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ezFeb-02-11 05:13 PM
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#108473, "Water injection questions"


          

I haven't asked a technical question regarding the 420a in years, figure it's time to stoke the coals a bit. If this project becomes successful, expect a wiki with parts list all for <$100.

I'm designing a water injection system based off of tidbits I gathered from autospeed.com. The golden piece of information off of that site was a suggested pump that works like an aquamist pump at a fraction of the price (~$50-60). I'm going to use the stock windshield wiper tank, and set my emanage to turn on a relay for the pump when boost begins. The nozzle will be placed after the intercooler, some distance away from the TB.

Goal is to run water only for detonation control. No methanol. I won't need any alcohol in the mix as the car will be in cali and freezing temps are not a worry. I want to maximize boost available on a s16g with 91 octane, intercooled, 8.8 pistons, stock ignition. Without water injection, some have reported seeing pinging at 15 psi on this setup. I want to get a few more psi if possible.

I'm looking at the following nozzles off mcmaster: 3178K87, or perhaps 4759T15. The fogging nozzle appears to atomize the water the most, based on the description. See http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/117/2072/=aunli4 . Any suggestions here?

If you run water injection can you chime in on your experiences with details of your setup? Like what is the volume of your water expressed as a %age of your fuel volume? Maybe an old schooler versed in water injection will see this thread (turby, are you reading this)?

Once you've implemented water injection, what do you lean your AFRs out to now, since the water is putting a clamp on combustion temps instead of the extra fuel?

Also, can anyone recommend a small/light weight 12V to 220V inverter that will survive underhood temps?

2gnt: '99 RS-T, killed by a toyota, pending rebuild...
Daily: Volt
Daily #2: '99 EVG ebike- STOLEN by PEDRO

  

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AdministratorCODE4Feb-02-11 06:01 PM
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#108474, "RE: Water injection questions"
In response to Reply # 0
Feb-02-11 06:09 PM by CODE4



          

With said pump, is there a controller as well? Is there a voltage regulator to feed the pump or will the output vary with system voltages? Does the system require a pressure regulator of any kind? What calculations are you using/will you use to establish flow volume & pressure?

I am interested in H2O injection as well in FL for the same reasons. A DIY kit is well worth the R&D.

From the MS Manual:

http://msextra.com/doc/ms1extra/MS_Extra_Hardware_Manual.htm#waterinj

When the manifold boost level (detected by the MAP sensor) and engine RPM are above the set values in Megatune and the Manifold Air Temperature is above the set value, the Pump is turned on via X2 for a V2.2 pcb or JS0 for a V3 pcb. X3 (JS1 for a V3 pcb) is pulsed at the same rate as injector CH #2 (this can be used to drive a fast acting solenoid). The theory being that if a water nozzle is selected to give a 15% flow rate of the total of the injectors flow rate then it follows that it should naturally give the right amount of water. So if your total injector flow is 2000cc/min (all of your injector flow rates added together) then a 300cc/min nozzle would give you 15% water to fuel ratio, which is a good starting point. i.e. 15% of 2000cc of fuel = 300cc of water.
The Manifold Air Temp is ignored once the water has turned on as this should reduce vertually straight away with the water evaperating in the air. The water system doesn't turn off again untill boost pressure or RPM has dropped below the set levels.

---

2012 2500HD LML


  

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ezFeb-02-11 06:53 PM
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#108475, "RE: Water injection questions"
In response to Reply # 1


          

Originally posted by CODE4
With said pump, is there a controller as well?

No need for one. Turn it on with boost, turn it off when off boost. While there is a school of thought that thinks increasing water volume with fuel volume is optimum (via PWM like the MS, a FPR type of setup, or other type of controller), I suscribe to the K.I.S.S. route. These guys seem to agree: http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html To put it in their words "You have to eliminate the variables, not increase them."

You can use a boost switch or MS to do the on/off switching. I will use emanage.

Is there a voltage regulator to feed the pump or will the output vary with system voltages?

The pump requires 220V AC. There is another pump available that requires 110V AC, however it runs hotter. Therefore you need a 12V to 220V inverter. Again, do not vary voltage, for the reasons rbracing mentions.

Does the system require a pressure regulator of any kind?

I prefer to avoid this route.

What calculations are you using/will you use to establish flow volume & pressure?

Regarding pressure:
To keep things simple, I am looking at pumps that are capable of 15bar, so the 1 to 1.5 atm of boost pressure will not affect flow too much.



Regarding volume:
It appears that in spite of all the sophisticated electronics and controllers that water injection kit companies utilize, it really ends up coming down to the little nozzle you stick at the end of a hose. So, I believe it's easiest to simply get a high pressure pump capable of the volumes you need, and then pick a nozzle that will give you 10-15% volume of fuel you are injecting. The highest flow that professionals use appears to be approximately 25% of fuel requirements.

Thinking out loud here...I will aim for ~10% (water volume/fuel volume) I need at 20psi at redline. Which means that below this peak fuel requirement, I will be putting much more water than needed at lower RPMS. That's ok, no harm will occur. If the engine bogs, I will reduce my nozzle size.

The question is, how much do fuel do I need at 20psi in cc/min? Am I aiming for 12.5 AFRs with water injection? Suppose I need 1200 cc/min of fuel at this level of boost, then I need 120 - 180 cc/min of water.

I just don't know where to start with nozzle sizing, because they give you a GPM number on each nozzle, but don't tell you what the GPMs are at each pressure. I would almost have to experiment here with each nozzle on my pump.

I am interested in H2O injection as well in FL for the same reasons. A DIY kit is well worth the R&D.

Then let's make progress on this in 2011!

2gnt: '99 RS-T, killed by a toyota, pending rebuild...
Daily: Volt
Daily #2: '99 EVG ebike- STOLEN by PEDRO

  

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AdministratorCODE4Feb-02-11 07:57 PM
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#108476, "RE: Water injection questions"
In response to Reply # 2




          

Check this thread: http://www.alcohol-injection.com/forum/nozzle-size-calculator/how-convert-gph-ccs-nozzle-size-427.html

63 cc/min = 1 gph (we will need to back this up somewhere)

1 gph = 0.01666 gpm (if needed for certain products using that measurement)

Using the nozzle 4759T15 form McMaster, we see that the volume output changes significantly with input pressure. I have not looked too closely at the pump specs, but I am not sure how we would go about calculating the line pressure with no regulator. What kind of pressure would we see in the line to the nozzle upon power-up?

Using the same pump, at 100 psi (for example) the nozzle flows 26.4 GPH, which by using the above formula equals 1663 cc/min flow through the nozzle. That is quite a bit of water being injected. @40 psi the nozzle will flow 1058 cc/min. Clearly we need to step down the orifice based on our fuel requirements.

---

2012 2500HD LML


  

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ezFeb-02-11 09:35 PM
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#108477, "RE: Water injection questions"
In response to Reply # 3


          

Good info. I've looked a little farther into this too.

I combined the data available at spray.com (page 17 of their unijet fine atomizing nozzle data sheet) with actual measured ml/min experimental data gathered by autospeed for various nozzles. I used this to estimate pressures that are seen in the line for nozzles ranging from 0.6 to 4.


For a size 0.6 unijet, it flows 65 ml/min on this pump. I estimate that the line pressure is therefore around 100psi.

For a size 3 unijet, it flows 230 ml/min on the pump, so I estimate the line pressure drops to around 60 psi.

For a size 4 unijet, it flows 260 ml/min, so the pressure drops even further to around 50 psi.

2gnt: '99 RS-T, killed by a toyota, pending rebuild...
Daily: Volt
Daily #2: '99 EVG ebike- STOLEN by PEDRO

  

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SilvrEclipsFeb-03-11 09:05 AM
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#108478, "RE: Water injection questions"
In response to Reply # 4


          

Ive run meth injection for over a year now. Built a kit from devils own. I run mine threw MS and activate it at about 13psi. You should think about running a small amount of meth in your mixture to help control knock better. The water helps cool the intake charge while the meth increases octane to help with knock. Obviously cooler intake temps will also help with knock but it will be minimal gain. I just run blue -20 washer fluid. Its ab $2 a gallon and contains 35-40% meth. You should be able to max that turbo out on the stock ignition no problem. I use to run a 20g at 20psi with meth on the stock ignition

98 Eclipse GS Turbo
Built motor - MS2 - Holset hy35 - Zoom Stg 4 Clutch - 57.5mm TB - ARP Headstuds - Turbonetics wastegate - 3" Turbo back - FMIC - Greddy RZ BOV - Walbro 255 - 650cc Injectors - Fidanza Flywheel - Cobra calipers w/ 13" Rotors - Oil Cooler - DevilsOwn meth injection

1981 Chevy Scottsdale
1987 Nissan 300zx - Chump Car
2001 BMW 325i

  

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420agreenvilleSCFeb-03-11 03:52 PM
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#108479, "RE: Water injection questions"
In response to Reply # 5




          

bookmarked

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http://www.2gnt.com/quote_db.php?id=278

Outside of Corona: "That sucks, peace out..." (jamie walks away)... "Sweeet, what we doin?" -Zac
Tim's garage (prior to motor install): "Im gonna smoke real quick, that way if you fuck up I am already nicotined up" -Tim

  

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ezFeb-03-11 04:59 PM
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#108480, "RE: Water injection questions"
In response to Reply # 5


          

Originally posted by SilvrEclips
I use to run a 20g at 20psi with meth on the stock ignition


Hey Jason, by any chance to you remember what your flow rate was in cc/min, or what nozzle size/pump pressure combo you were running?

2gnt: '99 RS-T, killed by a toyota, pending rebuild...
Daily: Volt
Daily #2: '99 EVG ebike- STOLEN by PEDRO

  

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SilvrEclipsFeb-04-11 08:12 AM
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#108481, "RE: Water injection questions"
In response to Reply # 7
Feb-04-11 08:13 AM by SilvrEclips

          

Im running a M12 nozzel and the devilsown silver pump, I think its around 115psi IIRC. I cant remember the flow rate of the system off the top of my head.

98 Eclipse GS Turbo
Built motor - MS2 - Holset hy35 - Zoom Stg 4 Clutch - 57.5mm TB - ARP Headstuds - Turbonetics wastegate - 3" Turbo back - FMIC - Greddy RZ BOV - Walbro 255 - 650cc Injectors - Fidanza Flywheel - Cobra calipers w/ 13" Rotors - Oil Cooler - DevilsOwn meth injection

1981 Chevy Scottsdale
1987 Nissan 300zx - Chump Car
2001 BMW 325i

  

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ezFeb-04-11 10:33 AM
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#108482, "RE: Water injection questions"
In response to Reply # 8


          

Damn, that's the 756 cc/min nozzle.

2gnt: '99 RS-T, killed by a toyota, pending rebuild...
Daily: Volt
Daily #2: '99 EVG ebike- STOLEN by PEDRO

  

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SilvrEclipsFeb-04-11 12:30 PM
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#108483, "RE: Water injection questions"
In response to Reply # 9
Feb-04-11 12:31 PM by SilvrEclips

          

I just went and looked Im running the M10 nozzle. Its been a while since I have messed around with this. The nozzle is rated at 630ml/min. I have my 650s about maxed out so Im really only getting 1/4 the nozzle per cylinder.

ml/min = cc/min
.25 * 630 = 158cc per cylinder of the water/meth mixture. Since my mixture is approx. 40% meth I am really only getting 63cc of methanol and 95cc of water. If you plan on running straight water then you should probably run a nozzle less than 400ml/min.

But like I said I would run the larger nozzle and add some meth into the mix. It will let you run more timing and also let you pull some more fuel out of your injectors to lower the duty cycle. However, your setup will now rely on the meth for fuel and if you ever run out your motor will be toast if you boost it. With just water you wouldn't have this problem.

98 Eclipse GS Turbo
Built motor - MS2 - Holset hy35 - Zoom Stg 4 Clutch - 57.5mm TB - ARP Headstuds - Turbonetics wastegate - 3" Turbo back - FMIC - Greddy RZ BOV - Walbro 255 - 650cc Injectors - Fidanza Flywheel - Cobra calipers w/ 13" Rotors - Oil Cooler - DevilsOwn meth injection

1981 Chevy Scottsdale
1987 Nissan 300zx - Chump Car
2001 BMW 325i

  

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