I just completed this list of mods on my car (97 ESi):

Rebuilt head-ported and polished w/ stock valvetrain
MSD Coil w/ NGK plugs and MSD wires
Modern Performance TB
EBay header-back system w/ test pipe
OBX Intake Manifold
New Timing Belt installed by a shop which checked the timing as well
Also replaced all cylinder head gaskets

Engine has 158k on it.

From the moment it left the shop something felt terribly wrong. The car was sluggish, no acceleration at all and it was *gasp* KNOCKING. You can hear the engine pushing, but nothing was going to the wheels. I brought it back and the shop just passed it off as due to the mods I installed. On the way home, the car missed, I pulled over and the PCM threw the following codes on the keydance: 12,11,51, and 21.

My questions are-did anyone else with similar modifications experience the car feeling like it was driving in low gear (no top end, very torquey)? Is it the mods causing this? Did the shop fuck the timing up? Or is there something else wrong in the valve train? Anyone experienced with these mods that can offer some advice?

How did it run before you had the timing done? If it ran fine then sure they goofed the timing up.

How does it idle? Many times if the timing is off a couple teeth the Idle will shows signs of it.

Terry

The car ran like crap beforehand, but not with these symptoms. It had a bad valve seal leak and when the head gasket went, I decided to finally put the ported head on it. But it never lacked in performance like this..if you stepped on the gas it responded immediately. The car isn't blowing smoke anymore, but it's having these worse problems.

Idle holds between 800-1000 for about 5 minutes..then it loses it..and the PCM catches it before it stalls. It hasn't backfired once, but misses around 2500 rpm, usually right before it shifts (auto tranny). The engine sounds rough, almost like a diesel. And as I said, the car has absolutely no acceleration to it like it used to. It literally crawls uphill, I'm lucky if I can do 30 up one. You could put the pedal to the floor and have barely any result.

First off, it's not your mods. Now could something be installed incorrectly or defective etc.? Possibly. I presume that when you brought it in you did not have these problems?

I know they did the work and you paid for it etc. but if I was you I would check all my connections, staring with the crank sensor (though if this was disconnected, I don't think you could get it to run) and work your way up. If this is OK I would check timing marks. If I didn't feel comfortable doing it myself, I would have a qualified mitsu guy check the timing marks. From the statement that you attribute to the shop that did the work, I have NO trust there. With the codes that you are flashing and what you describe, my money would be on the timing.

MB

Captain Caveman

96 RS Turbo 11.414 @ 119.62 MSNS, Crower 2 NA cams, BW366, 10.5 comp, UDP, 60mm TB, W/A intercooler, 3.55 tranny 567.9whp 430tq
97 RS NA 13.188 @ 103.87 MSnS powered 12.5 comp, Crower 3's and 219.4whp with 175tq
98 RS DD 12.5 comp on stock ECU, LTH, Crower 2's, Koni, GC, Hypercoil, DG hats
99 OZ 5sp Stocker 15.856 @ 85.97
99 GS stocker auto 17.7@77mph!

wiki home page:http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=bullettdsm

I installed the mods and head..double and triple checked everything. Now timing is something I wouldn't mess around with yet. It's one thing to connect plugs and install bolt-ons, but another to do timing. I had a garage do the timing. I had a feeling something was not cool when I went there before the job was done and the one guy said to me "yea I had to call my buddy up and get a print-out of the timing diagram for your car". *sigh*

I truly appreciate all the help everyone has given me. I wanted to be sure it wasn't the modifications I did that caused this disaster, because I am receiving a lot of flack from the garage about that. It would be nice if they would admit some accountability, but all I am getting is-"your car wasn't made to handle power" or "it's a piece of tin crap, that engine isn't worth jack". The whole reason I even went to a shop was because I never did timing and I really didn't want to mess my engine up after putting that much money into it. Ironic, dontcha think?

On another note-before I made this post the PCM gave me a code detailing that the car was running lean. After checking connections, plug gap, and vaccuum lines I started it up. Now it is running insanely rich to the point my exhaust was black and covered my hand in soot after holding it there for only a few seconds.
-Kristina

I think im in the same boat with you, picked up a car today, mtx tranny, and i had atx tranny, and the atx felt so much faster, this car feels slow, slugish, and the timming is definitly off, and i dont have the slightiest clue where to begin

'95 GSX - New motor/turbo going in...
'95 TSi AWD - For sale...buy me!
'03.5 MazdaSpeed Protege - Stock daily driver
'97 CBR 600 - Purple is a real man's color

I have a feeling the cams are 180 degrees out. The Timing proceedure does not cover that last i checked it.

Easiest way to check the timing without pulling the valve cover is to:

1. Remove spark plugs
2. Remove coil pack and PCV hoses.
3. Remove valve cover
4. Take notive of two unfinished lobes on each cam between cylinder 1 and cylinder 2. Rotate the crank and notice those lobes will have Holes in them.
5. Turn the crank till both Holes are facing straight up
6. Using a long small screwdriver or a 1/4 extension that is 8" long, probe inside the #1 cylinder to see if the piston is a Top Dead Center.
7. If the piston is not at top dead center and those holes are facing straight up then your timing is way off.

NOTE: you can gently roll the crank back and forth to feel for the top dead center location of the #1 piston with a screwdriver in the #1 cylinder hole. DO NOT ROTATE THE CRANK WITHOUT HOLDING THE SCREWDRIVER, YOU DONT WANT THE SCREWDRIVER TO SCRATCH OR JAMB IN THE HOLE.

With the #1 piston at TDC the holes in the cams should face upwards. If you place a 1/4 extension in each hole, the extension should be perpendicular to the gasket surface of the head.


This sound semi difficult but it is very easy and accurate. I "Zero" my cam gears like this and rely on it. Never once has it failed me.

Terry

This is just a dumb question....but with that OBX intake manifold, is there a chance that the MAP sensor is just dangling in the engine bay? I know in the past there wasn't holes provided for the MAP sensor.

If that same shop installed your intake it doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility that they would have said "fuck it" and not did anything about it.

getty up

-kent-




'98 Talon...gone, but not forgotten

Good call by Kent to check for the MAP sensor. I've heard there has to be some kind of modification done to properly install it.

Terry, if you have a cam 180* out, you will have all the valves open at the same time. Zero compression = no run.

As for the shop talking that kind of game, I'd just chalk this up to a learning experience and never go back. The mods you're talking about might take your engine from 107whp to 115whp. Hardly punishing. Check for the MAP sensor and then recheck your timing marks. Let's work from there, okay?

Yeah good catch Kent.

Very true Driggs. Didnt really take that into consideration.