Hey all,


I am looking to find out some more info on the use of propane injection. I have seen a couple of old post about this but unfortunitly allot of the links and such no longer work. Any way the reason i am really interested in this is cause i have heard really good things about this being used on diesel but i have only recently been introduced to the use of this on our platforms, but i am having a hard time finding more info on the matter i have looked on dsmtuners too but it was hard to make out some of those post cause they got really off topic.


also just to give you a better background on the car i would be using it on...

97' 420a auto
stock everything but new head gasket and arp studs
will have a hahn turbo kit(16g) w/255 intake pump, vortech 12:1 fmu, front mount with custom tubing, and some other goodies and planning on 5psi for starters until i get done building up my spare engine



so far the info that i am getting is that there seems to be only the one kit available and that is the ipo kit. Also propane will help to up the octane of your pump gas(as to how much i am having trouble finding out). And that it will also help to lower the intake temps

well i know acouple of you must be using propane :+

Are you talking about alcohol injection? I have never heard of anything using Propane, lol.

propane injection has been around for quite a few years now. It is becomming very common with gasoline engines as well the only thing I ca really find is using propane as an alternate fuel. I cant find any infor where it is beneficial as a performance option.

Terry

I have herd of people doing this with a diesel, never with a gas engine though? It kinda sounds like a hillbilly form of N20, I don't see why people would use it though, first of all its heavy, well compared to N20 or Methane, and while it dose has a high octane so you wouldn't be faced with knock, there is little evidence to support use with a 420a and being safe, and lastly IMO it would be really dangerous!

Originally posted by talon749
I have herd of people doing this with a diesel, never with a gas engine though? It kinda sounds like a hillbilly form of N20, I don't see why people would use it though, first of all its heavy, well compared to N20 or Methane, and while it dose has a high octane so you wouldn't be faced with knock, there is little evidence to support use with a 420a and being safe, and lastly IMO it would be really dangerous!

from the info i gather N2O is an oxidizer. Basically what is, is an knock supressant and an artificial way of introducing more oxygen into the engine. With more oxygen you can add more fuel and the final ingredeint of a spark you get more power.

propane is a fuel. It too supresses knock because of its temp. its an added fuel source, and it has the added benefit of a higher octane level

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon
propane injection has been around for quite a few years now. It is becomming very common with gasoline engines as well the only thing I ca really find is using propane as an alternate fuel. I cant find any infor where it is beneficial as a performance option. Terry

old post from here, back from 03(don't think i was on here back then)
http://forums.2gnt.com/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=8&topic_id=82931&mode=full
From what turbo8u says there seems to be some old school guys on here that has used it.

I don't really think it would be really a major performance thing, i like it though cause i hear it helps with detonation, helps to cool intake temps, it raises the octane. And if it does all that i am guessing i could keep filling up with 87 and hopefully the propane will bump the octane rating up to more of a 93+ and at a cheaper cost(minus the cost of the kit $300ish)



edit: also found a post about it on dsmtuners
http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?s=e6b6226a42f7694cb805e9252471f29f&t=43707&pp=25&highlight=ipo+propane

that is an interesting thread maybe you could be the one to bring this forgotten form or induction back to 2gnt?

Thats what i hope to do. And i bet i will be the first to bring it to the other two forums i frequent.

if youre looking to prevent detonation, look into a water/alcohol injection setup or methanol injection. as far as propane, personally I plan to convert my car(s) to propane 100%. its cheaper, cleaner and has the potential for more power than straight pump gas. Id like to see a cold start on pump gas, and once its warm switch to propane.

propane is a fuel yes, n20 is an oxidizer you are correct. if you spray the correct amount of propane with n20, you'll make power.

the big advantage I see to propane is a full conversion, which is common on a lot of cars in europe for example.

thanks for the reply, i was hoping to hear your comments as i see you seem to know allot about the topic.


What though about the topic of it being a octane booster, if i use it to bump 87 up more would it be worth it?


Also i am not sure if one is really better then the other (when you compare propane to water/alcohol injection setup). I really also don't know to much about water/alcohol injection setup so i am not sure of all the possibilities(i'll read up more on it). But i am assuming that alcohol injection will also too help bump the octane of pump gas, but i am curious as to how often you would need to refill the alcohol and as to how expensive it would be in the long run.

Also the car will remain my DD so i don't won't a system that will constantly run out. From what i hear propane injection last about a month(15lb bottle)

im pro water/alcohol.

Yes propane is 110 octane, yes its cheaper, Yes it leaves no deposits and yes an liquid that turns into a gas will cool.

But, its not that cheap, its not THAT widely available. Also the equipment and conversion are not cheap or readily available. Also keep in mind the weight of said tank ( has to hold thousands of pounds of pressure and car impacts) and related equipment.

Also there is less energy in it, less MPG. Remember still, its price and availability is directly related to other non-renewable fuels.

Now alcohol and water...everywhere for 99 cents a gallon. It lasts every fill up ( depending on your tank and use). It cools, cleans, slightly increases octane. pressures are safe, lines pumps, tanks all available and relatively cheap.

if youre still on the stock ECU, spraying propane and not re-tuning it wont serve you any benefit. Yes octane will be higher, but you will also be richer unless you pull out some of the gasoline thats there. Propane conversions arent very hard to put together, ive seen a lot and theyre awesome, only problem is cold start thats why I think a small but functional gasoline warm up is a good idea.

Water/alcohol on a boost activated switch is a very nice way of having some knock control when it counts.

whelp, i think you guys sold me on Water/alcohol then. But a propane conversion sounds like a cool idea down the road, please keep me updated on how that turns out for you. Thank you both on the info, like i said maybe later when i look more into engine management i will look more into propane.

A/f ratios

Gas 14.7 : 1
Alcohol 6.5 : 1
Propane 15.6 : 1

I'll chime in on this, the primary use of propane as an octane booster in the sport compact world is as a supplemental boost for Turbo+Nitrous systems where it is neccesary to run a higher octane rating momentarily. What I understand about it is that if one's engine neccesitated 97 octane for 20psi of boost, but 110 octane for 20psi+ 150hp shot of nitrous, then he/she could fill the gas tank with 97 octane and have the propane spray when the nitrous sprays to provide the higher octane only when needed. This is an upper level tuning trick, one that would be completely unneccesary on a vehicle running low boost settings (sub-15psi) and no nitrous. As well, alchol injection has been around longer than this particular form of octane booster, and is more widely understood and accepted.