thread was going, I wasn't going to even present it as an option

Then we're all in the same boat........and one of you motherf***ers better start rowing because I'm not. You can look down below to see why. I mean, I AM the Captain emoji lol.

Captain Caveman

96 RS Turbo 11.414 @ 119.62 MSNS, Crower 2 NA cams, BW366, 10.5 comp, UDP, 60mm TB, W/A intercooler, 3.55 tranny 567.9whp 430tq
97 RS NA 13.188 @ 103.87 MSnS powered 12.5 comp, Crower 3's and 219.4whp with 175tq
98 RS DD 12.5 comp on stock ECU, LTH, Crower 2's, Koni, GC, Hypercoil, DG hats
99 OZ 5sp Stocker 15.856 @ 85.97
99 GS stocker auto 17.7@77mph!

wiki home page:http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=bullettdsm

  
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Warmage12Feb-06-09 04:42 PM
Member since May 24th 2008
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#123936, "RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam"
In response to Reply # 14



          

ROFLMAO

I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

  
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ModeratortekleinFeb-06-09 08:46 PM
Member since Nov 04th 2007
1699 posts, 		Click to send email to this author Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list
#123939, "RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam"
In response to Reply # 14

          

Originally posted by bullettdsm
Originally posted by RoninEclipse2G
Originally posted by teklein
Originally posted by bullettdsm
Originally posted by RoninEclipse2G nope, not even the neon cams will work.
Well accccttttualyy, the Neon cams CAN be altered to work on our engines. BUT, I'm not going into how etc. because, well, I'm just letting sleeping dogs lie.
Haha! I thought the same thing. Im not even going into it.
....but the route this thread was going, I wasn't going to even present it as an option
Then we're all in the same boat........and one of you motherf***ers better start rowing because I'm not. You can look down below to see why. I mean, I AM the Captain emoji lol.


Not it!

  
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RoninEclipse2GFeb-07-09 08:14 AM
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#123950, "RE: OH cam Oh cam....Were ar't thought oh cam"
In response to Reply # 16



          

Originally posted by teklein
Originally posted by bullettdsm
Originally posted by RoninEclipse2G
Originally posted by teklein
Originally posted by bullettdsm
Originally posted by RoninEclipse2G nope, not even the neon cams will work.
Well accccttttualyy, the Neon cams CAN be altered to work on our engines. BUT, I'm not going into how etc. because, well, I'm just letting sleeping dogs lie.
Haha! I thought the same thing. Im not even going into it.
....but the route this thread was going, I wasn't going to even present it as an option
Then we're all in the same boat........and one of you motherf***ers better start rowing because I'm not. You can look down below to see why. I mean, I AM the Captain emoji lol.
Not it!

ROFLcopter

Erik P.
Official 2GNT thread Hijacker
Some say that he's driven over more Covenant than he's shot, and that his grenades aren't where you'd expect them to be...
All we know is, He's not The Stig... But he is The Stig's Spartan cousin!

  
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