Hey guys,

As I'm sure you all know, cast 420A log-style turbo manifolds have issues, as do most welded manifolds (log or tubular). I know a good, reasonably priced alternative has been dangled in our faces before, but I think I've finally got a solution.

The plan is a better flowing and better fitting cast exhaust manifold. The design will be somewhat similar to the 2G 4G63 turbo manifold, but with the 420A Eclipse specifically in mind. The runners will smoothly transition into the collector, and the sidewalls will be extra thick and warrantied against cracking.

I just wanted to see how much interest is out there for such a manifold. It think it would be a good alternative to the cast log styles out there right now. Furthermore, the price will not be unreasonable.

We'll probably proceed with this project whether there's immediate interest or not, but it would be nice to know these things will sell right away.



-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

I'd be interested. Keep us posted.

Is this going to be a SymTech or CI product? :wary

I would be interested... definitly keep us posted!

Interested as well. I'm sure many others are too.

this sounds very interesting...

Originally posted by DR1665
I'd be interested. Keep us posted. Is this going to be a SymTech or CI product? :wary

It's a joint-effort between SymTech and one of my vendors; not CI though. I'm doing all the R&D as of now, they're helping with production. I may consider selling the design to others, so long as they can assure my production standards will be met.


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

I'm interested. Very much so.

Ok, I've been in touch with all my suppliers about getting certain parts for the prototype, and it looks like this it totally doable.

I'll pick up a GT35R to fit it all, and that'll pretty much be the largest size turbo the manifold will support.

The thing will be flanged for a T3, and it'll have a 38mm wastegate flange. It will clear the fans, starter, and all AC/PS hoses no problem.


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

Interesting

Originally posted by VelocitaPaola
It will clear the fans, starter, and all AC/PS hoses no problem.

Hope it clears my hood, too.

Is it too early to speak to price points? You're a crafty bastard, Paul. I know you've given it some thought, but beyond "As affordable as possible" would be nice to know. Are we talking sub-$300 range for these things?

Originally posted by DR1665
Is it too early to speak to price points? You're a crafty bastard, Paul. I know you've given it some thought, but beyond "As affordable as possible" would be nice to know. Are we talking sub-$300 range for these things?

I know what it'll cost me, but I'm not sure what the final price will come out to be, as I have to discuss it with my vendor.

I can say it'll be under $400 initially. If enough are bought (more than twenty), then the price should drop significantly.

Ideally, I'd like the initial price to be under $350 to be competitive with other designs.


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

I love u Paul :thumbsup

I'll buy 19 of them....j/k but count me in for 1

Originally posted by DarkOne

Originally posted by VelocitaPaola It will clear the fans, starter, and all AC/PS hoses no problem.

Hope it clears my hood, too.

I'm doing what I can to position the turbo at an aggressive downward angle. The turbo should clear the hood, it's the runners I'll have to pay attention to. Any suggestions for the design? Should I just add a 1" spacer on top of it all to check for clearance?


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

if it happens yo..

Originally posted by VelocitaPaola
Should I just add a 1" spacer on top of it all to check for clearance?

It'd be a big help to those few of us running a 2.4L.

Just a preliminary sketch:





Do you think that would clear your hood Dino? I could angle the runners down a little more, and push the turbo outward.

This will all need changing once I have a 420A to test the fit, but it should give you an idea of what the final product will look like.

By the way, the circle represents where the downpipe would be give a 3" pipe with a 3" radius. I think the turbo is pretty far to the right, but the downpipe may hit the AC compressor. If I have to, I think the whole thing could be angled so the downpipe is closer to the block and oil dipstick.


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

That #1 runner looks long

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST
That #1 runner looks long

+1 But it still looks nice! Keep us updated.

Just a few things to keep in mind...

1. This was just a preliminary sketch; not the final product.
2. The draft obviously isn't rendered in 3D, so it's difficult to interpret the actual length of each runner.
3. Runner #1 will likely end up being slightly longer than the others; that's the price we pay for an offset design like this. However, the difference in length will not be as drastic as the sketch is suggesting.


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

Originally posted by VelocitaPaola
Do you think that would clear your hood Dino?

With the runners coming out and down with no upward sweep, yeah, I think it would. Designs like Mike's with an upward sweep to the runners cause problems, but something reminiscent of stock, like yours, would work fine.

This is getting more and more so exciting! So are you planning on a universal design, or will these extra modifications be 2.4l friendly specific?

Hmmm ... that's pretty nice there Paul.

Thanks for the comments guys.

One of the biggest costs associated with casting is the tooling costs; so to keep the price down, I'm aiming for a one-size-fits-all approach. The manifold will fit 2.0L and 2.4L applications. It will only be T3 flanged unless there is an overwhelming amount of interest for an MHI flange.

I'll keep everyone updated as things move along.


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

T3 flange is the way to go...anyone going with this manifold should just get with the times, and go with the most recent technology in the gt series :thumbsup

Originally posted by XMasta19
T3 flange is the way to go...anyone going with this manifold should just get with the times, and go with the most recent technology in the gt series :thumbsup

:thumbsup

Whack Idea Time!

What about coming up with an equal lenth job and finding a way to maybe flip the PS pump over to provide a bit more clearance for a center-located turbo? I realize the AC compressor might be more of a problem than the PS pump, but it's just a thought...

Originally posted by DR1665
Whack Idea Time! What about coming up with an equal lenth job and finding a way to maybe flip the PS pump over to provide a bit more clearance for a center-located turbo? I realize the AC compressor might be more of a problem than the PS pump, but it's just a thought...

Don't make this more complicated than it already is.

Originally posted by DarkOne
Don't make this more complicated than it already is.

:7

Dude. He should totally be designing a RWD conversion. :order

Just messing with you, Paul. Keep up the good work.

Looks pretty good so far Paul, can't wait to see a finished product on an engine!

Originally posted by DR1665
Whack Idea Time! What about coming up with an equal lenth job and finding a way to maybe flip the PS pump over to provide a bit more clearance for a center-located turbo? I realize the AC compressor might be more of a problem than the PS pump, but it's just a thought...

;(

You're killing me...

First things first: I need a 420A, flanges, and a GT35 in front of me before I can make any judgments regarding fit. We'll see what happens at that point and go from there.

I want this to be as user friendly and bolt-on in nature as possible.

Take a look at this manifold for an idea of how it may end up looking:


That thing looks almost perfect if the main flange were for a 420A, and the wastegate flange were positioned differently.


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

Hey Paul,

How about a 420a flange that I have sitting in the garage and a GT30R I have laying around? Would that help you get started. They've only been sitting there for YEARS! PM me.

I understand that the mani pictured is not the exact model, but with the wastegate flange facing like it is, is that going to make contact with the fans?

I like it none the less. I am interested in one bigtime. I want to ditch my log mani in the worst way.

Do you have an expected date for production/sale?

Thanks
Tom

The wastegate flange won't be like that at all. It'll most likely be positioned on the #1 runner somewhere.

Given the long lead time, they'll probably be ready mid-July or so.


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

I'm guessing you are thinking along these lines Paul ...

http://store.forcedperformance.net/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=FP&Product_Code=FPRaceMani&Category_Code=DSM-Exhaust

It won't be the greatest manifold in the world but it isn't designed to be that either. A low cost, tubular, high perf manifold for the masses. May not be entirely equal length but fairly close with good flow characteristics.

I like.

Kind of...

The main differences are that it will definitely have an external wastegate flange, and while the manifold you posted looks pretty, this one will be a little beefier. I don't want cracking to be an issue at all.

Take a look at page three of this thread; it'll look something more like that. In fact, once I saw that manifold, I was shocked at how compatible it appeared. Besides the flange, and the wastegate position, it might be a good fit.


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

Just a little preview...

-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

Another... Notice the #1 runner is slightly shorter:

-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

I'm guessing it's not really possible to have the wastegate flange a little more angled downward on the runner as it could hit the radiator hose or something? I was just thinking it would maybe be easier to route a dump tube or pipe back into the exhaust that way.

Originally posted by VelocitaPaola
Just a little preview... -http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

That wastegate location will hit the waterneck. Put it on the other side, #4 runner.

WOW impressive. First thing that came to mind on the 3d rendering was that its comes out too long, if all the proportions on it are close to correct, that 3d model looks like it would run into the radiator, or periferals in the front of it (although i know you've actually worked on this, sorry to undermine you). That looks really REALLY amazing. I would really need to read on manifolds to give any contructive feed back to this thread (Ex. how the lenght 'till the turbo affects performance and such). Once again awesome work sir.

On a slightly different note, may I ask what kind of software are you using? is it just a CAD package, or are you using the CAD part of a CAD/CAM software? Just doing this in school myself, so to see the applications of what I am learning would be really cool.

Originally posted by edxmon
On a slightly different note, may I ask what kind of software are you using?

AutoCAD


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

Originally posted by VelocitaPaola

Originally posted by edxmon On a slightly different note, may I ask what kind of software are you using?

AutoCAD -http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

Cool, havent really had a long exposure to auto CAD, I work with MasterCAM.

Originally posted by DarkOne

Originally posted by VelocitaPaola Just a little preview... -http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

That wastegate location will hit the waterneck. Put it on the other side, #4 runner.

Yea that location deffinately will not work for a wastegate, but then if you put it on the #4 runner, you guys will be running a pretty long dump tube. Put it right smack in the middle of the collector.

I don't think the wastegate location is optimal either, closer to the collector perhaps?

I just slapped on the wastegate flange at the last minute. I can change its position easily. However, I don't think putting it on the #1 runner will be any better, because the dump tube would have to take a pretty convoluted route to avoid hitting the intake and the starter. Having it on the collector is an option, but space is tight around there.

As for whoever said it looks like the manifold will hit the radiatior... the runners on this only extend about 5" out from the head. The whole thing probably looks much bigger than it is.


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

another option since space is tight, run another tube off the collector and have that go to the wastegate.

I could try this configuration, but I don't think the wastegate will clear the fans. If I rotate it upward, then I don't think it'll clear the hood.

Meh... we'll see. I'm not making any commitments to any certain configuration until I have the car and turbo in front of me to make more empirical fit measurements.



-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

Notice the thicker, longer collector:



-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

I agree with turby, maybe if you had the wastegate flange connected to a pipe and the pipe connected to the manifold it would work a lot better. Also the #4 runner seems like a good possibility, could maybe have the intake side of the turbo coming out of the left side instead of the right. Could maybe work ok if you got rid of the power steering and a/c. Anywho, looks good Paul, keep us updated :thumbsup

Anything could work if I took out the AC and PS, but that's not my goal. I want this to be a simple solution. Think "next generation" Hahn manifold: something quick and easy to bolt on, with as little modification as possible.

You guys are forgetting also, that this is a cast piece. Having stray tubes sprouting from the collector isn't really an option considering the casting process. The flange will likely be cast in place, but all the holes and will need to be machined afterward.

EDIT: Thanks Thura. I couldn't quite put that into words. :)


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

Originally posted by totaleclipse_05
I agree with turby, maybe if you had the wastegate flange connected to a pipe and the pipe connected to the manifold it would work a lot better. Also the #4 runner seems like a good possibility, could maybe have the intake side of the turbo coming out of the left side instead of the right. Could maybe work ok if you got rid of the power steering and a/c. Anywho, looks good Paul, keep us updated :thumbsup

Point is not to ditch the AC and powersteering. An alternative to all the log style manifolds currently out on the market. Give Paul a chance to get started before throwing all these ideas out. You don't know how they'll work any better than he does with out a car to mock it up on. Right now it's all just guess work. All the WG clearances are going to be an issue considering we all wouldn't be using the same gate and each has different dimensions (not of the flanges but of the actual unit).

Originally posted by Avenger
Point is not to ditch the AC and powersteering. An alternative to all the log style manifolds currently out on the market. Give Paul a chance to get started before throwing all these ideas out. You don't know how they'll work any better than he does with out a car to mock it up on. Right now it's all just guess work. All the WG clearances are going to be an issue considering we all wouldn't be using the same gate and each has different dimensions (not of the flanges but of the actual unit).

I know he is looking for bolt-on, but it's going to be tough to find a spot on the #1 runner for a wastegate flange to fit a wastegate on without hitting anything. I was simply throwing out an idea of mounting the turbo in the opposite direction to better route the wastegate's dump tube if it were on the #4 runner as was mentioned. You could still mount the turbo in the conventional way with the dump tube on the #4 runner, but, as Mike mentioned, the piping for something like that will be a little tougher.

Really the only thing to do, besides get a bunch more mesurements of the engine bay, would be to make up some mock ones with the flange mounted in different spots on the #1 runner if he wants to keep it there and test fit some wastegates on the manifold on the car.

Originally posted by totaleclipse_05
Really the only thing to do, besides get a bunch more mesurements of the engine bay, would be to make up some mock ones with the flange mounted in different spots on the #1 runner if he wants to keep it there and test fit some wastegates on the manifold on the car.

That's exactly what I'm doing. I was only making a few designs as a rough guide.


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

Originally posted by VelocitaPaola

Originally posted by totaleclipse_05
Really the only thing to do, besides get a bunch more mesurements of the engine bay, would be to make up some mock ones with the flange mounted in different spots on the #1 runner if he wants to keep it there and test fit some wastegates on the manifold on the car.

That's exactly what I'm doing. I was only making a few designs as a rough guide.

Alright sounds good, I'll keep quiet until then :thumbsup

Can you put a location for a egt probe in there too and just have a block off option for it? I'm sure just about everyone who's turbo has an egt gauge. Maybe hae it pre-drilled with a thread in bung in case someone doesn't have one. then we don't have to drill into our nice new manifold.

Originally posted by xceler8
Can you put a location for a egt probe in there too and just have a block off option for it? I'm sure just about everyone who's turbo has an egt gauge. Maybe hae it pre-drilled with a thread in bung in case someone doesn't have one. then we don't have to drill into our nice new manifold.

+1 Good suggestion

whenever i'm building a prototype for a new car, it looks something like this. new school legos.

Originally posted by turbo8u
whenever i'm building a prototype for a new car, it looks something like this. new school legos.

those are fuggin saweeeeeeeet

I still do it the old school way with blue foam.


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

Originally posted by VelocitaPaola
I still do it the old school way with blue foam. -

what do you mean blue foam?

It's a high-density foam for making models... and it happens to be blue. :)

I use it for cast and molded pieces that require a free-form shape. It's pretty easy to sculpt and it can be removed from a secondary mold by melting it with acetone.


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

Originally posted by VelocitaPaola
It's a high-density foam for making models... and it happens to be blue. :) I use it for cast and molded pieces that require a free-form shape. It's pretty easy to sculpt and it can be removed from a secondary mold by melting it with acetone. -http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

Originally posted by etx

Exactly!


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

Would have been very interested if these had been available within the last 3-12 months.

Just bought a new cast manifold and had all new piping made for the new setup though :/

In regards to the Wastegate. I know it's not the prettiest solution, but if you can cast a flange anyways, why not just cast a flange and bolt a stainless pipe to it that runs to a remote wastegate? Naturally you'd want the shrotest distance possible, but you could at least throw an elbow in there or something to make some room.

wow, great work Paul! I too would like to get my hands on one of these.

Edit - any updates? Seems I'm the first to post here in two weeks.

I'll most likely be picking one of these up when it finally hits production.

Originally posted by Keith2172
In regards to the Wastegate. I know it's not the prettiest solution, but if you can cast a flange anyways, why not just cast a flange and bolt a stainless pipe to it that runs to a remote wastegate? Naturally you'd want the shrotest distance possible, but you could at least throw an elbow in there or something to make some room.

I'm sure there's a better way to do it. I'll be sure to let you know what that way is once I find it.

-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

You guys like my "furbocharger." Same size as a 35R...




-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

That's cool. You gonna do anything with it?

Just use it to take in-car measurements, rather than guessing about how things will fit.


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

foam and legos

turbo system design at its finest :thumbsup

Hey Paul, any news on the manifold(s)? I just thought I remembered reading you say they should be pretty far along by July. Just curious.

Things have developed significantly.

I originally wanted this manifold to accommodate ALL stock features (A/C, PS, fans, etc.). After measuring everything many times, and after giving it a lot of thought, I decided that the manifold will require you to ditch the stockers and convert to a pusher setup.

If you shop wisely, you should be able to find good fans for under $100... in the scheme of things, that really doesn't add much to the total cost of a turbo kit, and it affords a lot more space for a quality manifold.

The first templates for the kit will be completed within a week or so. The first cast manifolds should be available in 4-8 weeks after that, however, depending on the system my partner and I establish, I may need to set up a group buy transaction before ordering the batch.

On the other hand, another template will be shipped to another partner of mine to have a welded version made. These should be ready within 3 weeks after the template is shipped out. They'll be made of heavy gauge stainless (flanges and all), and professionally TIGd.

While the welded manifolds will be completed sooner, they'll probably cost twice as much. But they'll be reliable, and a good option for high horsepower applications. The cast manifolds, on the other hand, will also be extremely reliable, but also cost-effective, and better flowing than anything on the market now.

In any event, you guys will finally have options... log-style manifolds won't be the style anymore. The cast and welded versions will also be interchangeable (more or less), so you shouldn't have to reconfigure IC or exhaust piping if you decided to swap them out.

Here's what the welded version might look something like...




-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

Originally posted by VelocitaPaola
ditch the stockers and convert to a pusher setup.

Do you mean just ditch the stock fans or ditch everything(PS, A/C)?

Sorry, I meant just ditch the stock fans. The PS and A/C will be retained.


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

Wow, that looks very impressive. One question, is there going to be any place for an external wastegate? Anyways, keep up the great work :thumbsup

Wow... looks amazing! Why'd you have to go and make two options, I don't know which one I'll want more now. Both are reliable/durable, both will flow really well, welded looks better, cast is cheaper... Hmmm

Anyway great work so far! Really looking forward to these new manifolds!

Originally posted by Murfsmaster
Wow, that looks very impressive. One question, is there going to be any place for an external wastegate? Anyways, keep up the great work :thumbsup

You bet. 35/38mm wastegate flanges will be standard.


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

Two quick questions -

Any idea in price range for the welded manifold?

Also, when converting to pusher setup and retaining AC, how do you retain the condenser? Has anyone here ever fit pushers between the FMIC and condenser and still have room for air to move? Any pics anywhere?

Stuart

And i forgot - what turbo frame is this being setup for? Like a GT35R with S-cover? Or something else?

Sure, there's enough room between the IC and A/C condenser. Take a look at this... two 12" fans, pushing 1,300CFM+ through the AC condenser and radiator. No overheating issues, and the AC is as cold as ever.



It's being designed with the GT35R (standard 0.70A/R Garrett compressor cover) in mind, as that's generally considered to be the largest T3 flanged turbo available.


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

Thanks - now just "Any idea in price range for the welded manifold?"

Stuart

I haven't calculated it yet... I need to discuss that with my partner. I don't want to speculate and tell you a price that isn't accurate.


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

I m seriously interested in a welded mani. Please let me know when they will be available and what the price is.

Plan for my car has changed, I think I need one now.

Tom

I thought the purpose of these was going to be so members could still use their stock radiator/fans, p/s and a/c ?

I tried as hard as I could, but you of all people should know how hard it is to fit everything up there. PS and A/C are a priority, but the fans had to go.


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

Sorry if this sounds like a newb question but... can you take the stock fans and just figure out a way to mount them up front or do you have to buy specifically designed pusher fans?

The blades are facing the wrong direction and they're probably too thick... I found a good set of two 12" fans on eBay that pull 1,300+ CFM and come with a warranty for about $55 shipped.


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

Oh wow only $55? That's not bad at all, I was expecting them to be a lot more.

Edit - you said "pull 1300 cfm"... did you mean push?

Originally posted by chris712vt
Edit - you said "pull 1300 cfm"... did you mean push?

Yeah, whatever. :-)

They're completely reversible.

-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

http://www.vsracing.net/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=48&products_id=338

not a bad deal here at 1600cfm. Just not sure if straight blade is the way to go? anyone else got any links?

I think straight blades are fine. I've heard curved ones are "better" because they're a little quieter, but I think that was just a bunch of marketing BS.


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

Turbo's in, and the template is finished... it's off to the manufacturer tomorrow. The welded manifolds will be available shortly. Production for the cast ones will begin shortly thereafter.





-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

awesome! looking forward to some pics of the final products, and prices too ;-)

Originally posted by VelocitaPaola
The welded manifolds will be available shortly.

What is the pricing on the welded one? 200-400? 400-600? 600-800? 800-1000? 1000+?

What is it going to look like - is it a ramhorn, is it like a "short-ram", or something else? Is it going to look like the picture of the welded manifold above? Have an CAD picture to show us?

Stuart

Originally posted by pghsebring
What is the pricing on the welded one? 200-400? 400-600? 600-800? 800-1000? 1000+? What is it going to look like - is it a ramhorn, is it like a "short-ram", or something else? Is it going to look like the picture of the welded manifold above? Have an CAD picture to show us? Stuart

I'm obligated on both a professional level not to speak about pricing until the final price is set in stone. I don't want to set a tentative price and be way off...

It will not be a ramhorn manifold, but rather an offset equal-length manifold, with the flange pushed to the right. It will look something like the manifold posted above -- same welds, same materials and flange work.

I don't have a CAD drawing of the manifold, just the flanges in 3D space.

-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

I've been waiting for something like this since "the beginning." Very elegant design, efficient, and offers reliability. Velo, that's just awesome work, keep it up.

lol that would not work the wastegate would go through the radiator.

I wouldn't mind something like the obx design. But one that would actually fit. I think they look sexy

I can see this thread is getting too long, because people aren't reading everything. That design was made long before I had any real measurements to work with. It was only a concept... however, the wastegate could fit there if angled properly.


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

I know that was just a model. I liked how the wastegate was placed near the collector though.

and this is the longest thread I've seen outside of the old pits

Originally posted by ivan300
lol that would not work the wastegate would go through the radiator.

I wasn't talking about you, Erik... :-)


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

Originally posted by ivan300
lol that would not work the wastegate would go through the radiator.

Christ...

I'm too hungover to come up with a sufficient flame to make you feel how I'd like you to feel for posting that. We'll settle for...

STFU stupidass.

Is somebody going to actually make something here or is this thread going to become a useless discussion like the RWD post that lasted for months? Personally I think this should get locked down until a product is created.

Fine. Lock it.

I'm waiting on the tubular version to finish being produced.

I may need this thread to notify everyone about the cast version though... I'm not sure how production will pan out -- it might be on a group buy basis.


-http://www.symtechlabs.com/-

Let me know when the cast one is ready and the price. I may be interested at that time.