I've come to a point were i've exhausted all possible outcomes for my car with the stock ecu and cams with basic boltons. There are a few mor like a TB or a UDP, that i've yet to get. But i'm at a point we're i'm trying to decide my next move. I'm steering clear of boost because i've still got things to to learn and don't have time for the neccesary upkeep that a turbo car can produce. I'm heading towards nitrous and am just trying to find other ways to get that extra bit of N/A power. So what's next? This will occur over several months so lots of time to explore the benifts of each mod and make notes. CAMS? MSNS? Adjustable cam gears?

I've begun replacing and cleaning all old parts; replacing anything that is not atleast 3 years old or newer, not damaged or in good condition. I'm looking for different methods. I've thought of building a better intake manifold. I've done gasket matching and thought about some valve train mods maybe. Just looking for some different oppions on were to go with this before hitting up the Nitrous bottle.

Car runs 10.4 in the 1/8 mile at 65 mph. Made 117hp and 115tq. Was hoping for close to 150 or 140 hp N/A.


I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

Hey Jessee. I'm just strating out with my 97 stock RS. So far just a CAI and cat exhaust with some 4 2 1 headers. Definitely a little nicer but definitely leaves me wanting MORE!

In the next month to 6 weeks I'm going to add a UDP and 55mm TB with the 1/2 shaft mod. I'll let you know how that feels compared to the little I've done. A few guys here thought that was my next step and that I'd for sure feel a difference.

Also, by chance, I came across some AEM adj. cam gears. Those will be on when I do my timing belt and UDP. I'll leave them on dead 0 for a little bit so I can appreciate the other mods, then I'll start playing with them. I understand a dyno set up is best for the cam gears and will probably do that later on. I have stock cams and the general opinion I've gotten is 3-5whp. Not much but I'll take it, lol.

Good luck with your next decisions! Keep us posted.

Captain Caveman

96 RS Turbo 11.414 @ 119.62 MSNS, Crower 2 NA cams, BW366, 10.5 comp, UDP, 60mm TB, W/A intercooler, 3.55 tranny 567.9whp 430tq
97 RS NA 13.188 @ 103.87 MSnS powered 12.5 comp, Crower 3's and 219.4whp with 175tq
98 RS DD 12.5 comp on stock ECU, LTH, Crower 2's, Koni, GC, Hypercoil, DG hats
99 OZ 5sp Stocker 15.856 @ 85.97
99 GS stocker auto 17.7@77mph!

wiki home page:http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=bullettdsm

I've been leaning towards the tune. For the most part its the cheapest of the three, for me anyways.

Bullet, since you've worked alot with the n/a power, and i've looked at your dyno graphs, what does it take to extend the power band all the way to redline? I've won races against cars that i've lost to before just by reving all the way. Even though its supposed to not make power there, i find i only do well if i do rev that high. I'd like to get my power atleast flatlined up there and if possible produce some gains. I know about the horrible ecu pulling timing and adding fuel ontop of that, so MSNS is important. I've read and heard that the stock cams don't produce any MORE power past 6Grand. I don't want a nasty idle but can i expect what i want from say a stage one N/A cam or do i need a stage two? What other supporting mods would i need in my valvetrain and such?

Thanks for your time. And a 60mm TB is in the works, i noticed a big diference with just A 50MM. A 1.8L LS honda motor runs a 58mm STOCK.


OH! and were's a write up or a how-top on this half shaff mod? I got get a new cv axle anyway. lol. This mod may happen real soon.

I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

A half shaft mod is removing the top portion of the throttle plate shaft, leaving the lower portion with threaded holes to secure the plate.

Nothing to do with a CV axle.

Thanks Mark. I have no idea how much I can safely tweak the cam gears. I read of a few people in my searches that settled on the +2/-2 setting. How would I know before I go too far? Like I don't want to go to the gnats ass and drive on a prayer, lol.

Ok MSnS-I have no confidence because I don't even completely know what it is yet. I see alot of guys running it though. Is it a good mod for a daily driver or best for a race mod? What cost would I be looking at? I'm also pretty lame with computer/electronics things if I was to be doing alot of "programing" type things.

Thanks again Cap'n

as above people have said:

order i'd go in-
#1 UDP
#2 MSnS
#3 60mm TB w/ halfshaft mod
#3b Pnp intake /w bored upper intake manifold or order a AMM sheet metal intake if you can talk him into building you one
#4 Crower 2 NA-grind
#5 pay for real dyno time and a good tune

______________________________________
______________________________________
"Don't fear the weapon, fear the soul of the warrior using it."
"My CEL only goes off when i remove my battery."

Best sum up of working on a 2GNT
DR1665- "#5. Spike that motherfucker on the garage floor and grab a beer. You deserve it."


Ahhhh Priceless . . .
eclipse982nrRST "its actually lightish red"
RoninEclipse2G "yeah, they already have a color for that... it's called PINK"

Captain Caveman

96 RS Turbo 11.414 @ 119.62 MSNS, Crower 2 NA cams, BW366, 10.5 comp, UDP, 60mm TB, W/A intercooler, 3.55 tranny 567.9whp 430tq
97 RS NA 13.188 @ 103.87 MSnS powered 12.5 comp, Crower 3's and 219.4whp with 175tq
98 RS DD 12.5 comp on stock ECU, LTH, Crower 2's, Koni, GC, Hypercoil, DG hats
99 OZ 5sp Stocker 15.856 @ 85.97
99 GS stocker auto 17.7@77mph!

wiki home page:http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=bullettdsm

U read me exactly how i ment it. Just in terms of getting peak power to continue to the stock redline. So MSNS it is then. Shouldn't be too hard. Not sayin its gona be easy. And yes. Those lists are what i was looking for.

Sorry about the misunderstanding the half shaft mod. lol.

Now, i've tried to read the more advanced stuff and i've recieved one excellent reply to this already that laid some good ground work in my brain. But my last question is about cams. The n/a cams. I drive my car everyday and i'm not looking to make any more than 200, my aim is just shy of that, say 190. I need a descent idle, i already have engine mount inserts that rattle my brains a bit, so i need a cam that's gona accomplish my goal but still provide the few comforts i look for. I keep hearin that crower 2's over the crower 1's and i trust that advice. But if i could get a simple rundown of why that is and what gains (in simple terms) i can expect. Please don't shatter my hopes and dreams. LOL

I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

Nitrous is not going to harm an engine anymore than a turbo will IF it is installed and used correctly. The next step to get some more power and to extend you power band Jesse is to get MSnS going. Most people are scared by it but on an NA car with stock injectors the fuel is not hard to tune at all. I have not started tuning the ignition but I will soon enough. I would go in your case SUSPENSION(get rid of what you have now, and put some springs from an avenger on it), MSnS, UDP, TB, Cams.

As, far as driving it around town, my lack of suspension bothers me, racing on the other hand, it doesn't, which is funny. I find it attacks very well in a straight line. But a good supension never hurts. Do we have nay examples of what the avenger springs look like on our cars? AND my biggest question is will it blow my struts out?

Do you have to get an A/F gauge to tune megasquirt? I know i can use the dyno with a wide band but does the MSNS provide an "in" screen A/F of any kinda? My guess is "no" but just thought i'd ask.

I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

no cam exist to do what you are asking jesse. And no msns does no need a wbo2 but it is highly recommended. Avenger springs give better launching than stock springs and you cutt ass front springs will blow your struts out faster than anything.

Come on man, My car is NOT a 17 sec car thank you. Its not fast but its not THAT slow. I've beat cars that are supposed to run better times than mine stock. I'm talking honda's. Ya sure you can stick a dumbass driver in anything and make it lose, i wouldn't comment if that was the case. And again for the record. I only talk about accomplishments from a drag strip. Time slips to back it up.

I need to get to a 1/4 mile track. lol

Anyway. Back on topic. I've been looking for the parts you mentioned i'd need, slo, for my megasquirt unit and i think i've found them on DIYautotuner.
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/megasquirt-pigtail-harness-p-114.html
and is this the map sensor you said i'd need?
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/mpx4250-bar-map-sensor-p-106.html
anything else i'm gona need for this?

I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

Yes those are the two things you will need plus a Wideband( I really don't recomend using a narrow band with it). I used a GM coolant and air intake temp sensor and pig tail to help make installation a bit easier. If you want to run ignition you will need an external igniter or some type of internal igniter as well. The extra board I have is a MS1 V3.0

Is the coolant and air temp sensors required? My guess is they just make everything more accurate during the tuning process. Or is it because the alternative, and my guess more difficult path, using the stock ones?

And what does the board come with? Will i need a houseing or anything. I guess i'll see 2marow if anything.
I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

Erik P.
Official 2GNT thread Hijacker
Some say that he's driven over more Covenant than he's shot, and that his grenades aren't where you'd expect them to be...
All we know is, He's not The Stig... But he is The Stig's Spartan cousin!

You shouldn't need anything for the MSnS except the map sensor. All of the other stuff is for the install.

Ok, gotcha, hopefully i can get this up and running with little trouble. Its kinda exciting though. I've been rolling it all over in my head for months trying to decide. Can't wait to get on that dyno and start tuning the thing. But first things first, get it installed right. I'm gona start with just the fuel first. I figure that's best.

I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

A buddy of mine dynoed 150whp with bolt ons and a built head. Tuning with a SAFC. The mods mentioned above should get you over 150whp or so. But think about how much money you are spending on all this stuff. You could buy your self a turbo kit for that and make around 200whp. Its not any more upkeep really.

98 Eclipse GS Turbo
Built motor - MS2 - Holset hy35 - Zoom Stg 4 Clutch - 57.5mm TB - ARP Headstuds - Turbonetics wastegate - 3" Turbo back - FMIC - Greddy RZ BOV - Walbro 255 - 650cc Injectors - Fidanza Flywheel - Cobra calipers w/ 13" Rotors - Oil Cooler - DevilsOwn meth injection

1981 Chevy Scottsdale
1987 Nissan 300zx - Chump Car
2001 BMW 325i

True, but a trubo kit requires long term saving and that's not something i can focus on right now. Buying things in smaller incriments here and there works well for me.

So making 150whp shouldn't be a problem? Good. That's something of my goal.

I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

What is the difference between the closed element and open element GM sensors?
I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

.....

From the looks of things here, I would start planning on a new engine.

-MIKE-

Stroked 2.2L

(Mark's already covered the bases well enough, but...)

Forget, for a moment, about redline. Pick up Crower 2 cams and a set of nice gears (Fidanza, imo). Install MSnS with all the good sensors you'll need to fully tune - wbO2, MAP, CLT, IAT.

Load up some known-solid fuel maps and head to the local dyno. Buy an hour or two on the rollers. None of that my-peen-is-THIS-big, three-pulls-for-the-crowd bullshit. Make a baseline, then start playing with the cams. Don't nit-pick it, but make a couple pulls trying this and that to get a feel for how power changes versus torque.

If your tuner is good, he'll be watching the AFR for places in need of some love and you'll knock some of that out of the way in the process. With the cams dialed in, shift your focus to dialing in the AFR. Granted, with on-board wbO2, you could be logging pulls at the track and making adjustments yourself, but if you're going to have a tuner shop actually assist with tuning, might as well.

Finally, once you've got the cams and fuel dialed to your liking, learn ignition and go back to the shop. If your engine is safe to spin to 8000rpm (which I wouldn't do with a stocker), set a soft-touch rev limiter with MSnS for just before 8krpm, then make a pull and see where your power peaks. Once the engine has peaked, there's no point in winding much beyond that.

Meh. This was my plan, anyway.

Now, theres another plan that sound interesting. But i won't be able to fork out the money to do it all at once. Some people say the way i do things is a "ricer" way, building up slowly over time, but that's all i can do. I'll have plenty of time to get each part perfect and adjust my habits accordingly though. I just ordered a jeep 60mm tb. I've gota hold off on the MSNS cause i don't have the whole 200+ dollars to make it work right. But its defintely close behind. The franchise i worked for just closed up for some stupid (non-economy related) reasons. But i have a lil cash to keep things going.

Right now i'm happy with a 7k redline. 8k though is definately worth it. I've seen what a b20 and b20 vtec can make there and its about the same as ours (the non vtec). So i'd def like to get near that line. But i'm not sure. I got lots of learning left to do and shiney forged parts to buy. But my tentative plan is the 60mm, job, UDP, MSNS, cam gears, cams, (nitrous and suspension will happen wenever i feel good), and IM. From there its whatever but a built motor is definately in the future.

I've really been wanting to get info on Intake manifolds. Something that i've been trying to PM a few people about and get info on, but so far my questions have gone unanswered.

Edit:

I've searched all over the place and can't find a goosd write up or how to on the half shaft mod. Can someone give me some hot on this?

And i still need to know about the closed vs open element sensors for the IAT and CLT on MSNS.
I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

Ricers don't do things slowly and meticulously. They hastily cobble whatever cheap, Ebay knockoff bullshit they found for the lowest price onto their cars without concern for actual benefits. And they almost ALWAYS have body kits and altezza tail lights.

The trick is to think about WHY people talk about things like redline the way they do. From the factory, the redline represents the upper limit of where you can safely operate your engine without substantially shortening its lifespan (at best) or destroying it altogether (at worst). So, with this in mind, WHY do you think those people who NEED to raise the rev limiter do it?

Don't worry about the halfshaft mod for TBs. If anyone tells you they felt an improvement from doing that, they're full of shit. Focus on the basics of automotive performance theory and ignore the sycophants.

Dang, lol, that was harsh. So the half shaft mod is a no-no? I kept thinking it might be dangerous, you know? Weakening something that could possbile send tiny bolts into your engine. lol, not like i havn't done that already.

Anyway. I was wondering, and i've recieved 2 oppionions, one i can trust the other i don't really care for about tuning my car N/A. If our ECU was good, then i figured a tune wouldn't do much. But our ECU isn't that good, from what i gather. So would a tune provide any gains? Assuming its just fuel, on stock cams. I know timing would gain power. So far the oppinion stands that i "WONT" gain in power. I'm not looking for 100 or anything stupid, but say even 5hp...maybe? Anyone think its possible. If a tune isn't gona do anything then i think i should start with cams.

PS. much respect to the one oppionon i've already asked. I just want one or two others.

I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?

It's not that our ECU is bad per se, it's more that it's stubborn. I haven't heard of any tuning that can be done to it that it won't unlearn or ignore in the first place. that's why people use MSnS, that allows you complete control over the entire system

Erik P.
Official 2GNT thread Hijacker
Some say that he's driven over more Covenant than he's shot, and that his grenades aren't where you'd expect them to be...
All we know is, He's not The Stig... But he is The Stig's Spartan cousin!

Captain Caveman

96 RS Turbo 11.414 @ 119.62 MSNS, Crower 2 NA cams, BW366, 10.5 comp, UDP, 60mm TB, W/A intercooler, 3.55 tranny 567.9whp 430tq
97 RS NA 13.188 @ 103.87 MSnS powered 12.5 comp, Crower 3's and 219.4whp with 175tq
98 RS DD 12.5 comp on stock ECU, LTH, Crower 2's, Koni, GC, Hypercoil, DG hats
99 OZ 5sp Stocker 15.856 @ 85.97
99 GS stocker auto 17.7@77mph!

wiki home page:http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=bullettdsm

MY bad, i guess i worded that a bit wrong.

Um, i ment a tune with MSNS. Not changing our stock ECU's parameters. I've been told, as stated above, that a tune, with: MSNS, SAFC, etc, won't do anything for an N/A car like ours, even with my parts and bit of work. I found that slightly odd considering that a tune was the first thing suggested to me here. Now, i really like the idea of a tune, and tuning. I just feel kinda confused at the moment.

Now i know that if i change timing, wether cam or ignition, i can gain power but what about tuning with just fuel? Is there any chance of gaining power wether it be through hp, tq, or even just a better time at the strip. I know my car was rich up top when i watched it get dyno'd, and i've heard plenty about the timing issues after 6k. I just wonder if cleaning that fuel map up will produce any extra power, 5hp would be great, and if the car would atleast accelerate better cause it doesn't have all that extra unburnt fuel playing around in it. I'm not lookng for a 100 or even 10 hp wonder. Just some extra power and maybe better acceleration.

DID i clarify that at all?

I love my car...
I love Horsepower...
I love reliability...
So why do i own a DSM again?