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Subject: "Fuel cooling for detonation control?"

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foggy45	Sep-27-08 05:04 PM
Member since Dec 28th 2003 1032 posts,

#110128, "Fuel cooling for detonation control?"
Sep-27-08 05:17 PM by foggy45

i was doing some research into what pistons i wanted to order for my motor.
i know the 8:1's are proven performers, but i was also looking at some 10.5's
i figure as long as i can control detonation that i should be fine and i will get more out of my turbo then needing to run 2+ Bar to get the hp i'm looking for.

now i know colder air is the most efficient for providing a denser charge and running High octane is required for boosting (read: DD, anytime not at track)

now cooling cans are popular for drag racing but not so much for TT and AX racing where a multi-pass cooler is employed.

but how effective is cooling fuel in practice?
ive read number like a 10* change below ambient is good for 0.5% HP increase. and when fuels with High vapor pressures are employed we can keep the flame propagation in check but still make sure that the highest cylinder pressures occur before we pass 20* TDC. (ie slow burn fuels, c-16 etc)

plus cooler fuels can extend the life of my fuel pump.

one foreseeable problem would be preventing heat soak of the intake manifold from ruining this but i think i can be overcome this with phenolics or a different manifold material all together emoji

on to implementation
on a returnless system there are only a few options on where to put the cooler. before the pump or before the rail, either preferably either air cooled or coolant cooled.

on a return system the placement varies wildly. you can still go pre pump or pre rail, but i have heard of problems with return lines heating up after the fuel is depressurized in the line and then this will heat up the surge tank and negate this entirely so putting one on the return might be a good idea as well.

any discussion?

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Replies to this topic

RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?, 96TurboGS, Sep-27-08 08:36 PM, #1

RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?, loser_635, Sep-28-08 04:07 AM, #2

RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?, foggy45, Sep-28-08 06:18 AM, #3

RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?, Slo2g, Sep-28-08 08:30 AM, #4

RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?, 96TurboGS, Sep-28-08 09:15 AM, #5

RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?, foggy45, Sep-28-08 11:20 AM, #6

RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?, loser_635, Sep-28-08 02:05 PM, #7

RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?, 96TurboGS, Sep-28-08 05:09 PM, #8

RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?, Slo2g, Sep-28-08 06:15 PM, #9

RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?, foggy45, Sep-28-08 08:09 PM, #10

RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?, Moderator

bullettdsm, Sep-29-08 10:10 AM, #11

RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?, Warmage12, Feb-09-10 01:05 PM, #12

96TurboGS	Sep-27-08 08:36 PM
Member since Dec 01st 2007 125 posts,

#110129, "RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?"
In response to Reply # 0

Ill give it a try...

First of all, great post as to it has opened my eyes on this fuel thing, I was kinda worried about it myself due to how hot my lines were getting from the fuel pump and the engine. And we all know heat can be a bitch when it comes to a turbocharged combustion engine. I will agree with you that colder fuel does increase hp levels since its much denser and less prone to detonation increasing maximum power efficiency, but via how much?? Why 10:5?? I would think twice as for a higher compression ratio tho, as to having it will decrease your margin of error/air your able to force into the cylinder. Stick to whats proven to work, the cooler fuel will only aid you more. Who is to say that the temperature Variations will remain the same throughout the engine’s operation over a certain period of time? Better safe than sorry. 10.5’s are pushing it, because I know you will get the boost bug and want more. Murphy’s Law will come into play, lol!! I can’t even imagine the stress on the battery and alternator to keep a high tech cooling system running (if one exists in the 2gnt world, lol). Another topic that would be good to look into is cooling the intake charge, but I don’t think it is as effective as this (for everyday use). I’m bought on the idea after seeing this link (bottom of page), now I have a whole different perspective. At first I was worried about fuel flow (when going through the cooler), but then did some research and found that it wont be a problem as to fuel flows pretty fast when pressured through a line. Since i have SS 6-an return and feed im sure that would aid me lots when cooling the fuel. I also thought/read that the cooler vapor coming off the fuel would make it somewhat better for the intake manifold. A good friend of mine runs one of these with dry ice in his tt mustang when he races.

http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?catcode=32030
But for a DD street car like a eclipse who in the hell wants to stop aside the road to fill up there can with some dry ice every 20 miles, I sure aint!!

Ill go the cooled air route

-->Fuel pump/tank-->Fuel Unit --> Fuel cooler --> Rail (all SS of course)

By the time it goes back to the tank it will be cooled to some degree.
If you were pre pump wouldn’t it be pre heated by the pump and engine bay temps before it gets too the rail???

This might be a good idea to look into for oil feeds and such coming off the block to the turbo, because this thing looks promising. Too fit one of these in the car, I was thinking about going the civic radiator route. A little something to think about...
http://www.oconeeoffroad.com/servlet/the-21426/Jeep-Flex-dsh-a-dsh-Lite--/Detail

Let me know whatcha think guy

This is a great discussion keep em coming...

-Rafiel

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loser_635	Sep-28-08 04:07 AM
Member since Jan 06th 2008 19 posts,

#110130, "RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?"
In response to Reply # 1

Import Tuner did an article about cooling products like 3-4 issues ago,it had the R34 on the front, and they tested the S-Max Cool Can.

heres a link to it
http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp_0808_cooling_mods/smax_cool_can.html

They got like 2HP out of it. Thing that sucks you gota keep replacing the soda or beer or w/e you put in there to cool the fuel,
i'd get it if it you didnt have to do that.
Seem like something you would to use to get those last few HPs out.

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foggy45	Sep-28-08 06:18 AM
Member since Dec 28th 2003 1032 posts,

#110131, "RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?"
In response to Reply # 2

just to clarify im not looking to use a "Cooler can" since im not draging. (but cooling with dry ice would be sweet though) so it would be a passive or limited active cooler without the need for me to use an addative to achieve cooling

i was lookign at the 10.5's because of the narrow powerband i was looking at being at when running full out. (TT AX, NOT Drag)
as such the hp peaks would come on quicker then running an LC pistons due to the smaller turbo spoolign quicker to make the required boost. plus larger boost pressures needed when running a LC can nessecitate a larger frame turbo and then dealing with the lag.
plus i would have a bit more in the NA pre-boost band from the higher comp pistons. (+4%HP per point of compression increase)

yes the tuning would have to be more spot on but with todays microprocessor controled engine management units we can be much more precise in the tuning anyway so we can ride that edge closer.
plus to get the same amout of power from a LC piston i would be running a larger boost setting anyway and then your right back on that same edge as you were with the HC set up.

as we know, just atomizing fuel into the combustion chamber absorbs some heat. so by changing the fuels heat value we can increase this effect and cooling the fuel will further add to this. but short of running methanol i would look at "normal" race fuels on race day and premimum for DD without the need for a multi tank setup just for fuel. this is also why im not looking at extreme high comps like 13+

you mentioned cooling the intake charge as well.
and again drag racing has nice solutions for this but again they are active designs and not sutable for distance.

(one sec have to go do surgery be back soon)

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Slo2g	Sep-28-08 08:30 AM
Member since Feb 10th 2006 1074 posts,

#110132, "RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?"
In response to Reply # 3

I am in the process of doing a 10.5 comp plus a S20g set up and to combat the tuning problem I am also switching to E85. It might be something for you to look into. I think you will be hard pressed to find a fuel cooling set up that will last for a distance and do a good job of cooling the fuel enough to make a difference.

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96TurboGS	Sep-28-08 09:15 AM
Member since Dec 01st 2007 125 posts,

#110133, "RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?"
In response to Reply # 4
Sep-28-08 09:19 AM by 96TurboGS

Originally posted by loser_635
Import Tuner did an article about cooling products like 3-4 issues ago,it had the R34 on the front, and they tested the S-Max Cool Can. heres a link to it http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp_0808_cooling_mods/smax_cool_can.html They got like 2HP out of it. Thing that sucks you gota keep replacing the soda or beer or w/e you put in there to cool the fuel, i'd get it if it you didnt have to do that. Seem like something you would to use to get those last few HPs out.

How long did it take you to find that useful info? I googed it and found it as the second link. The truth is....people have been using these methods at the tracks for year’s man. The link you posted is not the same design and is less efficient from the one i posted. It’s still a turbo car and u can’t go wrong with cooler fuel, so I said “what the hell ill give it a try”.. Either way the second link is the way to go it’s like an intercooler except it’s for fuel with a fan!! My lines are already hot to touch. And as stated above i don't have to stop to put dry ice in it.

Originally posted by foggy45i was lookign at the 10.5's because of the narrow powerband i was looking at being at when running full out. (TT AX, NOT Drag)as such the hp peaks would come on quicker then running an LC pistons due to the smaller turbo spoolign quicker to make the required boost. plus larger boost pressures needed when running a LC can nessecitate a larger frame turbo and then dealing with the lag. plus i would have a bit more in the NA pre-boost band from the higher comp pistons. (+4%HP per point of compression increase)yes the tuning would have to be more spot on but with todays microprocessor controled engine management units we can be much more precise in the tuning anyway so we can ride that edge closer.plus to get the same amout of power from a LC piston i would be running a larger boost setting anyway and then your right back on that same edge as you were with the HC set up

If you’re worried about lag time why don’t you just get a good t3 compressor that has a good spool/CFM rating to get that quick street performance you’re looking for? Sure little to no lag is nice but wouldn’t you want a better top end performance? That’s not even talking about the wheel spin you’d be getting down low. I say msns and knock sense would be your best bet unless you have something better cooked up. Water injection is another bet for the application you’re wishing to have. The only problem with your set up is not the tuning but the octane that it’s going to constantly run at (116) - meth injection. You’re right that it would take less amount of work for an engine that is 10.5 vs. 8.8:1. I’m still confused on why you’re going this route when you will be limited as too the 8:8.1 should handle more. Then again I guess its all depends on the power level you’re trying to achieve. I don’t think that you will get away with 10.5 only by running cooler fuel, it will help a little. But I’m still soled on this idea. What cooling method did you have in mind?

Still trying to find cooling specs…

-Rafiel

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foggy45	Sep-28-08 11:20 AM
Member since Dec 28th 2003 1032 posts,

#110134, "RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?"
In response to Reply # 4
Sep-28-08 11:47 AM by foggy45

aight back for a bit lol

Originally posted by Slo2g
I am also switching to E85.

yes this has definatly peaked my intrest and i'm activly searching for good info about this nice alternative, which is cheaper and has some good promise.

10.5 discussion again emoji

i am basing this build around an HKS GT-RS turbine which has enough flow to reach 400 hp, cant remember the specs off my head but its similar to the Garrett GT28RS or Disco Potato "big spud" iirc.

***EDIT***
found the specs
Compressor:
- Wheel- 52 Trim - 51.2 Inducer / 71.1 Major
- Housing- 60 Inlet / 50 Outlet - 0.60 A/R

Turbine:
- Wheel- 76 Trim - 53.8 Major / 47.0 Exducer
- Housing- GT25 inlet / outlet; 0.64 A/R

these have seen good use on the 300zx and skylines in twin versions and on the SR20 in a single and seems very capable.
so droping this on a 2.4 long rod motor i feel will make for a sweet contender. now this is where the 10.5 comes in.
off boost and light crusing the 2.4 makes a sweet NA motor, add the 4% for the HC and you have an excelent motor for DD and "spirited" driving. and thats before you add any boost.

skipping the 10.5 and using a stock 2.4 @ 25 lbs we get. . .
2.4L = 147 cid
boost = 25 psi (2.7 bar)
using a value of 0.052 bhp/cid psi for the low end and 0.077 bhp/cid psi for the high end.

bhp/cid x cid x (boost + 14.7) = bhp
the 2.4L would make between 304 and 449 bhp
0.052 x 147 x (25 + 14.7) = 304
0.077 x 147 x (25 + 14.7) = 449

the 2.4L also has a higher air flow rate.
therefore more oxygen is avaliable for combustion equals more power,
assuming an %85 volumetric efficiency

air flow rate = (cid x rpm x 0.5 x Ev)/ 1728
0.5 is due to the fact that a 4-stroke only fills on half the revolutions.
Ev is volumetric efficiency
1728 converts cubic inches to cubic feet
note: this is non boosted ( we'll get to that)
2.4L = (147 x 5200 x 0.5 x 0.85)/ 1728 = 188.0cfm

boosted air flow is presure ratio x basic cfm
2.4L = 2.7 x 188.0 = 507.6 cfm

adding in the 4% for the 10.5 we get a 2.4 doing between 316 and 467 bhp.

where this power will lie in the band will depend on the turbo used and granted tuning @ 25 lbs is going to be tricky no matter what your compression, let alone a 10.5

alas the cooling discussion we were on . ..
i was intending to use fuel cooling as part of a complete package on the car and not as the sole solution for a HC motor emoji

so in my "package" i would like to include remote oil cooling for obvious reasons, upgrade the radiator to a full AL one, and a good intercooler weill finish it out. now some will emoji

and say thats not too fancy? but its all in how you implement them into your car. this is where i started to look at F-1, GT-Touring, and GT-500 cars for aerodynamic ideas.
using a carbon / kevlar splitter and undertray i can increase the cooling of the engine by using under body pressure differentials and also use aerodynamics to draw the air through my intercooler and radiator and out through a vented hood.
the oil cooler has its own front intake and exhaust within the bumper with carbon / kevlar ducting
front brake cooling duct intakes are also built into the front bumper and help keep the brakes from adding any heat to the equation.
the air charge is gonna have its own bumper intake but wont be a ture RAM or CAI because of the possible damages associated with those two options. rather its gonna be a guided intake duct from the front bumper to the bay.

as far as the intake mnifold itself, the use of Phenolic material (Virgin PTFE) will be used for gaskets and other seperators. ultimatly i hope to use ITB's with a shower curtin fuel supply in a carbon plenum. (but that is a whole nother set of issues)
also im looking into a change in valve materials to possibly help with chamber cooling and reducing transfer heat to the valve train.

therefore the fuel cooling would be a suplement to this and hopefully add a safty margin to the tuning so i was thining of at least a pre rail cooler and possibly a pre pump cooler or on the return line using a pre surge tank cooler emoji

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loser_635	Sep-28-08 02:05 PM
Member since Jan 06th 2008 19 posts,

#110135, "RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?"
In response to Reply # 6

96turbogs, what are you taking about how long did it take me to find that useful? anyways

you might wana check this out if you wana keep stuff cooler.

http://www.swaintech.com/store.asp?pid=10539&catid=19694
I just found out about it a week or so ago.
I gave up on it cause well I really dont see myself going as far as you want to go.

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96TurboGS	Sep-28-08 05:09 PM
Member since Dec 01st 2007 125 posts,

#110138, "RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?"
In response to Reply # 7
Sep-28-08 07:34 PM by 96TurboGS

Originally posted by foggy45
Compressor:
- Wheel- 52 Trim - 51.2 Inducer / 71.1 Major
- Housing- 60 Inlet / 50 Outlet - 0.60 A/R

Turbine:
- Wheel- 76 Trim - 53.8 Major / 47.0 Exducer
- Housing- GT25 inlet / outlet; 0.64 A/R

skipping the 10.5 and using a stock 2.4 @ 25 lbs we get. . .
2.4L = 147 cid
boost = 25 psi (2.7 bar)
using a value of 0.052 bhp/cid psi for the low end and 0.077 bhp/cid psi for the high end.

where this power will lie in the band will depend on the turbo used and granted tuning @ 25 lbs is going to be tricky no matter what your compression, let alone a 10.5

Ahhhhhhhhh finally some info on your set up, I was kind of shooting in the dark trying to think about characteristics of diff turbos. Damn that’s a lot of formulas. But how realistic are they? There are a lot of other variations you need to put into consideration like….cams, intake, tb, fuel octane, ect. Another question for you is if you ever get to 400hp on that turbo another thing you will be fighting is heat going back into the intake due to the compressor efficiency. I helped a friend with a turbo on his spec v a while back before he went into the force and the problem we had with the gt-28 is that after 20psi it was blowing nothing but hot air (due to it being less then 60% efficient) into the intake, and I know you don’t want that with high compression pistons as you will take a L. For some reason this goes back to what I said about margin of error. How will you come up with a way to run 25 psi on this turbo since the compressor maps are identical to the gt-28r? How will you battle heat issues?

You bought the 10.5’s didn’t you, lol

E85 is sweet, here is some cool info I digged up. Too bad there are no stations around here, but luckily we have some of the cheapest gas prices around.

http://www.ethanolboost.com/EBS_Overview.pdf

As for the cooling part, it would be sweat if you could show pics when your done constructing it (that’s if it’s not top secret or anything). emoji

Whenever I get around to buying this thing I will post pics and discuss my findings.

Originally posted by loser_63596turbogs, what are you taking about how long did it take me to find that useful?

I thought you were trying to tell me that the cans only aided a power of 2 hp and wasn’t effective; with dry ice it does more than just a 2hp gain. Why show me that link about coatings, I already have heat wrap from advance, witch took my temps down by a 1/3. I was thinking about this air cooled thing because….I will be pushing the engine to its limits around this time next year when I get the ofe clutch installed, I hope too have the head done with all kinds of goodies by then(everything you can put in a head); im only at 10 psi and beating my friends z-28. Had the gt-35r on from my friends Honda and it was a little slower to spool up then mine and mines flow a little more than his. I have all the supporting mods other than a stock head and a stage 1 clutch, that’s why I’m stuck at 10 psi. emoji

I will have over 400 hp DD, period even if I have to blow the fuckin motor up. The only dsm shop we have around my way is a place called etmotorsports (see etmotorsports.com) but there more based on 4G63’s. My bad on the misconception but this is what I was going to use for the fuel not the cool can, even though it may put more stress on the fuel pump but o well.

http://www.oconeeoffroad.com/servlet/the-21426/Jeep-Flex-dsh-a-dsh-Lite--/Detail

EDIT: For slo2g - Yes I am well aware of mark along with dj and others. Mark also has a huge ass turbo to where he doesn’t have too worry about compressor efficiency heat issues as to his turbo is rated at 800hp!! I would love to know what octane he has that beast running on because I know its not pump gas. Looking at the turbo foggy uses it should be sweet for dd, I just was questioning him on how he was going to achieve 25psi. I know it can be done, no shit, but what are the “everyday” requirements to run 10:5.1 boosted if you don’t have e85 close by. As stated if you “read” - after you reach 20 psi on a gt-28 it will start blowing heat into the intake causing knock. I’ve ran into this prob before and on both turbos, I know the gt25 it maxes out somewhere around 15 psi before it starts. Now back to fuel, im done talkin bout 10:5

-Rafiel

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Slo2g	Sep-28-08 06:15 PM
Member since Feb 10th 2006 1074 posts,

#110139, "RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?"
In response to Reply # 8

10.5 compression has been done on here before by the way 96 if you didn't know. DJ420 and Mark have done this and made good numbers too.

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foggy45	Sep-28-08 08:09 PM
Member since Dec 28th 2003 1032 posts,

#110140, "RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?"
In response to Reply # 9

lol sorry about that, i kinda picked 25 lbs of boost at random just for some numbers. and yes looking at the compressor map of the GT-RS it wouldn't be a good choice if i needed the 25 lbs.

honestly a nice even 350-375 with headroom would make me mighty happy to take to the track. granted it will be slower then the integras and silvias running around with 350 hp because of the bloated car we drive but it will still be fun.

and no i havent bought my 10.5's emoji . . . yet, as, like you said, there are a bit more factor to throw into the formulas to get a better number then the quick ones i threw out.

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bullettdsm	Sep-29-08 10:10 AM
Donating 2GNT member 2676 posts,

#110141, "RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?"
In response to Reply # 6

Originally posted by foggy45
Disco Potato

YeeHaw!! Lol! The Honda turbo. It matches up so good to the Honda motors; I would love for someone to try it on ours to see if we get the same type of curves and power range.

Stick with the 10.5 comp

My gas, in the turbo, is directly from the pump, well.....er, its 110 oct but I get it right from the pump emoji

But I will have two maps for my car. One will be street at 93 oct and the other will be the race set-up. Remember also, I am cooling my air charge with the w/a set-up (Yes, in winter I plan antifreeze). My intent is to run around 350whp on the street. Turbo barely breathing but more power than I need.

Originally posted by foggy45
to draw the air through my intercooler and radiator and out through a vented hood.

Atta boy! I see many people trying to vent the air into the engine area to help cool it. I believe its about the release of the air. You gotta find ways to vent it out.

I'm glad you are taking such a great interest in the cooling aspects of setting up a car. I think its a subject that doesn't get enough attention. People get exhaust parts coated because it looks cool. They should be coating them to help retain/move the heat out as well as keep the air lighter. They put in vents because they think that looks cool......oops, never mind I'm getting on that stump.

Keep looking to get rid of that heat.

MB

Captain Caveman

96 RS Turbo 11.414 @ 119.62 MSNS, Crower 2 NA cams, BW366, 10.5 comp, UDP, 60mm TB, W/A intercooler, 3.55 tranny 567.9whp 430tq
97 RS NA 13.188 @ 103.87 MSnS powered 12.5 comp, Crower 3's and 219.4whp with 175tq
98 RS DD 12.5 comp on stock ECU, LTH, Crower 2's, Koni, GC, Hypercoil, DG hats
99 OZ 5sp Stocker 15.856 @ 85.97
99 GS stocker auto 17.7@77mph!

wiki home page:http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=bullettdsm

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Warmage12	Feb-09-10 01:05 PM
Member since May 24th 2008 168 posts,

#129558, "RE: Fuel cooling for detonation control?"
In response to Reply # 11

Damn. Why did this topic stop. Can I get some updates? I was enjoying the reading the. It just stoped. Lol.

95 RS sold...

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