I've got some guys getting ready to tune my car on the dyno. They dont feel comfortable tuning it under 13lbs of boost without being able to retard the timing. I'm just wondering what you guys do about timing at this level. Thnx.

Do you have any sort of timing adjustment as in like an MSD Box of standalone? If not there isn't much you can do about timing but have a datalogger and see what it's pulling at WOT. Also, how are they "TUNIG" the car anyways? What are they going to tune....the SFMU?

Originally posted by Blizare
Do you have any sort of timing adjustment as in like an MSD Box of standalone? If not there isn't much you can do about timing but have a datalogger and see what it's pulling at WOT. Also, how are they "TUNIG" the car anyways? What are they going to tune....the SFMU?

No timing adjustment. The guy tried to convince me to get the MSD box or go with some AEM standalone. I'm too broke for the standalone, lol. They're tuning it on a dyno with the SAFC II that's on the car. Thnx :)

Should I go ahead and order the MSD box? Is timing adjustment a MUST for 13lbs?

I'm pretty sure with 91 octane and 13psi the ecu will be pulling timing back to like 17degrees or so. All you can really do with the SAFC is pull pull/add fuel. No timing adjustments. I believe there are a few guys who have the msd box with the little in-car adjustment knob and it works pretty well.

Really dood, you could have FULL control over your motor with the megasquirt. I know I know, it's hard to learn all that jibber jab but with knowledge comes horsepower :)

Would you pay $300 to get 30 more hp out of your car just because it's TUNED right? :P I would.

I ran 18psi on a S16G with nothing more than an SAFC, 440's, and SFMU. :shrug

If the dyno guys dont feel comfortable tuning with an SAFC, you probably dont want them tuning your car.

You really are wasting your money tuning a SAFC 2, i ran 18psi with the super 16G with not SAFC, just 42lb injectors and S-FMU, and now running a SC61 at 10psi with no timing adjustments, last i datalogged it was pulled 17 degrees wot. I wouldnt call that tuning, i hope everything goes well for you, good luck.

Originally posted by freddy_00_69
last i datalogged it was pulled 17 degrees wot. I wouldnt call that tuning, i hope everything goes well for you, good luck.

Thats what I was thinking :P

be carful with that safc. If the people are doing the tuning dont realize that the safc2 wont do much for putting fuel in or taking it out they may adjust it too much tring to get a good a/f ration and cause your timing to fuck up. Say goodby to your engine at that point. IMO sell it and buy a good fuel controller like the megasquirt or an 8 injector setup. Squirt is a bit cheaper and you can get some timing control out of it, but the 8 injector does work. Im not knocking the sfmu at all. It does work with proper tuning and can go a long way...

Originally posted by RxR_Eclipse
Im not knocking the sfmu at all. It does work with proper tuning and can go a long way...

But look at your car......267hp @ 15psi tuned with MSNS. You have total control over your motor for a little bit more money than an safc.

I bet that feels nice.

I'm knocking the safc BTW :P :P

Originally posted by Blizare
I'm knocking the safc BTW :P :P

C'mon man. It sure is pretty though. You have to admit having all those blinky lights on your dash can put the ladies in a trance-like state.

Originally posted by djtrickee

Originally posted by Blizare I'm knocking the safc BTW :P :P

C'mon man. It sure is pretty though. You have to admit having all those blinky lights on your dash can put the ladies in a trance-like state.

Yea.... panties come a flyin off when they see the blue screen!

yea, whenever i see the dreaded 'what can a safc do for me' post i always think, GET THE FUCKING REV SPEED METER! I know the afc looks cool and I had one at one time but it really does not do much for the 420a platform. You can use it to 'fine tune', but even those adjustments are almost worthless and would only be visible with a datalogger and a wideband(which will cost you more than your safc and is worth way more).

I have a the PLX wideband unit and S-FMU and the car runs good, a/f reading 11-12 at wot at 9psi. Sell the SAFC, our motors are not like the Honda motors.

Yea i agree with u guys. I'm going to sell the SAFC and probably get Portfueler. It's a lot of money but I'm tired of messing with this damn car and it's fuel problems. Some of u are familiar with the problem I had recently with not getting enough fuel and i have a complete fuel system that should support at least 10 psi of boost, if not much more. Some guys who just looked at it said it's a problem with the fuel pressure regulator or injectors. The injectors are fine I'm almost certain. I've had 3 sets of injectors in the car and none of them improved the situation. So I'm guessing the fuel pressure regulator.

Can someone tell me the difference between the fuel pressure regulator and the FMU? Because for the longest time I thought they were the same thing, recently someone told me they're not and now I'm all confused.

Another thing that comes to mind with the 'not getting enough fuel' issue is I'm not really certain which disc is in the FMU. It's an adjustable 4:1 Holley for boosted applications. Idle FP from the FMU I know is 55lbs. Can someone please clear some of these things up with me? thanks

idle FP has nothing to do with the disc as far as I'm concerned. You really need to know what disc is inside there right now. It will then tell us what kind of raise rate your getting when under boost.

If you ran 7psi and had the 4:1 disc in there it would raise the FP 4psi per psi of boost. I'm sure you know that already.

7x4=28 psi above Idle Fp. So 50psi IDLE FP + 28psi from the fmu

= not enough fuel

What injectors are you trying to run right now?

If your running larger than stock you know you have to drop the idle fp....right?

Do you have a FP gauge hooked up?

If your running stock injectors you need to have around 100psi FP at the rail! That would mean a rise of 7:1 so that would mean it should be really lean under boost if set at 4:1

Please find out which disc you have in there....take pictures of the other parts and we might be able to help a little bit.

EDIT: a FP REGULATOR - keeps the FP in the rail at a constant. It too uses the engines vacume and when you go WOT (there is 0 vacume) the diaphram opens and bumps the fuel up from say 52psi at idle to 62 at WOT.
That is how it works on pretty much every car.

Originally posted by Blizare
idle FP has nothing to do with the disc as far as I'm concerned. You really need to know what disc is inside there right now. It will then tell us what kind of raise rate your getting when under boost. If you ran 7psi and had the 4:1 disc in there it would raise the FP 4psi per psi of boost. I'm sure you know that already. 7x4=28 psi above Idle Fp. So 50psi IDLE FP + 28psi from the fmu = not enough fuel What injectors are you trying to run right now? If your running larger than stock you know you have to drop the idle fp....right? Do you have a FP gauge hooked up? If your running stock injectors you need to have around 100psi FP at the rail! That would mean a rise of 7:1 so that would mean it should be really lean under boost if set at 4:1 Please find out which disc you have in there....take pictures of the other parts and we might be able to help a little bit. EDIT: a FP REGULATOR - keeps the FP in the rail at a constant. It too uses the engines vacume and when you go WOT (there is 0 vacume) the diaphram opens and bumps the fuel up from say 52psi at idle to 62 at WOT. That is how it works on pretty much every car.

k, I'm going to check what disc is in there in the morning. But from what I can gather, no matter what disc it is... it's not going to provide enough fuel right? 4:1 is the maximum fuel it will supply. I did not know you had to drop FP with larger injectors. I guess it makes sense tho.

I'm running 450cc injectors. As far as being lean under boost ur exactly right. The entire time I've been trying to figure out my problem with fuel not getting to the engine that's probably the reason. Either way, in my next post I'll try to have some detailed pics.

Now my understanding for the fmu is better and the rise rate I already understood kinda well, just didn't put 2 and 2 together and figure out I wasn't getting enough fuel in there. But tell me this, if 4:1 is the max that my fmu runs, it makes sense to me that it's the wrong FMU for my application - so is this right? It's late and I'm a little tired so my thoughts could be a bit unclear, but is the fuel pressure needed found through Corbin's fuel calculations?

We all are way too familiar with your situation... Our cars are an untapped beast -boost is intoxicating. It is inevitable, you will want more out of your car -and you can get it. With some reading, and around $300, or even as low as $170-200 if you do your research. That buys you full control your car and piece of mind.

I used to have the portfueler, and I got rid of it after it almost set my car on fire from a stuck open injector. If your like me or most people on this forum -you want speed and reliability. After 5 engine rebuilds -this shit gets old. We learn from our mistakes, but let me tell you that it sucks always trying to find 100+ octane to run 18psi+ on the S16G. What happens if you don't mix it right, or you run out of gas. Coming from carrying a 5 gallon gas can of CAM2 in the trunk to fill up out there in the city at the races blows. The MSD ignition box costs more than the megasquirt. You should spend your money wisely given the information presented.

After being MS'd i feel very hesitant to tune these cars to the max without full control of fuel,timing, and a whole bunch of other shit. How about being able to decide what kinds and what brands of sensors to use on the car without being stuck paying high deal part costs when replacing stock sensors.

I know you want to hear how tune your car with an fmu, but in the end, if your goal is to be fast and reliable, you will need megasquirt.

He's right.

But......Yes your 4:! is def not enough fuel no matter what. A 12:1 would be better suited but since I know now that you have 450's in, I def get an SFMU which you can change the rate more than the part you have.

But for the price of the Vortech SFMU, you could probably get MSnS.

It shouldn't be a tough call here. If you want to put down good power AND maybe not have to worry so much about the car cause you know EVERYTHING thats going on inside......I'd get the MS.

A few people have put down over 300whp with 440's and and sfmu. But thats borderline tuning.

Well I've always heard good things about the megasquirt. But there are a couple of problems that I run into with it. I've heard that it's difficult to set up - and from my posts, u guys know I'm far from being a car genius.

Something else that falls hand-in-hand with this is that I've read your car will not run at all if Megasquirt runs into problems. Because of this I'm afraid of using this system. With my lack of knowledge, I probably can't set it up... not only this but no one around my area knows anything about it, and if my car stops running I'd probably just be SOL.

In terms of cost I would be ALL for this system, I just don't know if I could handle it. But if it's as good as u guys say it is I'll look around and see if I can find some manuals about it.

One more thing, at high levels of boost wouldn't the MS bring insane FP levels? I mean I know a lot of ppl are running this system so it has to work. But what ways are there to deal with the high FPs? Does the MS sitll use an FMU to adjust rise rate? I'm gonna do some reading on it so dont feel obligated to try and explain all the answers to these questions. These are just some of the things going through my head.

One other thing, I'm looking to make 350-400whp right now, perhaps more later on when I learn more. On the megasquirt site, they say it supports up to 21lbs of boost. Will the 21psi limit for MS conflict with my hp goals?

Here are the pics of my FMU.

We stacked two of the discs on top of each other (not sure if that's how it's supposed to be done or not) but the car seems to be doing a little better... still nowhere near what's needed tho.

Originally posted by evotunedscc
at high levels of boost wouldn't the MS bring insane FP levels?


Does the MS sitll use an FMU to adjust rise rate? I'm gonna do some reading on it so dont feel obligated to try and explain all the answers to these questions. These are just some of the things going through my head.

No you wouldn't have high FP. You have lower FP with larger injectors

And No, you tell the ecu WHAT SIZE injectors you have in there and set them up how you want ie:how long the injector stay open. I believe most use the aeromotive 1:1 for a slight FP increase.

Originally posted by evotunedscc
I've got some guys getting ready to tune my car on the dyno. They dont feel comfortable tuning it under 13lbs of boost without being able to retard the timing. I'm just wondering what you guys do about timing at this level. Thnx.

You do not need to make timing adjustments unless you pass 23lbs of boost.

Have fun.

Originally posted by siueclipse

Originally posted by evotunedscc I've got some guys getting ready to tune my car on the dyno. They dont feel comfortable tuning it under 13lbs of boost without being able to retard the timing. I'm just wondering what you guys do about timing at this level. Thnx.

You do not need to make timing adjustments unless you pass 23lbs of boost. Have fun.

On your old setup, what did you use for timing adjustments for the other guy to get 400+whp? Just learning about it, i am gonna get it soon, and i am running the SC61 on my car now at 10psi. PM if you can some info on your old setup just to get an idea. Thanks

I had an MSD box but i have no idea what the new owner did to it.

Originally posted by siueclipse
You do not need to make timing adjustments unless you pass 23lbs of boost. Have fun.

That's totally arbitrary and incorrect. boost is not consistent or linear between different setups. You should know better.

You pull timing when it knocks. If you're running some amount of boost and it knocks, you can reduce boost, add octane, or retard timing. Anyone who dyno tunes turbo cars should know this and if they don't you need to find a different dyno shop.

Anyone able to tell me how the MS does at idle and under transitional modes with 450cc injectors?

Originally posted by evotunedscc
Anyone able to tell me how the MS does at idle and under transitional modes with 450cc injectors?

You tell it you have 450's. It's not like slappin a 450cc in your car with the stock ecu running them.

Ok, these are the things I dont have but realize I should get. Which ones are a must and which ones can wait?

-Megasquirt (a MUST I know)
-Wideband O2
-Wideband O2 gauge
-MSD box for timing retard (through megatune software can MS take care of ignition timing?)

Megasquirt MSnS Takes care of timing adjustments.

Wideband o2 can connect to MS, but you would probably want a gauge anyways.

Ok, I just checked out the Zeitronix Wideband O2 and read-out meter (Zt-2). Has them listed for $279?? Is this the right thing? I expected to pay atleast $500+

can't go wrong with the zeitronix...many guys on here have it, buddy of mine here has it....and oh yeah, I got it for christmas :D

if you go w/out the lcd display as I did, you'll have to use your laptop

k, when i get the zeitronix, are there any modifications that need to be made for installation? I have a bung on my downpipe where the current O2 is plugged in, what do I do with the original sensor after the wideband has been installed?

Originally posted by evotunedscc
what do I do with the original sensor after the wideband has been installed?

You'd use both if you weren't using MS.

If your using MS its another story. You wouldn't need the other o2 sensor i believe.

umm...I'm just replacing my factory o2 sensor with the zeitronix bosch one. the zt-2 has a narrowband output to feed the ecu, and that's what I'll be doing even though I don't have ms yet.