Well, here goes.

After a year, I finally got my engine rebuilt and bought a new trans (my 2nd one in this car). Well, I put it in and hooked everything up except the radiator, fans, and downpipe.

I got in the car to start it, and nothing. When I turn the key nothing happens. We checked the starter (it turns the engine if you bridge the terminals), fuses, battery, ground connections, everything that I could think of. I put the alternator plug in, and tightened the nut on the wire to it. I plugged in my crank position sensor, oil pressure sending unit, everything. I capped the cruise control vacuum port. The coil pack is plugged in. The cam position sensor is plugged in. All my grounds are connected.

I was just gonna make sure that it ran but it dont. When I turn the key into the ignite position the radio goes off completely. The battery seems to have a charge (its brand new, 6 months old) I checked the connections on the starter. I took the EGR off.

Is there something that I am missing? The starter has power, but nothing. I've worked so hard and put so much time and money into it. It is so dissappointing. I can't even get mad, I'm just so disappointed/puzzled.

When I timed the engine I put the mark on the crank sprocket half a tooth before TDC, and put everything else in time just like the book says. When the engine did rotate (from bridging the starter over) it sounded like it was going gulp, gulp, gulp. Is that normal? Like I said in an earlier post, I don't mess with my 420a much because it is my daily driver or was. I have had so much trouble out of this car. My '95 with 189k didn't have any problems. My pretty good modded '90 GST didn't have a single problem except for spinning the tires.

Sorry guys, I guess I just need to talk to people that understands what I am going through.

Any advice is GREATLY appreciated! Any questions just ask if you feel I left something out.

'95 Eclipse RS (sold)
'99 Eclipse GS OZ (sold)
'90 Eclipse GST (sold)
'90 Talon TSI AWD (sold)
'94 Plymouth Laser RS (sold)
'04 Audi A4 Quattro 1.8t (sold)
'08 Silverado LTZ (daily)

DirtMegirt
Wiki Contributor

I can't get it to turn over. I acts like the starter isn't even attached. I turn the key all the way and nothing.

I ask about the gulping b/c I was afraid my timing might have been out, but that wouldn't cause it not to rotate over.

Both marks on the cams were aligned facing each other and parallel with that line on the head. If the crank sprocket arrow is lined up with the timing mark for it does that mean it is on TDC. I mean #3 couldn't been on top dead center could it? I admit that I didn't check it, but still again, that shouldn't cause it to act like it isn't getting power to the starter cause it is. Where is the switch located for the clutch at? Maybe that could be causing the problem? It just acts like it doesn't know that I am turning the key to the ignite position.

Thanks for the quick reply! Any more input is greatly appreciated.

'95 Eclipse RS (sold)
'99 Eclipse GS OZ (sold)
'90 Eclipse GST (sold)
'90 Talon TSI AWD (sold)
'94 Plymouth Laser RS (sold)
'04 Audi A4 Quattro 1.8t (sold)
'08 Silverado LTZ (daily)

DirtMegirt
Wiki Contributor

put a test light to the wire from the starter switch and see if you're getting power to the solenoid on the side of the starter (the smaller wire) if not then you need to trace that wire back to the switch and see where you're losing power.

Erik P.
Official 2GNT thread Hijacker
Some say that he's driven over more Covenant than he's shot, and that his grenades aren't where you'd expect them to be...
All we know is, He's not The Stig... But he is The Stig's Spartan cousin!

My dad bridged them with 2 screwdriver's while I was inside and said that it sparked. I will try to check it this afternoon. I'll keep this updated. Thanks!

'95 Eclipse RS (sold)
'99 Eclipse GS OZ (sold)
'90 Eclipse GST (sold)
'90 Talon TSI AWD (sold)
'94 Plymouth Laser RS (sold)
'04 Audi A4 Quattro 1.8t (sold)
'08 Silverado LTZ (daily)

I didn't get mine started either. I meant to say when I rotated the engine with the starter bridged over. I was in a hurry and wasn't clear. Sorry bout that.

'95 Eclipse RS (sold)
'99 Eclipse GS OZ (sold)
'90 Eclipse GST (sold)
'90 Talon TSI AWD (sold)
'94 Plymouth Laser RS (sold)
'04 Audi A4 Quattro 1.8t (sold)
'08 Silverado LTZ (daily)

If you're unable to crank the car when you turn the key, the starter either A) isn't tripping the relay, engaging the starter, or B) the connection to the starter is bad.

Consider tracing the main lead from the battery to the starter. Make sure the connections are good at both the battery and starter. If there's any corrosion at the battery, it might have worked it's way into the wire, bringing resistance up or something. When you short the starter like you did, all you did was circumvent the relay.

As for the gulp-gulp-gulp, that sounds like a 180-out cam to me too. Been there. Done that. Got the keychain at the airport. Timing shouldn't have anything to do with the engine cranking, but a cam 180* out will make the gulping sound and, since the CMP and CPS signals won't match, the ECU will trip the ASD relay, preventing the car from lighting off.

I'm sure this is going to be something little and stupid that's setting you back. Wish I could tell you more, but you've got a real poseur going on...

Erik P.
Official 2GNT thread Hijacker
Some say that he's driven over more Covenant than he's shot, and that his grenades aren't where you'd expect them to be...
All we know is, He's not The Stig... But he is The Stig's Spartan cousin!

just a dumb though neutral/park safty switch or maybe a bad clutch safety switch

I thought about the clutch switch too, but the car is a '99 and has 59k on it. It worked perfectly before I took the engine out.

This is gonna sound like a stupid question, but how could I have gotten the timing 180* out?

When I set the timing I aligned both timing marks on the cams, and the crank sprocket with the timing mark on the block. Am I missing something really simple?

I will check the timing tomorrow to try to make sure that it is right, but if the marks line up and the crank sprocket it right, then Im bumfuzzuled again.

I rotated the engine several times when it was still out, and it appeared to have stayed in time.

My dad checked the lower connection (to the switch), and he said that it didn't have power when I had the switch on, but I want to make sure off that because I was turning the switch on and off a lot.

I appreciate all the replies, and hopefully will be able to find out more info on it tomorrow evening. Thanks again guys!

'95 Eclipse RS (sold)
'99 Eclipse GS OZ (sold)
'90 Eclipse GST (sold)
'90 Talon TSI AWD (sold)
'94 Plymouth Laser RS (sold)
'04 Audi A4 Quattro 1.8t (sold)
'08 Silverado LTZ (daily)

Take a look at the pic in my original post. The intake cam sproket has two machined marks on it as does the exhaust sproket. You can get the marks to line up in the middle even if one of the cams is 180 out. What you need to do is make sure you have the cams in the proper position and then line up the marks. Also to note in the pic, arrows were marked on the sprokets to identify which of the marks have to align to have the timing correct. Another way to check for proper alignment is to pull your valve cover and look for the holes that are notched in the camshafts themselves. The holes are located closest to the timing belt side and both should be facing up. Like I said before, if you can see your cam sprokets, make sure they look just like the ones in the pic with the intake cam lettering ledgible and the exhaust cam lettering upside down, and the crankshaft sproket at top dead center. If they are all lined up, your timing is correct.

DirtMegirt
Wiki Contributor

As a quick and easy way to see if the cams are lined up, pull the valve cover. There are two holes in the cams. They need to be facing up whenever you have the motor at top dead center. If they aren't, one of the cams is off.

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I checked it on lunch today (I was on delivery). The intake is legible, and the passenger side is upside down. What is the relay that you talk about if they are 180 out? Could that be bad?

'95 Eclipse RS (sold)
'99 Eclipse GS OZ (sold)
'90 Eclipse GST (sold)
'90 Talon TSI AWD (sold)
'94 Plymouth Laser RS (sold)
'04 Audi A4 Quattro 1.8t (sold)
'08 Silverado LTZ (daily)

if you're 180 out that relay won't "turn on" and you get no fire, if it was bad you'd just get normal cranking. it's the gulping sound that makes us think everything is 180 out

Erik P.
Official 2GNT thread Hijacker
Some say that he's driven over more Covenant than he's shot, and that his grenades aren't where you'd expect them to be...
All we know is, He's not The Stig... But he is The Stig's Spartan cousin!

Where is the relay located? I checked the timing and according to the pic above it is in time. I will take a few pics with my digital camera in the next hour or two.

'95 Eclipse RS (sold)
'99 Eclipse GS OZ (sold)
'90 Eclipse GST (sold)
'90 Talon TSI AWD (sold)
'94 Plymouth Laser RS (sold)
'04 Audi A4 Quattro 1.8t (sold)
'08 Silverado LTZ (daily)

it's on the firewall in front of the driver, remember, your crank turns 2X for every cam turn. that one messed me up the firs time I did it

Erik P.
Official 2GNT thread Hijacker
Some say that he's driven over more Covenant than he's shot, and that his grenades aren't where you'd expect them to be...
All we know is, He's not The Stig... But he is The Stig's Spartan cousin!

Ok it's update time again.

Thursday evening I went ahead and pulled the engine again.

I checked the timing and it is perfect. I checked all the sensors (for damage) and to make sure that I wasn't overlooking any when installing the engine. I hooked everything up again slowly and went over everything twice. I checked my grounds (intake and trans. bolt) and made sure that they was tight. All sensors are connected except the plugs for the EGR. I installed the radiator and its connections to make sure (it wasn't installed last time when I went to make sure the engine would try to start).

I just don't know guys! This one really has me puzzled. Where exactly is the clutch switch at? I know it's general location but I just wanna make sure that Im looking at the right thing and where on the firewall is that relay that you guys have talked about? I guess that I will check those. I just don't know what to do for it anymore.

I appreciate all the help that you guys have been so far, and will be in the future as well.

'95 Eclipse RS (sold)
'99 Eclipse GS OZ (sold)
'90 Eclipse GST (sold)
'90 Talon TSI AWD (sold)
'94 Plymouth Laser RS (sold)
'04 Audi A4 Quattro 1.8t (sold)
'08 Silverado LTZ (daily)

bump

'95 Eclipse RS (sold)
'99 Eclipse GS OZ (sold)
'90 Eclipse GST (sold)
'90 Talon TSI AWD (sold)
'94 Plymouth Laser RS (sold)
'04 Audi A4 Quattro 1.8t (sold)
'08 Silverado LTZ (daily)

Standing in front of the car, the fuel pump and ASD relays are side-by-side on the firewall, by the washer fluid resie. They're about 1"x1"x2" and in a tidy little bracket. Hope that makes sense.

The clutch switch is located behind the clutch pedal under your dash. Should be fairly simple to spot with a flashlight. I assume it's a normally open switch, which closes the circuit when the clutch pedal is down. Removing the switch and connecting the two wires leading to it should circumvent it. (Just be careful, as this will allow you to run the starter when the car is in gear!) It's worth a shot for the non-cranking issue.

As for the non-firing thing, I'm not sure, man. Your description of checking the timing, above, didn't make sense. Both gears are on the passenger side!

At this venture, I'd suggest getting the car to at least crank like it should. Then see if you've got any new CEL codes. If you don't begin testing for the following things:

- Fuel
- Spark
- Compression

You need all three of those for the engine to run, as you know, so making sure you've got spark while cranking is a good place to start. If you've got spark, then make sure you're actually getting fuel. Listen for the pump priming and maybe remove the feed line at the rail to be sure it's got fuel in the rail. If none of these "simple" checks help any*, yank that valve cover and make sure the holes in the cams are where they should be as mentioned above when you have the engine timed.

*Note: Loss of crank or cam position signal to the ECU will result in activation of the ASD relay, which would mean no fuel or spark, either, so be sure you don't have a CEL for either of these. They can both be back probed at either their sensor connection or at the ECU. In both cases, you would be looking for an alternating 5VDC while cranking. Keep in mind that the cams turn at 1/2 crank speed, so this sensor will be best to start with, as far as knowing what to look for on your meter screen.

Good luck!

EDIT:
Should you have to redo the timing (again), consider the following mod to your lower tBelt cover for future convenience.

- Cut a hole in the lower cover large enough that you can look straight through it to see the lower timing marks on the sprocket and oil pump.
- Install the UDP in such a manner as to align one of the holes or openings in the pulley with the mark on the crank sprocket.

This will allow you to always be able to look through the pulley and cover to check your lower timing mark, which can save you an absolute SHITTON of time when possible timing issues arise in the future.

Again, good luck, sir.

Ok, today I tested the starter wire (small one on the bottom) and there was no voltage reading on the ohmmeter. I took the relays off, and they have power on the plug that goes into the relay, but I found a diagram with which terminals to read on the relay so I will try that next.

Now for the next problem, while I was sitting in the car reading my dad tried to override the starter again by crossing the terminals on the starter. Now, no lights, cd player, nothing comes on. I checked the fuses under the hood but nothing is blown that I can tell (none of them are burnt/broken on the arches of the fuse). Got any ideas what is screwed up now?

All the help is so appreciated you guys! If I get to come to the shoot-out this year I'll grill something for everyone that has helped or something. Thanks again!

'95 Eclipse RS (sold)
'99 Eclipse GS OZ (sold)
'90 Eclipse GST (sold)
'90 Talon TSI AWD (sold)
'94 Plymouth Laser RS (sold)
'04 Audi A4 Quattro 1.8t (sold)
'08 Silverado LTZ (daily)

first, get your dad away from the car! double check the fuses, inside and out.

Erik P.
Official 2GNT thread Hijacker
Some say that he's driven over more Covenant than he's shot, and that his grenades aren't where you'd expect them to be...
All we know is, He's not The Stig... But he is The Stig's Spartan cousin!

Ok, just a question. The first problem you were trying to fix is the problem that you can not get the starter to engage when you turn you key from the run to start posistion? But yet, it works when you jump the connections! It isn't going to be any of the two relays on the fire wall, ASD and fuel pump if i remember correctly. I think i have had that happen to me, turned out to be the KeySwitch silonoid in the steering coloum. I changed it and it went away. I believe it wasn't that expensive, and only took 5 minutes to change it. Problem never returned!

One step forward, fall back down the stairs! Jesus, man. You could really use a break. I'll keep my fingers crossed that all this shorting and sparking hasn't fried your ECU to hell, okay?

As mentioned, check all your fuses and links. In-car and under hood. Get your most recent issue resolved before you worry about anything else. Get the electronics working again.

Then forget all about this gulping, non-running engine of yours and just focus on the starter issue. Did you bypass the clutch switch? Disconnect the battery and re-do all your connections at the battery and starter. Make sure contacts are clean and secure before connecting the battery back up. You might also want to check out page 2-17 in your Chilton's for a picture of where to find the starter relay under the HVAC controls. Looks like it's "the one on the right" to me, but there's also info on how to test that relay while you're there. This is close to the SRS equipment, so might be a good idea to just leave that battery disconnected for a while.

Only when you can turn the key and have the car crank normally should you worry about the non-run issue. There are a number of troubleshooting steps to take which require cranking the engine over, so you don't want to be getting medieval with screwdrivers and sparks like you are now. As you've just learned, it's not the most conducive to long term solutions. All shorting the starter like that tells you is that the starter is okay. Your primary problem is the connection between your key and that starter. Fortunately, it's one of the simpler systems in the car.

BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD!

(And I brought my Chilton's up from the garage for this shit.)

Trust me, I know what you are saying about one step forward ten backwards, but the starter thing I couldn't help, unfortunately. I told him not to do anything, but I wasn't paying attention to anything but what I was doing.

The minute everything died, I thought about the computer, but I hope that was not the problem. Im going up to the garage in a few minutes to check the relays, and I will post the details of it in a couple of hours, and also if the computer hopefully isn't fried.

Like you said, getting the electronics working and getting the car to crank is #1. It should be an easier fix to figure out why it won't start (once it starts cranking on its own).

I don't like doing things the ghetto way like bypassing the relay, that's just my dads old school approach I guess. I try not to yell at him because he wants to help so bad, but he just don't understand what we aren't in 1970 and there are different ways of doing things now.

I guess if nothing else, I'm learning a good amount of patience. Eventually though, everything will be new if I keep having to replace stuff (which I hope that I don't).

Anyways though, thanks again for all the help.

BTW, my new Chilton's should be here in a couple of days. A dude borrowed mine and never brought it back. All I have currently is a Haynes manual. Again, thanks for everything.

'95 Eclipse RS (sold)
'99 Eclipse GS OZ (sold)
'90 Eclipse GST (sold)
'90 Talon TSI AWD (sold)
'94 Plymouth Laser RS (sold)
'04 Audi A4 Quattro 1.8t (sold)
'08 Silverado LTZ (daily)

Update time!

Ok, first and foremost, the computer's still alive.

Then I checked the starter wire again. No power. The big wire (upper) reads about 12.5 volts.

From there I went to the relays on the firewall. The fuel pump is working so I didn't check it. The MPI (ASD) relay had power on the plug.* I also removed the relay itself from the firewall and checked it.** It is fine.

I then proceded to wire the two wires for the clutch switch together ( I actually made a jumper wire that I placed in the plug), and that did nothing for cranking the car either.

So now should I pull the ignition switch? Is there a way to test it? If so, then I will pull it and test it.

* In terminals 2/8. It showed 12.5 or so volts on the ohmmeter.
In terminals 4/6. It showed about 3.5/4 volts on the ohmmeter.
There is a diagram on 4-3, 4-4 in the Haynes Manual

** I checked it according to the instructions listed in the above pages in the Haynes.
First, I checked between 4 and 6 and it was ok.
Then, I checked 2 and 8 and there was no continuity.
I then checked it using the battery and jumper wires on the 4 and 6 terminals, and
put the ohmmeter on 2 and 8. It checked out ok.

'95 Eclipse RS (sold)
'99 Eclipse GS OZ (sold)
'90 Eclipse GST (sold)
'90 Talon TSI AWD (sold)
'94 Plymouth Laser RS (sold)
'04 Audi A4 Quattro 1.8t (sold)
'08 Silverado LTZ (daily)

I'm not sure if this is the best way to test the ignition switch, but you could pull the steering column cover and there should be a five or six wire harness under there. The ignition wire is black w/white stripe I believe. Try to start the car and see if you're getting 12v through that wire. The starter is black w/red stripe in the same location.

DirtMegirt
Wiki Contributor