#106967, "Fuel, Spark, Good Timing and NO FIRE.......(kinda long)"
Ok I searched and couldn't find anything that described my situation (perhaps I didn't look hard enough) but here is my situation...
Yesterday I spent the day putting my engine back together and then putting it in my car later that night (with the help of my dad and a buddy of mine). We get everything all hooked up, oil primed and ready to start up but when we cranked it over we got cranking but no fire. After thinking about i I realized when I timed it I timed it 180* from what it should be, so today my dad and I fixed that. Well we get everything all hooked up this time (with everything timed up but possibly just a fraction of a tooth off) and go to fire it up and still the same problem.
We took out a spark plug and connected it to the wires and touched it to my exhaust manifold and there is a bright orange spark (they are Bosch platinum +4's that I've been running for awhile now) and the plugs smell of fuel. Another thing we noticed is that we can smell fuel out the tailpipe like the engine is flooded or something. In addition to all of this, when we cranked it over 2 of the many times, we got a backfire sound from the exhaust manifold/downpipe area after the key is placed in the off position following the crank attempt. Yesterday during my engine install, the downstream O2 sensor got wrapped up in something and 2 of the 3 wires had been separated from the downpipe.
We checked on the cam angle sensor and made sure it was connected, we looked over all connections and even checked on the crank positioning sensor. Everything (except the downstream O2 and my EGR sensors) checked out fine. So with this said, what might be causing this? Any help would be great. Thanks!
-Ben Black 1999 RS
Basic mods and a South Bend OFE-SS Clutch ~150bhp.....for now!
#106969, "RE: Fuel, Spark, Good Timing and NO FIRE.......(kinda long)" In response to Reply # 1
How did you prime the oil? Disconect something and crank till it builds pressure? I read over your post a few times thinkin about it and is it possible you flooded the engine when you tried to prime the oil pump? Maybe by unplugging the coil but leaving power to the injectors? That would most certianly explain all the excess fuel... I did a compression check on my car once and did exactly that, funny things can happen after a long day of working on your car. Especially after it has been sitting for a while and excitement blocks out simple thought.
Creative thinking? Ingenuity? Hell, It's just an obsession!
99 Eclipse GS turbo: MSpowered, everything custom built, 223.8 HP-199.8 TQ @8psi through auto-tranny. The first time around...
#106970, "RE: Fuel, Spark, Good Timing and NO FIRE.......(kinda long)" In response to Reply # 2
The o2 sensor wires broke off right at the sensor, so the only way I can think of replacing it would be to somehow flare out the metal housing and try to splice some wires back together. I don't know, I'm not near my car now since I'm back down at college but I got a couple people back home working on it for me.
As for priming, what I did, was disconnect both relays up by the firewall (black is ignition and gray is fuel...i think unless I got the two mixed up) and to be safe unplugged my coil pack as well. Then I cranked and cranked and cranked to the point that after a few seconds of cranking my oil pressure light (until I get my gauge installed) went out. It took about 5 cranks lasting about 15 seconds a piece, which was probably too much, but idk.
Another guy that is the brother in law of my buddy has a 1G eclipse, and went through the same problem not too long ago. He said his problem was his cam angle sensor being fried. Which makes sense, because about 3 months ago (right after my initial rebuild) the only way to get my car to fire up was to wiggle the CAS. I was told something like each time you disconnect the CAS from the block it loses ohms or something. Not sure how true this is, but it is a place to start. I'm probably going to replace that in a week or so. Hopefully this solves the problem, so can anyone think of anything besides the CAS and CPS as being the culprit?
-Ben Black 1999 RS
Basic mods and a South Bend OFE-SS Clutch ~150bhp.....for now!
#106973, "RE: Fuel, Spark, Good Timing and NO FIRE.......(kinda long)" In response to Reply # 3
not really unless you're POSITIVE you're got your cam gears dialed correctly. Do the whole, set 'em a tooth ahead then rotate the crank 720 deg. and see if they line up once they're tension. Do you have any codes comming up?
The O2 will be an issue once you get it running, but shouldn't affect it off the start.
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'95 GS w/ t3/t4b FMIC, diy piping & RFL BOV MS2-Extra Fuel&Spark 50 lb/hr Holley injectors w/ 1:1 RRFPR JE 8.8:1 dish w/ Hastings Rings Eagle Rods w/ ARP bolts ARP Head studs Mild port/polish head 3" custom DP/cat section, 3" PIT catback dual MBC - 12 psi / 20psi
#106974, "RE: Fuel, Spark, Good Timing and NO FIRE.......(kinda long)" In response to Reply # 4
If your getting spark then your getting a signal from both the crank and cam sensors.
Pull all 4 plugs and do a compression test. I dont think your motor is bad but I have a feeling your timing is fubared. You have spark, you have fuel, you should have air. all you need is compression. If your timing is far enough out then you wont fire.
Here is a sure way to check timing without tearing ti all apart.
1. Take off Valve cover 2. Rotate crank to TDC - you will have to "feel" for TDC through a spark plug hole with a 1/4" extension. 3. Look at the cams, between cyl 1 and 2 there is a unfinished journal, locate the holes in the journals. One hole per cam. 4. Rotate the assy till the holes point up. 5. In each hole, insert a 1/4" extension of some type of small socket. 6. With the Crank at TDC, both holes should point perpendicular to the head. If not then your timing is off.
#106981, "RE: Fuel, Spark, Good Timing and NO FIRE.......(kinda long)" In response to Reply # 6
I don't have a compression gauge, and unless I'm looking at the wrong one (which is highly possible lol) they are over $50. That it just slightly out of my budget for another few weeks. What my dad did do to check for air was pull plug #1 and stick his finger down the hole to feel for air. It was getting air, but without doign an actual test i'm not 100% positive.
A buddy of mine is going to check my cam sensor this weekend. We think it is toast, not the motor (i don't understand where that surfaced...I probably made it seem that way or something, my bad). About 3 months ago I was having this same problem (as I stated in my last post), but it was intermittently, so what we did to compensate before was wiggle the cam sensor a bit. He gonna try that this weekend and if that still doesn't fix it, I'll be tearing off the valve cover to double check my timing. Then if that is fine I'll be doing a compression test. I'm hoping that it is just my cam sensor (I need to replace that thing anyhow...it been giving me problems lately which is another reason we are thinking that is the problem), and if not I'll be moving onto the next thing.
I'll be in town the evening of the 13th through the holidays and until Jan. 6. Hopefully if it isn't running soon it will be running by time break is over.
-Ben Black 1999 RS
Basic mods and a South Bend OFE-SS Clutch ~150bhp.....for now!
#107008, "RE: Fuel, Spark, Good Timing and NO FIRE.......(kinda long)" In response to Reply # 8
New cam sensor...still no fire at all. So back to the drawing board...back at home they are going to double check timing by taking off the valve cover either in the next few days or when I get home, I have no clue. If all checks good, I'm looking at my compression. I wont be able to get a tester until I go back home on the 13th, so if need be that it what I get to spend my winter break doing. Suppose my compression is fubared (either rings are damaged/bent or they are misaligned) I get to pull my engine and do it all over again?...or is there an easier way? This whole mess is starting to frustrate the shit out of me.
-Ben Black 1999 RS
Basic mods and a South Bend OFE-SS Clutch ~150bhp.....for now!
#107020, "RE: Fuel, Spark, Good Timing and NO FIRE.......(kinda long)" In response to Reply # 9 Dec-02-07 01:40 PM by justins71
hmm... well you won't have the best compression until the rings will have seated - so just remember that when testing. check those cams like in the above posts (1/4" extension method works well) compared to crank. When you put the engine together, you did stagger the ring gaps, right? And another thing if you think it's flooding, you can hold the throttle all the way down and it'll put the ECU into "flood-clear mode" which cuts off the fuel but keeps sparking to burn off the excess fuel. Just a future-reference tip - many cars have it nowadays.
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'95 GS w/ t3/t4b FMIC, diy piping & RFL BOV MS2-Extra Fuel&Spark 50 lb/hr Holley injectors w/ 1:1 RRFPR JE 8.8:1 dish w/ Hastings Rings Eagle Rods w/ ARP bolts ARP Head studs Mild port/polish head 3" custom DP/cat section, 3" PIT catback dual MBC - 12 psi / 20psi
#107084, "RE: Fuel, Spark, Good Timing and NO FIRE.......(kinda long)" In response to Reply # 12
As far as I'm aware, the rings were staggered unless they got bumped somehow during install. But wouldn't lined up rings just cause oil to get past the pistons or very low (like unable to hear when hand cranking)? Should still fire up right, or at least attempt to? I don't know if I mentioned this before, but when I crank, my interior lights dim...which makes me wonder if i possibly missed a ground somewhere. Was gonna unhook all electrics for starts and plug them all back in with my existing grounds bolted to another metal surface. I dunno, I'm gonna look at it myself when I get back home next week for the holidays. Hopefully I'll be able to find an answer. Can anyone else think of any other possibilities other than the above mentioned? If I can get a list of possible reasons as to why it is this way, it wouldn't help me troubleshoot.
I don't know if this helps or anything, but I have compression for 1)I can hear it upon hand cranking and 2) can feel it with a spark plug being removed...so for some reason I'm thinking it's electrical or reversed timing. I'm not that big into troubleshooting this stuff though, just trying to think.
-Ben Black 1999 RS
Basic mods and a South Bend OFE-SS Clutch ~150bhp.....for now!
#107086, "RE: Fuel, Spark, Good Timing and NO FIRE.......(kinda long)" In response to Reply # 14
Just an update...my buddy back home took the cover off for me today and sure enough the exhaust cam hole was straight down, and the intake hole was straight up. Guess I didn't re-time it after all..... But anyhow, it took him only 1 hour to reset the timing, and sure enough fired right up and now he is currently running it around the block and such to test it and make sure everything is running fine, then he is checking for leaks when he returns. I think he should have done it the other way, but oh well lol. Anyhow, car is running again so that is a plus. Thanks so much for everyone's help and advice. It wouldn't be running without everyone's input in helping me trouble shoot. Thanks again
-Ben
-Ben Black 1999 RS
Basic mods and a South Bend OFE-SS Clutch ~150bhp.....for now!
#107088, "RE: Fuel, Spark, Good Timing and NO FIRE.......(kinda long)" In response to Reply # 15
Glad to hear what was ultimately a success story (just took a while to get there). Of course that is provided that you don't have any bent valves. Appreciate you posting up the problem because, honestly many of us do follow along and work our brains to figure it out.
Happy cruising
Captain Caveman
96 RS Turbo 11.414 @ 119.62 MSNS, Crower 2 NA cams, BW366, 10.5 comp, UDP, 60mm TB, W/A intercooler, 3.55 tranny 567.9whp 430tq 97 RS NA 13.188 @ 103.87 MSnS powered 12.5 comp, Crower 3's and 219.4whp with 175tq 98 RS DD 12.5 comp on stock ECU, LTH, Crower 2's, Koni, GC, Hypercoil, DG hats 99 OZ 5sp Stocker 15.856 @ 85.97 99 GS stocker auto 17.7@77mph!
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