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Subject: "Running on Crower 2s!!"

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740 turbo brick	Jul-22-09 11:35 PM
Member since Jun 09th 2008 831 posts,

#126745, "Running on Crower 2s!!"

My car is running with a ported and polished head and crower 2 cams. All I can say is I fucking love these things. The idle is disgusting, loping like a v8. Ill post up a video as soon as youtube uploads it.

Also, had a bit of a problem. Since there is a higher vacuum now, the EGR valve was staying open and was getting so hot the paint burned off it. Should I just do a EGR delete?

95 Eclipse GS: 10.5:1, Crower 2's and MSII
186 WHP - 150 WTQ
14.697 @ 93.85 MPH......Gone, but not forgotten
99 420A Avenger: Given to my sister
99 GS OZ: Sold
03 Evo 8: Family Car with balls

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Replies to this topic

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, 740 turbo brick, Jul-22-09 11:44 PM, #1

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, freelancefool, Jul-23-09 12:27 AM, #2

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, 740 turbo brick, Jul-23-09 10:33 AM, #3

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, Moderator

Moderator

xcasbonx, Jul-23-09 01:26 PM, #4

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, 740 turbo brick, Jul-23-09 01:32 PM, #5

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, RoninEclipse2G, Jul-23-09 01:35 PM, #6

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, barza21, Jul-23-09 05:22 PM, #7

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, eclipse982nrRST, Jul-23-09 05:57 PM, #8

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, 420agreenvilleSC, Jul-23-09 07:47 PM, #9

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, Moderator

Moderator

teklein, Jul-23-09 07:48 PM, #10

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, freelancefool, Jul-23-09 08:17 PM, #11

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, 420agreenvilleSC, Jul-23-09 08:59 PM, #12

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, Team

Team

DR1665, Jul-23-09 11:14 PM, #13

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, barza21, Jul-24-09 03:34 AM, #14

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, Moderator

Moderator

xcasbonx, Jul-24-09 06:49 AM, #15

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, Team

Team

DR1665, Jul-24-09 10:35 AM, #16

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, 740 turbo brick, Jul-24-09 02:34 PM, #17

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, dalesmitsu, Jul-24-09 04:03 PM, #18

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, 740 turbo brick, Jul-24-09 04:31 PM, #19

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, 740 turbo brick, Jul-24-09 04:32 PM, #20

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, 740 turbo brick, Jul-24-09 10:39 PM, #21

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, barza21, Jul-24-09 11:53 PM, #22

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, 740 turbo brick, Jul-25-09 01:08 AM, #23

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, 740 turbo brick, Jul-25-09 01:31 PM, #24

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, RoninEclipse2G, Jul-25-09 02:45 PM, #25

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, rs99eclipse, Jul-26-09 04:37 PM, #26

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, 740 turbo brick, Jul-26-09 10:17 PM, #27

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, Cyexmaster, Jul-27-09 06:24 PM, #28

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, 740 turbo brick, Oct-02-09 12:27 AM, #29

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, Moderator

Moderator

bullettdsm, Oct-02-09 03:39 AM, #30

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, Moderator

Moderator

Corbin, Oct-02-09 11:27 AM, #31

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, RoninEclipse2G, Oct-02-09 12:12 PM, #32

RE: Running on Crower 2s!!, Moderator

Moderator

bullettdsm, Oct-02-09 01:44 PM, #33

740 turbo brick	Jul-22-09 11:44 PM
Member since Jun 09th 2008 831 posts,

#126746, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 0

YouTube.com

95 Eclipse GS: 10.5:1, Crower 2's and MSII
186 WHP - 150 WTQ
14.697 @ 93.85 MPH......Gone, but not forgotten
99 420A Avenger: Given to my sister
99 GS OZ: Sold
03 Evo 8: Family Car with balls

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freelancefool	Jul-23-09 12:27 AM
Donating 2GNT member 765 posts,

#126747, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 1
Jul-23-09 12:32 AM by freelancefool

I see a stock ECU still in there. Are you running an MS as well?

Also, Why does your plate say EGF BOOB?

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740 turbo brick	Jul-23-09 10:33 AM
Member since Jun 09th 2008 831 posts,

#126749, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 2

Lol, its 8008, but I like that too. I always tell people my plate says "Eclipse Goes Fast - Redlines at 8008."

That is the stock ECU doing its own thing. I have a S-AFC waiting to be hooked up, and an AEM wideband to tune with.

95 Eclipse GS: 10.5:1, Crower 2's and MSII
186 WHP - 150 WTQ
14.697 @ 93.85 MPH......Gone, but not forgotten
99 420A Avenger: Given to my sister
99 GS OZ: Sold
03 Evo 8: Family Car with balls

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xcasbonx	Jul-23-09 01:26 PM
Donating 2GNT member 2874 posts,

#126750, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 0

Originally posted by 740 turbo brick
Since there is a higher vacuum now, the EGR valve was staying open and was getting so hot the paint burned off it. Should I just do a EGR delete?

Higher vacuum?

would be less with the Crower 2's.

Gotta love the C2's I got em in mine as well with a p&p and AFX ecu...its screams from about 4500rpm to redline on the highway.

Get rid of all of the EGR. Block it off.

I contributed to the Wiki.

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740 turbo brick	Jul-23-09 01:32 PM
Member since Jun 09th 2008 831 posts,

#126751, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 4

Really? I figured since they are drawing more air and the sound my intake was making that the vacuum would be higher. Either way that EGR valve was getting way too hot. Im assuming they are supposed to limit the intake of exhaust gas and this was staying completely open. If I just get the block off plates will I throw the CEL for no EGR?

95 Eclipse GS: 10.5:1, Crower 2's and MSII
186 WHP - 150 WTQ
14.697 @ 93.85 MPH......Gone, but not forgotten
99 420A Avenger: Given to my sister
99 GS OZ: Sold
03 Evo 8: Family Car with balls

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RoninEclipse2G	Jul-23-09 01:35 PM
Donating 2GNT member 2745 posts,

#126752, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 5

There's a good chance that you will. My 95 throws a code for no EGR flow. when I put it back together I'm going to modify the pipe to hold the valve and solenoid under the intake manifold and mount a filter to it so that it sees flow but doesn't pull any nasty stuff in.

Erik P.
Official 2GNT thread Hijacker
Some say that he's driven over more Covenant than he's shot, and that his grenades aren't where you'd expect them to be...
All we know is, He's not The Stig... But he is The Stig's Spartan cousin!

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barza21	Jul-23-09 05:22 PM
Member since Oct 09th 2006 313 posts,

#126753, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 6

Crane 16's for the win!!!! jk

Good job dude, welcome to the club.

I wish I had blown it, believe me, I do...

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eclipse982nrRST	Jul-23-09 05:57 PM
Member since Mar 16th 2004 6314 posts,

#126754, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 7

Nice, I am using a set of Crower 2's in the stroker build

-MIKE-

Stroked 2.2L

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420agreenvilleSC	Jul-23-09 07:47 PM
Donating 2GNT member 1527 posts,

#126755, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 8

I want like twice that lope sound. that sounds great, but i want more. lol. what makes more? crower 3s? crane 16s? oddly enough, I have yet to discover the world of aftermarket cams

___________________________________________

http://www.2gnt.com/quote_db.php?id=278

Outside of Corona: "That sucks, peace out..." (jamie walks away)... "Sweeet, what we doin?" -Zac
Tim's garage (prior to motor install): "Im gonna smoke real quick, that way if you fuck up I am already nicotined up" -Tim

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teklein	Jul-23-09 07:48 PM
Member since Nov 04th 2007 1699 posts,

#126756, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 9

Originally posted by 420agreenvilleSC
I want like twice that lope sound. that sounds great, but i want more. lol. what makes more? crower 3s? crane 16s? oddly enough, I have yet to discover the world of aftermarket cams

Too big and you will lose boost

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freelancefool	Jul-23-09 08:17 PM
Donating 2GNT member 765 posts,

#126757, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 10

I dunno Tim. I know that most people here say that too much overlap and the car loses a lot of power. Look at the other DSM guys. 280* cams. I think it is a tuning issue. I think that given the right amount of time, someone could find a nice grind and go make some good power.

Of course, I will probably get told I am a retard and don't know what the fuck I am talking about.

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420agreenvilleSC	Jul-23-09 08:59 PM
Donating 2GNT member 1527 posts,

#126758, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 11

Originally posted by freelancefool
I will probably get told I am a retard and don't know what the fuck I am talking about.

you're a retard and you dont know what the fuck you are talking about

___________________________________________

http://www.2gnt.com/quote_db.php?id=278

Outside of Corona: "That sucks, peace out..." (jamie walks away)... "Sweeet, what we doin?" -Zac
Tim's garage (prior to motor install): "Im gonna smoke real quick, that way if you fuck up I am already nicotined up" -Tim

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DR1665	Jul-23-09 11:14 PM
Donating 2GNT member 14692 posts,

#126759, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 5

Originally posted by 740 turbo brick
Really? I figured since they are drawing more air and the sound my intake was making that the vacuum would be higher.

It's overlap. The combination of lift and duration means that your exhaust valves aren't completely closed before the intake valves begin to open. As the piston drops in the cylinder, it draws in the next charge. While the exhaust valves are open, even slightly, there amount of suction created is split between both intake and exhaust, thereby causing the reduced vacuum in the intake manifold.

This is why it's been said that C3s or other very aggressive NA cams aren't the best idea for boosted applications. As you know, boost is a function of the compressor pressurizing the intake manifold and cylinders, right? If these more aggressive cams have even more overlap than you've got right now, it means that the turbo is trying to pressurize cylinders with what could be considered a leak. (Meaning it requires a greater volume of air - CFM - to produce the same amount of pressure - boost.) Since the gains associated with the C3s are due to BOTH lift AND duration (thus, overlap), dialing the overlap out to improve boost response can effectively reduce the potency of the cam profile.

There's more to it than that, but this should give you an idea of why there is reduced vacuum with those cams.

As an aside, the reduced vacuum is also the reason why the car might seem anemic below, say, 3000rpm. The low end is where you feel your torque. (Torque gets you moving - horsepower keeps you moving.) On an NA motor, the velocity of the intake charge contributes to torque down low. Since there's less air flowing, it needs to be accelerated by the design of the intake runners. As you can imagine, more vacuum in the intake manifold means a faster intake charge velocity. Since the overlap reduces vac down low, it also results in reduced charge velocity, which hampers low end torque.

There. I feel better. After you've read up some more on overlap, consider looking into the differences between street and race porting on your head. Don't forget to consider throttle body sizing as well. Finally, remember that ignition timing advance, as provided by the AFX/R ECU or MSnS plays into this equation.

As is the case with exhaust piping size, careful consideration of the airflow into the engine is critical on an all motor engine.

And (jesus, I'm running over on this one), I'd suggest you sell that SAFC and get yourself some MSnS goodness. Timing is going to make the most of those cams. With the AFX/R, a Fierro race head, oversized valves and C2s, Daisy hauled all kinds of ass. I was easily doing 100mph in 3rd getting onto the highway at 8000rpm. Once I sold the AFX/R ECU (Casbon, right?), she was limp below 3000rpm, starting to wake up by 4500rpm, and just making noise above 5000rpm. You're not going to be able to maximize your investment with an SAFC.

Drive without limits.

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barza21	Jul-24-09 03:34 AM
Member since Oct 09th 2006 313 posts,

#126762, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 13

Can you upload your mod list?

I have crane 16's and they sound nothing like that, but then again I am low comp and dont remember the specs on the Crowers.

I wish I had blown it, believe me, I do...

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xcasbonx	Jul-24-09 06:49 AM
Donating 2GNT member 2874 posts,

#126763, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 13

Originally posted by DR1665
Once I sold the AFX/R ECU (Casbon, right?)

Yes sir. Still running strong. Need to get off my ass and install that MSnS sometime.

I contributed to the Wiki.

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DR1665	Jul-24-09 10:35 AM
Donating 2GNT member 14692 posts,

#126766, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 15

Originally posted by xcasbonx

Originally posted by DR1665 Once I sold the AFX/R ECU (Casbon, right?)

Yes sir. Still running strong. Need to get off my ass and install that MSnS sometime.

Sweet!

I almost forgot, there's a couple really low quality videos of Daisy's idle on Google Video. Uploaded back in 2007.

Through Pacesetter 4-2-1, stock/exhaust to 3" Magnaflow with gay tip:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7932441446776731007

Through Pacesetter 40201, cherrybomb "test pipe":
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5108278455852549857

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740 turbo brick	Jul-24-09 02:34 PM
Member since Jun 09th 2008 831 posts,

#126770, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 16

I was actually waiting for you to see this thread. As far as I know, these are the very Cams that were in Daisy a ways back. It was a white talon right?

I took the car out for a run. I wasnt impressed at all, and then I took it to redline. Holy shit the car will wanted to pull after redline. It was awesome.

95 Eclipse GS: 10.5:1, Crower 2's and MSII
186 WHP - 150 WTQ
14.697 @ 93.85 MPH......Gone, but not forgotten
99 420A Avenger: Given to my sister
99 GS OZ: Sold
03 Evo 8: Family Car with balls

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dalesmitsu	Jul-24-09 04:03 PM
Member since May 13th 2006 986 posts,

#126771, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 17

are you saying normal driving around town these c2 are shitty but on the track/launching is great. I thought going redline would damage the motor.

Clean talon Driggs

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740 turbo brick	Jul-24-09 04:31 PM
Member since Jun 09th 2008 831 posts,

#126772, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 18

The redline is set there so you dont float the valves into the pistons. Cams with higher lift plus stiffer valve springs let you take it slightly beyond redline. You still have the bottom end to worry about though.

95 Eclipse GS: 10.5:1, Crower 2's and MSII
186 WHP - 150 WTQ
14.697 @ 93.85 MPH......Gone, but not forgotten
99 420A Avenger: Given to my sister
99 GS OZ: Sold
03 Evo 8: Family Car with balls

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740 turbo brick	Jul-24-09 04:32 PM
Member since Jun 09th 2008 831 posts,

#126773, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 19

Also, normal driving is not really affected, or at least to me it isnt. Idle and coming to a stop you will notice the car wants to stall, but cruising down the freeway at 70 it sounds about stock. Still 35mpg too.

95 Eclipse GS: 10.5:1, Crower 2's and MSII
186 WHP - 150 WTQ
14.697 @ 93.85 MPH......Gone, but not forgotten
99 420A Avenger: Given to my sister
99 GS OZ: Sold
03 Evo 8: Family Car with balls

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740 turbo brick	Jul-24-09 10:39 PM
Member since Jun 09th 2008 831 posts,

#126777, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 20

How much could I benefit from Adjustable Cam gears at this point?

95 Eclipse GS: 10.5:1, Crower 2's and MSII
186 WHP - 150 WTQ
14.697 @ 93.85 MPH......Gone, but not forgotten
99 420A Avenger: Given to my sister
99 GS OZ: Sold
03 Evo 8: Family Car with balls

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barza21	Jul-24-09 11:53 PM
Member since Oct 09th 2006 313 posts,

#126778, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 21

Mod list?

I wish I had blown it, believe me, I do...

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740 turbo brick	Jul-25-09 01:08 AM
Member since Jun 09th 2008 831 posts,

#126780, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 22

CAI,
60mm TB,
OBX header,
2.5" N1 Catback,
MSD Coil Pack,
30% UDP,
Crower Stage 2 Cams,
Crower Springs,
Race Ported and Polished Head,
3 Angle Valve job,
S-AFC,
AEM Uego,
F1 Racing Clutch

I hope Im not forgetting anything lol

95 Eclipse GS: 10.5:1, Crower 2's and MSII
186 WHP - 150 WTQ
14.697 @ 93.85 MPH......Gone, but not forgotten
99 420A Avenger: Given to my sister
99 GS OZ: Sold
03 Evo 8: Family Car with balls

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740 turbo brick	Jul-25-09 01:31 PM
Member since Jun 09th 2008 831 posts,

#126784, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 23

Well I installed my Wideband gauge in my rear o2 sensor location. So far my idle afr is around 15, leaner when its cold.

Full throttle almost the whole RPM range its 11.5 or richer. So Im thinking I can gain just from leaning it out a few points.

95 Eclipse GS: 10.5:1, Crower 2's and MSII
186 WHP - 150 WTQ
14.697 @ 93.85 MPH......Gone, but not forgotten
99 420A Avenger: Given to my sister
99 GS OZ: Sold
03 Evo 8: Family Car with balls

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RoninEclipse2G	Jul-25-09 02:45 PM
Donating 2GNT member 2745 posts,

#126786, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 24

if you were turbo that would be a nice AFR

Erik P.
Official 2GNT thread Hijacker
Some say that he's driven over more Covenant than he's shot, and that his grenades aren't where you'd expect them to be...
All we know is, He's not The Stig... But he is The Stig's Spartan cousin!

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rs99eclipse	Jul-26-09 04:37 PM
Member since Mar 20th 2009 25 posts,

#126803, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 25

Hey I was really considering getting some c2's but I was just affraid I was gonna lose to much low-end, on a car that already has virtually no low-end to begin with. After you installed them did you lose alot of low-end, and about at what rpm range did this move the powerband to.

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740 turbo brick	Jul-26-09 10:17 PM
Member since Jun 09th 2008 831 posts,

#126813, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 26

Originally posted by rs99eclipse
Hey I was really considering getting some c2's but I was just affraid I was gonna lose to much low-end, on a car that already has virtually no low-end to begin with. After you installed them did you lose alot of low-end, and about at what rpm range did this move the powerband to.

The low end, for the most part, is still there. It is a bit laggier way down, like below 2, but every day driving was hardly affected for me. The power starts to show itself around 3, but it wakes the fuck up after 4500. I pulled on a stock Turbo DSM today in 3rd gear, 5.5k. It was awesome.

95 Eclipse GS: 10.5:1, Crower 2's and MSII
186 WHP - 150 WTQ
14.697 @ 93.85 MPH......Gone, but not forgotten
99 420A Avenger: Given to my sister
99 GS OZ: Sold
03 Evo 8: Family Car with balls

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Cyexmaster	Jul-27-09 06:24 PM
Member since Nov 27th 2007 324 posts,

#126843, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 27

Anyone running the crower's 2 turbo grind? I'd like to know how the affect performance. Looking to get cams and I want to get some feedback before I spend around $500 on something that I haven't seen any feedback from.

Status- Need to do break-in...

Try not to challenge me, I'd rather tie up than lose. Either way you NEVER WIN.... - Me..

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740 turbo brick	Oct-02-09 12:27 AM
Member since Jun 09th 2008 831 posts,

#128057, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 28

Well it might make a few of you happy to know I have decided to try my hand at MSnS. The car is eating up its 4th ECU, so around the 20th of this month Im putting it into a garage and doing all kinds of work. Ill probably buy the 420A kit from Symtech when I get my taxes and get it all installed, start tuning her out. Im shooting for 14.9 or better next summer. I will probably leave the stock ECU in to control fans and such, and have MS take care of the go-go.

95 Eclipse GS: 10.5:1, Crower 2's and MSII
186 WHP - 150 WTQ
14.697 @ 93.85 MPH......Gone, but not forgotten
99 420A Avenger: Given to my sister
99 GS OZ: Sold
03 Evo 8: Family Car with balls

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bullettdsm	Oct-02-09 03:39 AM
Donating 2GNT member 2676 posts,

#128058, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 29

Originally posted by 740 turbo brick
Im shooting for 14.9 or better next summer.

Nice. You go girl, lol.

I would love to see you get down there. I'm thinking with your set-up and the proper tune with some seat time, you'll be there.

Captain Caveman

96 RS Turbo 11.414 @ 119.62 MSNS, Crower 2 NA cams, BW366, 10.5 comp, UDP, 60mm TB, W/A intercooler, 3.55 tranny 567.9whp 430tq
97 RS NA 13.188 @ 103.87 MSnS powered 12.5 comp, Crower 3's and 219.4whp with 175tq
98 RS DD 12.5 comp on stock ECU, LTH, Crower 2's, Koni, GC, Hypercoil, DG hats
99 OZ 5sp Stocker 15.856 @ 85.97
99 GS stocker auto 17.7@77mph!

wiki home page:http://www.2gnt.com/index.php?d=bullettdsm

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Corbin	Oct-02-09 11:27 AM
Donating 2GNT member 2552 posts,

#128060, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 29

Make sure you come up with a circuit to power the crank sensor and other critical sensors. That will not be standard on most MSnS kits. If you are having trouble with stock ECUs, you cannot trust it to power the sensors. After I got left on the highway because of a failed ECU, I added a voltage regulator to the MSnS to give me an independent 9V for my crank sensor and used the standard MSnS 5V output for other sensors. Currently, all my stock ECU does is keep the CEL lit.

Corbin
'95 ESI-T

Now with more power and fewer leaks

Humble servant of the Wiki

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RoninEclipse2G	Oct-02-09 12:12 PM
Donating 2GNT member 2745 posts,

#128061, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 31

Originally posted by Corbin
Currently, all my stock ECU does is keep the CEL lit.

I LOL'd a bit at that.

Erik P.
Official 2GNT thread Hijacker
Some say that he's driven over more Covenant than he's shot, and that his grenades aren't where you'd expect them to be...
All we know is, He's not The Stig... But he is The Stig's Spartan cousin!

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bullettdsm	Oct-02-09 01:44 PM
Donating 2GNT member 2676 posts,

#128063, "RE: Running on Crower 2s!!"
In response to Reply # 32

Originally posted by RoninEclipse2G

Originally posted by Corbin Currently, all my stock ECU does is keep the CEL lit.

I LOL'd a bit at that.

As did I

Captain Caveman

96 RS Turbo 11.414 @ 119.62 MSNS, Crower 2 NA cams, BW366, 10.5 comp, UDP, 60mm TB, W/A intercooler, 3.55 tranny 567.9whp 430tq
97 RS NA 13.188 @ 103.87 MSnS powered 12.5 comp, Crower 3's and 219.4whp with 175tq
98 RS DD 12.5 comp on stock ECU, LTH, Crower 2's, Koni, GC, Hypercoil, DG hats
99 OZ 5sp Stocker 15.856 @ 85.97
99 GS stocker auto 17.7@77mph!

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