Okay as most of you know, shootout weekend, my timing belt slipped off and bent my intake valves....

So I bought a used head and slapped it on there.
I got everything back together and heres what up...

When I first started it, it would even stay running, vac was @ -6. Checked for vac leaks, and found nothing. Did a diagnostic test and got these codes:
-Water temp circuit too high
-Bank 1 too rich
-Cam Angle sensor
-EGR (common tho cuz i have a block off)
-Throttle Position Sensor
-IAC

Erased them and got none of them back. Started the car, idled fine, BUT I puff a lot of white'ish grayish smoke out the exhaust.

I put the MLS HG on, and torqued the APR studs to 50-70-90-95.
There is no oil mixed in the coolant or none of that.

So then the CEL came back on. Checked it and got this:
-Ignition control module Primary/Secondary
-Ignition module Primary/Secondary

Erased those and still comes back. Now, I drive it around the block and no smoke while driving, boost 12psi and no smoke. Only when idling or reving it.

My timing is dead ass on. Rotate it 2 times to double check, dead ass on, couldnt get any better actually.

I pull the plugs, drenched in fuel and completely black from driving for like 5 mins, check compression and get 180-180-180-180 which is good cuz im 8.6 compression.

So question is, what is causing this smoke? The pickup for the module is the crank then cam sensor right? Would the crank angle sensor do this or wtf?

Mike what are the p codes?


Terry

well I had a similar problem when I put my rebuilt head in. I everything perfectly but when i started it out the head started throwing up water from somewhere on the block. Hella water started shooting/smoking out of the exhuast. Stopped the car checked for leaks and such. I was terrified that I had installed the gasket wrong or something but let it idle for like 15 minutes and everything seemed fine. Drove it around seemed fine. My guess is that something needed to be heated up to seal properly. To this day I don't have any problem with the head.

so if I were you I wouldn't worry too much about it just check to see if anything doesn't seem right for a while.

I am going to let it idle today for like 40 minutes to see if it goes away. The HG is deff on right.

I will scan again today and get you the P codes Terry.

Only code im getting now is the EGR. I swapped to factory coil pack and wires and car bucked real bad at idle. Had a hard time idling but no smoke? WTF?

Could a cracked ring or bad wires, plugs or coil pack make smoke? Nevrer heard of it hapening, but I dont know what else to try. Makes no sense.

Anyone else have any idea's?

have u checked the valve seals? my car was smoking every time i started it and a lil during driving cause they were bad. i just re did them yesterday and now its perfect again.

Machine shop said everything was fine on it.

Like I said above, i swapped to the factory coil pack and wires and got no smoke. But the car bucked badly.

Gonna exchange my msd wires and coil for new ones tonight and see what happens.

i dunno why ignition wires would have to do with smoking but maybe its triggering something else to get whacked out and making it run rich or something. just a guess i dunno .

Here are the trouble codes, anyone know what they mean?

P0351 - Ignition Coil A Primary/Secondary Circuit Malfunction.
P0352 - Ignition Coil B Primary/Secondary Circuit Malfunction.

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST
Here are the trouble codes, anyone know what they mean?
P0351 - Ignition Coil A Primary/Secondary Circuit Malfunction.
P0352 - Ignition Coil B Primary/Secondary Circuit Malfunction.

You have an MSD and no tach adapters. Is my assumption correct? It means that the ECU doesn't see the coil because your MSD is there. Normal codes unless you have the tach adapter.

Originally posted by Avenger

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST Here are the trouble codes, anyone know what they mean? P0351 - Ignition Coil A Primary/Secondary Circuit Malfunction. P0352 - Ignition Coil B Primary/Secondary Circuit Malfunction.

You have an MSD and no tach adapters. Is my assumption correct? It means that the ECU doesn't see the coil because your MSD is there. Normal codes unless you have the tach adapter.

Yes I have an MSD Coil pack with no tach adapter. Why wouldnt the ecu see the coil? Its a direct replacement from the stock one correct?

And, I have never had these codes until now.

This is also going to sound stupid, but...

I pulled the plugs out and looked down thru the head and onto the top of the pistons, and they look super as wet. Before I recal seeing them black'ish from carbon and what not, but now they look real wet, kinda like fuel on sheetmetal, lol. Is that normal? I dont recal.

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST

Originally posted by Avenger

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST Here are the trouble codes, anyone know what they mean? P0351 - Ignition Coil A Primary/Secondary Circuit Malfunction. P0352 - Ignition Coil B Primary/Secondary Circuit Malfunction.

You have an MSD and no tach adapters. Is my assumption correct? It means that the ECU doesn't see the coil because your MSD is there. Normal codes unless you have the tach adapter.

Yes I have an MSD Coil pack with no tach adapter. Why wouldnt the ecu see the coil? Its a direct replacement from the stock one correct? And, I have never had these codes until now.

I meant an MSD ignition amp (or any other ignition amp for that matter). If you don't have one of these and you're still getting those codes then either the coil pack is bad, wiring is messed up, or the ECU is f'd.

Originally posted by Avenger

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST

Originally posted by Avenger

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST Here are the trouble codes, anyone know what they mean? P0351 - Ignition Coil A Primary/Secondary Circuit Malfunction. P0352 - Ignition Coil B Primary/Secondary Circuit Malfunction.

You have an MSD and no tach adapters. Is my assumption correct? It means that the ECU doesn't see the coil because your MSD is there. Normal codes unless you have the tach adapter.

Yes I have an MSD Coil pack with no tach adapter. Why wouldnt the ecu see the coil? Its a direct replacement from the stock one correct? And, I have never had these codes until now.

I meant an MSD ignition amp (or any other ignition amp for that matter). If you don't have one of these and you're still getting those codes then either the coil pack is bad, wiring is messed up, or the ECU is f'd.

I think your right , judging from his sig he has a crane firball ignition.....and maybe the wiring was bumped a little during the head change and its robbing the ecu of the 5v signal if he doesn't have the tach adapter.

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST
This is also going to sound stupid, but... I pulled the plugs out and looked down thru the head and onto the top of the pistons, and they look super as wet. Before I recal seeing them black'ish from carbon and what not, but now they look real wet, kinda like fuel on sheetmetal, lol. Is that normal? I dont recal.

Your seeing a bunch of raw fuel in the cylinder?? Your cranking the motor over and it hasn't really burned it. So its puddling? could it be you have stuck injectors or something set wrong also. I remember you haveing a super rich condition not to long ago.

The fireball was ditched abotu a month ago, i didnt like it. everythign ran fine after that until i got this head on.

i looked down my exhaust pipe today by the rear wheel where it starts bend, and it was all soaked and wet. i stuck a sock down there taped onto a broom stick, pulled it out, and it was dripping wet. it didnt look like coolant, just water like condinsation. but it smokes pretty good, so i dont know, you'd think it would go away. i also notice my egts are like 820 idle when its usually 950-1000. so its running really cool now. im going to let it get super ass hot tomorrow, and then pull the plugs and then take em out, and see if any water shoots out up top when i crank it, that will tell me if coolant is getting into the system.

i dont know what else to try. my comp is 180 across the board.

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST
The fireball was ditched abotu a month ago, i didnt like it. everythign ran fine after that until i got this head on. i looked down my exhaust pipe today by the rear wheel where it starts bend, and it was all soaked and wet. i stuck a sock down there taped onto a broom stick, pulled it out, and it was dripping wet. it didnt look like coolant, just water like condinsation. but it smokes pretty good, so i dont know, you'd think it would go away. i also notice my egts are like 820 idle when its usually 950-1000. so its running really cool now. im going to let it get super ass hot tomorrow, and then pull the plugs and then take em out, and see if any water shoots out up top when i crank it, that will tell me if coolant is getting into the system. i dont know what else to try. my comp is 180 across the board.

no one with any other ideas?!?

Slow down brother you are all over the place here. First off if you do not have the crane box in your car anymore then those codes are telling you something is wrong with your ign system. So if you are not sparking then you will dump raw fuel into the exhust and then it will cause smoking, However the motor is NOT running rough correct? Bottom line you have some ignition wireing or componets that are not working correctly, and you may also have a rich situation to deal with also. So get the ignition corrected and we will go from there.

Originally posted by Kirby
Slow down brother you are all over the place here. First off if you do not have the crane box in your car anymore then those codes are telling you something is wrong with your ign system. So if you are not sparking then you will dump raw fuel into the exhust and then it will cause smoking, However the motor is NOT running rough correct? Bottom line you have some ignition wireing or componets that are not working correctly, and you may also have a rich situation to deal with also. So get the ignition corrected and we will go from there.

LOL. Ya the crane hasnt been in there for like a month now and it ran fine before hand. I drove the car like 2 nights ago for about 15 mins and it ran fine. My fuel is okay, I have a wbo2 and my a/f ratio is pretty perfect.

I am going now to get a new a MSD pack and wires.
I will post after I get those installed and see what happens.

Went to a mechanic i know and he did a leak down test, I have no blowby at all. He said the white smoke smells like fuel kinda.

Told me to get some injector cleaner shit and see what happens. I no longer have codes for ignition coil, but now I have bank 1 too rich but my wbo2 at idle is 14.7. I thought that was nearly perfect?

Okay pulled the plugs and when I pulled #3 plug out and smoke came out top of the valve cover, whats that mean?

Are you sure you didn't damage the cam angle sensor when you had the head off? is the magnet in the exhaust cam? I find it strange your not seeing black smoke when driving. Are you sure everything the mechanic told you is actually true?

Originally posted by WickedESi
Are you sure you didn't damage the cam angle sensor when you had the head off? is the magnet in the exhaust cam? I find it strange your not seeing black smoke when driving. Are you sure everything the mechanic told you is actually true?

If the magnet was bad, i dont think the car would start. yes the magnet is on the cam still. i see no smoke at all while driving, only when coming to an idle. sometmes it doesnt even do it @ idle after driving.

what does it mean tho when yuo pull a plug our and smoke comes from that cylinder through the valve cover hole for the plug?

jesus god this smoke sucks, anyone have any ideas what to try?

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST
jesus god this smoke sucks, anyone have any ideas what to try?

I think its been said, are you sure that head was any good? valves,valve seals, cracked ect ect? Just seems odd. I know the CR came back ok but is it possible that you scored the walls or something. Have you done a leakdown test?

Originally posted by madhatter210

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST jesus god this smoke sucks, anyone have any ideas what to try?

I think its been said, are you sure that head was any good? valves,valve seals, cracked ect ect? Just seems odd. I know the CR came back ok but is it possible that you scored the walls or something. Have you done a leakdown test?

Leak down test done yesterday, passed with no problem.

head is okay they said.

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST

Originally posted by madhatter210

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST jesus god this smoke sucks, anyone have any ideas what to try?

I think its been said, are you sure that head was any good? valves,valve seals, cracked ect ect? Just seems odd. I know the CR came back ok but is it possible that you scored the walls or something. Have you done a leakdown test?

Leak down test done yesterday, passed with no problem. head is okay they said.

anyone?

I've been having similar problems with white smoke coming and going. Sometimes its bad and other times it dosen't smoke at all. The smell of fuel and water is always present however, so I'm betting 90% on leaking valve seals. I'm not sure if you checked those cus I know you went through your head. I'm sure that's what's causing my smoke and it sounds like what your problem is. :shrug

p.s. I also live in FL. where it rains frequently so I get a fair amount of moisture anyway.

Originally posted by jonnymerk
I've been having similar problems with white smoke coming and going. Sometimes its bad and other times it dosen't smoke at all. The smell of fuel and water is always present however, so I'm betting 90% on leaking valve seals. I'm not sure if you checked those cus I know you went through your head. I'm sure that's what's causing my smoke and it sounds like what your problem is. :shrug p.s. I also live in FL. where it rains frequently so I get a fair amount of moisture anyway.

Its not the seals like i said before. The machine shop went over everythign and said it was good to go. They are the best machine shop in northern Ohio too.

I still dont understand the raw fuel on the tops of some of the pistons and why when I pulled the plugs out the one day, smoke came out from the cylinder and thru the top of the valve cover holes...?

Its seems to me that the ignition isnt working right, you are getting the codes up on the scanner. You are seeing fuel because it is not being ignited in the cylinder.

Try replacing the coil, plug wires, harness and wires to the coil and trace the wires all the way back to see if there are and spots where it got pinched ect. Especially since you had the head removed, and something might have been torn or pinched. If you went back to a stock ignition your connections may not have been as good as they should be.

Just a thought. My car was the king of bad wiring and after replacing a shitload of sensors and parts, i almost gave up. It barely ran. I redid a very large portion of wiring and the car ended up running great.

Originally posted by gotboost2394
Its seems to me that the ignition isnt working right, you are getting the codes up on the scanner. You are seeing fuel because it is not being ignited in the cylinder. Try replacing the coil, plug wires, harness and wires to the coil and trace the wires all the way back to see if there are and spots where it got pinched ect. Especially since you had the head removed, and something might have been torn or pinched. If you went back to a stock ignition your connections may not have been as good as they should be. Just a thought. My car was the king of bad wiring and after replacing a shitload of sensors and parts, i almost gave up. It barely ran. I redid a very large portion of wiring and the car ended up running great.

Okay but what I need to know if is bad wiring would cause the smoking if the ignition was fucked up....

Okay I replaced the coil with a brand new MSD Coil pack, msd wires and new plugs. Still smokes though, now I scan the ECU and I only get bank 1 too rich, no more ignition codes.

So I pull out the front o2 sensor, and its just coated in carbon. I touch it and carbon just chips off of it...

Question is, could a burnt out o2 sensor now cause white smoking? Cuz I get bank 1 too rich code, but my wbo2 is reading 14.7-14.6 at idle.

WTF?

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST
Okay I replaced the coil with a brand new MSD Coil pack, msd wires and new plugs. Still smokes though, now I scan the ECU and I only get bank 1 too rich, no more ignition codes. So I pull out the front o2 sensor, and its just coated in carbon. I touch it and carbon just chips off of it... Question is, could a burnt out o2 sensor now cause white smoking? Cuz I get bank 1 too rich code, but my wbo2 is reading 14.7-14.6 at idle. WTF?

Okay so I figured maybe something got fucked up with my AFC when swapping heads, so what the hell, I remove the wiring for the AFC...

I Completely unplug the ECU (the 2 sets of plugs) and let it sit for about 15 minutes. Come out, start the car and the car just sits @ 2k RPM, still smoking, but not as bad.

I do a OBDII Scan, and now im getting: Bank 1 too lean on 16psi fuel pressure with 440 injectors.

What the fuck should I do, somebody enlighten me on something to atleast try. Could the o2 sensor be fucking up and causing the smoking?

The smoke smells like burnt hot dogs, lol. It doesnt smell like normal oil or coolant being burnt....
HELP!

Sorry for the late reply mike.

Couple things going on here.

You remove the plug from a hot cylinder and you get a puff of smoke. this is either exhasut that hasnt made it out of the cylinder from when you shut it down or this is raw fuel getting into a hot cylinder and evaporating due to high heated piston. the latter suggests a leaking injector.


Your coil codes. Verify the wiring from the ignition box has been returned to normal and you didnt have any wires mixed up. make sure no wires are shorting. you have a new coils and no codes now so lets leave that there. Remove all 4 plugs and wires from the cylinders. lay them on the valve cover to simulate ground and have someone crank over the engine. make sure all 4 are arcing and sparking.

Your lean code! very possible a bad 02 sensor. sensors dont last long while your running pig rich and you ran like that for a good couple weeks.

Wideband says 14.7, thats real good for idle ect and cruising so we know the afc is probably fine. A contributing problem might be the factory O2 throwing off the idle mixture.

Your Head. no machinest in the world can look at a valve seal and guarentee the seal is fine. 1 out of 10 results can be wrong and you should know better than to rule something out becasue someone tells you it is fine. best way to prove the valve seals is remove the turbo manifold and look at the back of the valves for deposits. you can even start it up the see what the exhaust appears like comming out of the head to confirm. At idle (and decel) the engine is at its greatest running vacuum; therefore, it will be more likely the suck oil past the valve seals or rings at idle.

Leakdown was good, i am sure you check compression? just for redundancy and piece of mind.

Since you AFR is pretty good i honestly am leaning towards oil or your so rich that the fuel mixture is still on fire as it enters the manifold. this could easily result in a fuel afr that appears fine. now also keep in mind one of the biproducts or the combustion process is water or moisture.

Do a compression test on the cooling system, presurrize the sytem very high and watch for the gauge (on the testor itself) to move. when testing the cooling system the gauge should not budge as long as your seal to the water neck is good.

pull the downpipe off the turbo and look for oil or water deposits. since the exhaust joint in the rear is wet and dripping water, loosen and separate the rear section and make sure you dont have standing water in your exhaust.

If you want to simplify the troublshooting then remove the afc and install the factory injectors. If it were my car i would because you have had so much trouble working with that damn setup. you can also pull the injector rail from the manifold and pressurize it with the factory fuel pump to make sure one injector is not leaking.

Logic tells you that the head is the culprit or the HD or something went wrong like a wiring issue when you did the job.

Terry

Jesus, I swear, God hates my car...

So I decide to take her out today and drive around to see if the smoking would stop...

So im driving home and all a sudden I hear this HUGE CLANK. I am like WTF!? Okay I figure something just smacked my undercarriage.

So I am sitting at a light now and all I see behind me is some serious crazy smoking going on, im like WTF again, I run 2 lights, pull up the driveway and just see about a 3" wide trail of fluid...

Get out of car in garage, and im standing there looking at the motor until i see OIL all over the floor...

I look under and seeing it abosulte pouring out from somewhere as if you were draining your oil. So clean it all up, push it outside, jack it up and look under and there is about a 1/4" holes in my oil pan. So I am like, great I threw a rod. Checked compression and I get 180 all across again. So I am looking at this hole again and notice that its punctured upward, as if whatever that clank was, put a hole in my pan, not somethign comign my motor down thru it. I havent taken it off yet cuz I didnt have the time too, but I will keep you folks updated on that shit.

Now for the smoking, I let the car run for about 45 minutes idling, and pulled off the wastegate from the manifold to loook inside. It looked as if someone had just sprayed a shitload of black rattlecan inside the manifold. It was very wet looking, but not all over the place, just on the bottom half of the manifold. So after driving around breaking oil pans, I pulled it off again and it was clean, just dry carbon, along with the inside of the exhaust off the turbo. The turbine side of the turbo had like 2 small white spots and i noticed that my plugs were a little on the white side too.

Interesting Huh? What the hell should I do now besides fix the pan, what and gods name is causing the smoking!? My water level does not go down and I believe that if i had a bad valve seal or messed up ring, my compression would be leaking a little bit and not exactly at 180 all across....

SUGGESTIONS PLEEEEEEEEEEASE!

mike just wanted you to know, your car will run without the cam magnet, just not to great. that's what my problem was a couple of months back, i'll look later tongiht when i get the chance and see if i still have the p code wrote down that i was throwing. if you need a hand let me know, its only a 30 minute drive for me to get up there.

EDIT: I am stupid.

EDIT: I am stupider for responding to stupid.

Someone please explain to me how a Valve seal (you know the rubber ones in the head cavity under the springs) can affect your compression?

Mike when you removed the wasegate did you take a q-tip or something to swab what was in the manifold? Rattle can doesnt tell us anything. if its black then you have an oil problem pull the head. But then again since the inside of the manifold is black, if it were clear like wate rthen it would appear black wouldnt it?

You want advise but you dont listen, how are we supposed to help you?

Ya I swabbed inside the manifold with a q-tip actually and it seemed pretty thick, the wetness. May have been oil.

I touched it to my downpipe, and it looked like i had used a paintbrush to paint a dot onto my pipe, real thick blackness, not just carbon dust.

Originally posted by eclipse982nrRST
Ya I swabbed inside the manifold with a q-tip actually and it seemed pretty thick, the wetness. May have been oil. I touched it to my downpipe, and it looked like i had used a paintbrush to paint a dot onto my pipe, real thick blackness, not just carbon dust.

How many miles and what condition were the replacement head you put on it? did you have it tanked and decked? or just slapped it on there?

sell it and buy Honda! :shrug

Theres way too many variables in there that could explain whats wrong with it. It sounds to me like its gonna be a trouble shooting thing to find the problem. Start with the simple things and go from there.

Originally posted by Star Turbo Talon
You want advise but you dont listen, how are we supposed to help you?

Nail. Head.

You have a leaking valve stem seal or three. Now fix it.

The head supposevly had 40k on it, and he said it was decked when he got it, and he just never put it on becuz his engine blew up. It was a built head, and swapped back to stock.

I just slapped it on after I got it back from the machinist and went from there.

I was trying to avoid taking the head off again for downtime and $$$ reasons, but it looks like this head is the problem.

The valve seals seam to be leaking or somethign, I dont nkow what it is, but it looks like sunday the head will be coming back off for the 10 millionth time!

EDIT: I'm still stupid.

Originally posted by turbo8u
edit: this post would have got me in trouble. my advice? get the head off. replace the valve seals and guides, check the head for flatness with a straight edge and feeler gauge. and replace the pan

pan has been welded back.
head is coming off once i find some stainless valves, and new crane springs, retainer, and pt lifters.


dj, get a life. instead of being a bolt on queen and general pain in the ass, why dont you get out and do some real modifications to a 420a platform? just a thought.

this shit is about to get funny and locked.

if it does indeeed get locked, thanks for the all the advice guys, i will sure enough post after the fucking head has been ripped off for the um-teenth time!

EDIT: Still stupider for responding to stupid.

glad you noticed.

stop now, this is uncalled for.