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Subject: "Tuning Concerns - types of management"

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Black Cotton	Aug-08-09 11:10 AM
Member since Oct 20th 2006 114 posts,

#127124, "Tuning Concerns - types of management"

I am currently started and idling on stock computer stock injectors, mated to hahn portfueler aka split second on 48# injectors, and MSD DIS 2.

EGT prob, no wideband yet but will have one soon, and just about every autometer gauge on the shelf.

i approached the local tuning shop today about dialing in my car, VERY reputable place that gets TONS of business and produces TONS of great stuff.

my problem is, after talking about what i have and where i want to be, he pretty much told me what i knew but didnt want to hear, that the stock PCM and the slow box of the SS unit just isnt what i want.

he recommends Accel DFI Gen 7 or similar.

i would really hate to start over AGAIN, however would like the advice of the forum.

for those of you that don't know my build, its a long tube twin scroll manifold, gt3578r, 3" turbo back, no emissions, built 2.0, built head, custom sheet aluminum intake, hahn FMIC, the rest is just semantics.

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Replies to this topic

RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management, VelocitaPaola, Aug-08-09 02:58 PM, #1

RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management, eclipse982nrRST, Aug-08-09 03:43 PM, #2

RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management, Black Cotton, Aug-08-09 03:49 PM, #3

RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management, Black Cotton, Aug-08-09 03:50 PM, #4

RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management, eclipse982nrRST, Aug-08-09 04:06 PM, #5

RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management, VelocitaPaola, Aug-08-09 08:39 PM, #6

RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management, Administrator

Star Turbo Talon, Aug-08-09 09:18 PM, #7

RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management, Black Cotton, Aug-08-09 09:54 PM, #8

RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management, VelocitaPaola, Aug-08-09 10:38 PM, #9

RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management, Moderator

bullettdsm, Aug-09-09 09:11 AM, #10

RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management, Black Cotton, Aug-09-09 10:33 AM, #11

RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management, Moderator

bullettdsm, Aug-09-09 04:31 PM, #12

VelocitaPaola	Aug-08-09 02:58 PM
Member since Jun 13th 2005 626 posts,

#127126, "RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management"
In response to Reply # 0
Aug-08-09 03:00 PM by VelocitaPaola

Originally posted by Black Cotton
my problem is, after talking about what i have and where i want to be, he pretty much told me what i knew but didnt want to hear, that the stock PCM and the slow box of the SS unit just isnt what i want.

Did he at least give you a reason?

Originally posted by Black Cottonhe recommends Accel DFI Gen 7 or similar. i would really hate to start over AGAIN, however would like the advice of the forum.

I don't blame you; and I also don't think it's necessary to start over from scratch. The only issue you face is that you're forcing three discrete systems to work in synchrony. One of those systems (the stock PCM) will fight you, but overall, your setup isn't anything out of the ordinary. Many people have used a similar configuration with very good results.

If you really wanted to switch to a more comprehensive engine management solution, which isn't a bad decision, but perhaps unnecessary, then Megasquirt is probably the better choice over Accel DFI.

-----------------------------------------

-Paul

Service Manuals and Guides

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eclipse982nrRST	Aug-08-09 03:43 PM
Member since Mar 16th 2004 6314 posts,

#127127, "RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management"
In response to Reply # 1

MSnS standalone for the win.

-MIKE-

Stroked 2.2L

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Black Cotton	Aug-08-09 03:49 PM
Member since Oct 20th 2006 114 posts,

#127128, "RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management"
In response to Reply # 1

stock pcm and split second are capacitive analog computers much slower then DFI's digital transistive...

he thinks that with my set up which is capable of over 500whp, is too much for such a primitive slower style computer to compensate and keep up.

with the DFI you can switch the ignition from waste spark to a squential spark system and run 4 individual coils or such to tune each cylinder for spark, and yada yada, their are benefits however the DFI unit is close to 2400 bucks, plus sensors, then i still have to have it tuned like the situation i am in now.

plus the DFI is a learning computer, it has a base map, and as you dyno it, it compensates fuel, then you just go in and add and take away fuel where it tells you to and how much, same with the spark... (so i am told by this guy i dont know much about it).

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Black Cotton	Aug-08-09 03:50 PM
Member since Oct 20th 2006 114 posts,

#127129, "RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management"
In response to Reply # 3

MS is analog to, he said hell work with it, but hes not too thrilled with it.

BTW did you get those pics mike?

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eclipse982nrRST	Aug-08-09 04:06 PM
Member since Mar 16th 2004 6314 posts,

#127130, "RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management"
In response to Reply # 4

Originally posted by Black Cotton
MS is analog to, he said hell work with it, but hes not too thrilled with it. BTW did you get those pics mike?

No I never did.

-MIKE-

Stroked 2.2L

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VelocitaPaola	Aug-08-09 08:39 PM
Member since Jun 13th 2005 626 posts,

#127133, "RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management"
In response to Reply # 3

Originally posted by Black Cotton
stock pcm and split second are capacitive analog computers much slower then DFI's digital transistive...

That doesn't make any sense. The transistor is the fundamental unit of every contemporary microprocessor, not the capacitor. Furthermore, analog computers are insanely rare; you wouldn't find one under the hood of your car. Lastly, the stock PCM runs relatively quickly at 8MHz.

Maybe something got lost in translation, but the things you just said sound like they came straight from the mouth of an uninformed, over-zealous salesman.

Originally posted by Black Cottonhe thinks that with my set up which is capable of over 500whp, is too much for such a primitive slower style computer to compensate and keep up. with the DFI you can switch the ignition from waste spark to a squential spark system and run 4 individual coils or such to tune each cylinder for spark, and yada yada, their are benefits however the DFI unit is close to 2400 bucks, plus sensors, then i still have to have it tuned like the situation i am in now. plus the DFI is a learning computer, it has a base map, and as you dyno it, it compensates fuel, then you just go in and add and take away fuel where it tells you to and how much, same with the spark... (so i am told by this guy i dont know much about it).

Nearly all of those features you mentioned are available and easily implemented with a Megasquirt system, for about a fifth of the cost of an Accel DFI system. In fact, those features are common to most engine management systems. If you can't fine tune the fuel and spark maps, then what's the point of an EMS?

-----------------------------------------

-Paul

Service Manuals and Guides

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Star Turbo Talon	Aug-08-09 09:18 PM
Member since Oct 21st 2003 8331 posts,

#127134, "RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management"
In response to Reply # 6

Honestly is 500whp is your goal, I would consider a Haltech or AEM unit. MSNS is nice but it does have its limitations. Its a great unti for us budget minded doing 400 at the wheels. Haltech and AEM ar far superior and with the right tuner will do far more.

The portfueler is a nice setup for someone concerned with emissions and driveability. That setup was designed for the guy runnign down to the Illinois emission center ever 2 years. THe tuner is right about the sampling rates of the Factory PCM and SS box. But that is a compromise dfor a cheapp unit. MSNS is no different.

Sorry......I know it wasnt what you wanted to hear. For what its worth i would run the portfeuler for a couple years and get it up to 400WHP and some tuning under your belt. Use it as a learning tool.

Terry

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Black Cotton	Aug-08-09 09:54 PM
Member since Oct 20th 2006 114 posts,

#127135, "RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management"
In response to Reply # 7

well terry that is the problem i am having i guess.

i can kinda self tune the port-fueler, get used to tuning on the set springs in the wastegates aka roughly 11lbs, and basically store my datalogs and make my own adjustments.

or i can just get it over with, dump everything and buy the DFI or EMS ect, install it, hand the car over to him and let him do what he has been known to do in my area for years.

i assume hes rec the DFI because that is what he feels most comfortable with.

his main reason mainly a concern is the amt of money i have in the motor and the slower sampling rates of the SS and the stock ignition map piggy backed by the DIS 2 for retard just wont be safe enough for 25+ lbs on such a large turbo. hes even concerned on track days that a simple air to air wont be enough, and wants me to convert to ice to air which would totally take away from my street-ability all together.

that is where i am torn. on one hand what i already have is more me friendly, where as the DFI will offer me substantially more power, safer on the track, and what this guy is telling me can be streetable at the same time.

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VelocitaPaola	Aug-08-09 10:38 PM
Member since Jun 13th 2005 626 posts,

#127136, "RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management"
In response to Reply # 8
Aug-08-09 10:39 PM by VelocitaPaola

You're right, that's quite a dilemma. At the stage you're at, every bit faster your car is, the less suitable it is for the street. I agree with Terry, though; consider keeping the PortFueler for now before making the decision to upgrade down the road.

-----------------------------------------

-Paul

Service Manuals and Guides

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bullettdsm	Aug-09-09 09:11 AM
Donating 2GNT member 2676 posts,

#127142, "RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management"
In response to Reply # 8

Originally posted by Black Cotton
hes even concerned on track days that a simple air to air wont be enough, and wants me to convert to ice to air which would totally take away from my street-ability all together. .

Just my opinion BUT.....I took on the W/A with the intention of showing that it could be used in a daily driver situation. I was wrong (certainly for our area). After running through the winter, it was a PITA to maintain (and I wasn't even running the turbo). Had to watch the water all the time. Needed to put in anti freeze so the lines wouldn't freeze up (though they did indeed freeze up. I believe due to the fact that the "water" was mostly standing still. I ended up having to buy another pump). The little front intercooler I got, developed pin holes in the coils (one from impact on the exterior and another looks like it might be from the interior).

While the W/A, when running properly, can bring IAT's to ambient, or lower (I'm a big proponent of the effects of cooling on horsepower), for a daily, I just didn't find it practical.

As for a tuner, I'm going to stick with MSnS to see how far we can go with it.

Oh, one more thing, our engines are hardy motherf**kers. Don't be quite so afraid of knock with these. I've never been knock limited with the NA (110 oct now, with 12.5 comp). And the turbo has showed no signs of detonation (I have pulled the head after the water pump pulley fell off, and the piston had no signs. No signs of knock on the last dyno either, though we didn't push it that far with 24 lbs on a mixture of 3 gallons 93 and 3 gallons C-16, oops).

Captain Caveman

96 RS Turbo 11.414 @ 119.62 MSNS, Crower 2 NA cams, BW366, 10.5 comp, UDP, 60mm TB, W/A intercooler, 3.55 tranny 567.9whp 430tq
97 RS NA 13.188 @ 103.87 MSnS powered 12.5 comp, Crower 3's and 219.4whp with 175tq
98 RS DD 12.5 comp on stock ECU, LTH, Crower 2's, Koni, GC, Hypercoil, DG hats
99 OZ 5sp Stocker 15.856 @ 85.97
99 GS stocker auto 17.7@77mph!

wiki home page:http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=bullettdsm

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Black Cotton	Aug-09-09 10:33 AM
Member since Oct 20th 2006 114 posts,

#127143, "RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management"
In response to Reply # 10

so basically what your saying is, stick with what i have, run better gas and go with it?

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bullettdsm	Aug-09-09 04:31 PM
Donating 2GNT member 2676 posts,

#127150, "RE: Tuning Concerns - types of management"
In response to Reply # 11
Aug-09-09 04:31 PM by bullettdsm

Originally posted by Black Cotton
so basically what your saying is, stick with what i have, run better gas and go with it?

Honestly, I think that's the "better part of valor." I'm thinking, get what you can out of your current set-up. That will allow you to get used..........shit, I just realized as I'm typing this; basically what Terry said.

Originally posted by Black Cotton
i assume hes rec the DFI because that is what he feels most comfortable with.

Just a note here that you probably already know. Pretty much all good tuners are gonna recommend whatever they are more comfortable with (this is NOT a knock on the tuner, just a statement of fact. Its not Breezy is it?). Its understandable because they have so much more to draw off of when they deal with the same unit all the time. If he's gotta handle a tuner that he is not familiar with, that means more learning curve time.

Just gotta be careful about recomendations from them for this reason.

Meh, something you probably already know, but I thought had to be said.

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