The high performance bottom end kit from Howell Automotive comes with Total Seal piston rings. I've heard good and bad, so help me get through to the truth. Do these work well on the 420A?




1996 Eclipse RS / 5-Speed / Aerogear Body / Coated in Magnetic Red Metallic rev.2 / T3 Turbo Intercooled @ 8 psi / http://www.team2nr.com
Mark Galyan - Indianapolis, Indiana

they better...my parts are now in the mail, inclusing the Total seal rings.

Originally posted by davo345
they better...my parts are now in the mail, inclusing the Total seal rings.

How do you know they're "better" if you haven't even installed them yet?

The Total seals are supposed to have less than 2% leakage during operation but many people have installed them with conventional techniques and have had issues. From what i have read (i could be wrong) the total seals are installed DRY! many people install them with oil and this is where they do not break in correctly.

Technically if conventional rings are broken in right they should be just as effective as total seals in terms of operation. I have seen both work well (in other peoples cars), problems have been traced to possible install techniques.

Since i have never installed them or used them this is all info i have read and compared in my spare time. Like most things i suspect this will be a preference issue. If you do get them just follow the manufacturer install proceedure.

I prefer conventional just because thats what i am used to

Good luck
Terry
96 Eagle talon ESI
Greddy header - Greddy exhaust

97 Eclipse
Star Stage II - Boost/oil/EGT gauges - 3" custom DP/Apexi N1 3" exhaust - SFMU/return line - Apexi SAFC - Stage 2 6 puck Sprung hub MIBA clutch - Shortened shifter - Koni Yellows w/eibach prokit - Stillen Fr/Rr swaybars - ceramic intake - DEI Keyless entry alarm - Niche 17" Shoks

Waiting to be installed: HKS EVC IV, 450 Turbo injectors, GSX Front brakes (need rotors)

I have a Howell engine with Total Seal rings. ( I AM IN NO WAY implying that Howell is at fault ).....but, I do seem to lose oil somehow. I am talking about 2 qts every oil change as a guess. I have to keep up on it regularly.

I did have leaks ( externally visible ) but have since fixed all of those, and still seem to lose oil. I am not burning it as far as I can tell because I have no telltale blue smoke out the exhaust. My car does not smoke AT ALL. It's a mystery to me.

I do remember reputable source saying who ,will remain unmentioned, saying that the Total Seals are not good for a daily driven car, cause they tend to have oil loss issues.

Whatever the cause is... is a mystery to me, but I know that I have Total Seals and I do have oil consumption/loss.

Take it as you will.

Guys, I just got done ripping everything out because of the rings. I was loosing like a qt every 500 miles. Do yourself a HUGE favor and spend the extra 80 bucks and get some JE's.

Originally posted by DJ420a
Guys, I just got done ripping everything out because of the rings. I was loosing like a qt every 500 miles. Do yourself a HUGE favor and spend the extra 80 bucks and get some JE's.

Ok for both of you guys above...were you using a stock rebuild head or just the head that was on the motor befroe you installed a rebuilt bottom end.

The tops of the pistons.....where was the back carbon at (center only where edges were clean or just black all over)

Terry



96 Eagle talon ESI
Greddy header - Greddy exhaust

97 Eclipse
Star Stage II - Boost/oil/EGT gauges - 3" custom DP/Apexi N1 3" exhaust - SFMU/return line - Apexi SAFC - Stage 2 6 puck Sprung hub MIBA clutch - Shortened shifter - Koni Yellows w/eibach prokit - Stillen Fr/Rr swaybars - ceramic intake - DEI Keyless entry alarm - Niche 17" Shoks

Waiting to be installed: HKS EVC IV, 450 Turbo injectors, GSX Front brakes (need rotors)

My head recieved anything that needed to be replaced ( valve guide seals etc.) Carbon deposits were evenly distributed over the entire top of the pistons ( stockers ).

The head recieved Howells "top-end" kit and all work was performed by Howell.

Again I am in no way saying that its Howell's fault. I heard that the Total Seal "consume" oil.

So the overall consensus is that Total Seal rings do work, but not nearly as consistantly as a regular ring. Some people do okay with them, while others do not. I think I'll be choosing another brand. Thanks for your input guys.


1996 Eclipse RS / 5-Speed / Aerogear Body / Coated in Magnetic Red Metallic rev.2 / T3 Turbo Intercooled @ 8 psi / http://www.team2nr.com
Mark Galyan - Indianapolis, Indiana

I put my new rings in about 2 months ago, and I havent lost anything noticeable. I would just to be safe.

Originally posted by Eclipse2NR
So the overall consensus is that Total Seal rings do work, but not nearly as consistantly as a regular ring. Some people do okay with them, while others do not. I think I'll be choosing another brand. Thanks for your input guys. 1996 Eclipse RS / 5-Speed / Aerogear Body / Coated in Magnetic Red Metallic rev.2 / T3 Turbo Intercooled @ 8 psi / http://www.team2nr.com Mark Galyan - Indianapolis, Indiana

Well, I have had my Total Seal's for a while; I don’t loose much oil at all. I think if installed properly, and broken in properly they are an EXTREAMLY effective ring. I love these rings. IMO


---------------------------------------

"Oh yea, well...My manifold does cool twisty things"

www.EnhancedMotorSports.com

If your piston is completly black your oil problem may be sucking oil through the valve guides. Sounds like crap but here is a rule when dealing with a Harley motor (motors are designed on same principle) If the outer edge of piston is clean yet center is oil burnt then you are sucking oul past the rings. It the entire piston is carboned/oil up then you are getting oil from the HG or head. Now the concept of the total seal is to creat a higher vacuum during the intake and higher seal when compressing. If the bottom end is new and the Head was not fully rebuild many people believe youi will begine to break the weak link which is to suck oil past the valve guides.....same philosophy goes for new head old bottom. Not saying this is the case just food for thought.

Why would this not happen with conventional rings........in a perfect world the total seal rings are less tolerant to leakage than the conventional.

As for the Harley piston surface idea.....that is widely used among many harley v-twin builders so i am not sure i would write it off as BS completely.

This is a lot of Info that there isnt really a way to prove or argue in such a short time, just a concept to throw around. I cant say i can document names that have had success with total seal rings since i dont log my findings like a sociologist.


Terry

Seems like a hit and miss to me. Not good enough.


1996 Eclipse RS / 5-Speed / Aerogear Body / Coated in Magnetic Red Metallic rev.2 / T3 Turbo Intercooled @ 8 psi / http://www.team2nr.com
Mark Galyan - Indianapolis, Indiana

yup there ya go....stick with conventional...they have worked for so many years, why stop now.

Terry

96 Eagle Talon ESI....Daily driver

97 Eclipse.........

Have any of you with the total seals taken your pcv system out and still had problems?

Originally posted by WIDECLIPSE
Have any of you with the total seals taken your pcv system out and still had problems?

Yes on a side note, I did read on Howell's site that you have to disable the PCV system in order to keep from getting oil consumption. I am very curious if this is the problem you guys are having.

1996 Eclipse RS / 5-Speed / Aerogear Body / Coated in Magnetic Red Metallic rev.2 / T3 Turbo Intercooled @ 8 psi / http://www.team2nr.com
Mark Galyan - Indianapolis, Indiana

I think that he was saying that they had better work well, or else he would be pissed.

Shit, you're quicker to jump down somebody's throat than am I!

Yes, I tried everything for a whole year, trying to make myself beleive it wasnt the rings. I first took a 1" brass rod and put a hole in it smaller than 1/16, didnt work. After tryin I swear 100 diff things, I just disconnected it, still nothing. Finally I said fuck it and changed the rings, and what do you know, no more smoke. I dont know man, all I can is, choose wisely.

Good luck

hey I don't want to hijack this thread, but I also don't want to create a whole other TSPR thread.

I was trying to assemble the TS piston rings on the pistons. You put one ring up top, then in the middle you have the interlocking rings (small slides into the larger ring to create gapless effect), and then the traditional bottom rings.

However, with the middle ring setup w/ the interlocking rings, I noticed that I have 4 more of those interlocking 'rails' (smaller,skinner ring) and I am not sure if I am assembling them correctly. Do I put those 4 left over rails somewhere else? or are they just extras?

I have these rings installed in my Howell bottom end kit, I've never had a problem with them. However, if I built the engine, I would have probably used JE rings.

my fully rebuilt block with je rings goes through about 1/2 a quart of oil eery 3000 miles. a very small amount ends up in the catch can.

2 quarts every change is a lot :o i was going through that when my valve guides were not machined correctly :\

I get quite a bit of blow by with my total seal rings... maybe its a normal amount though... with the dipstick out and the motor running you can feel there air puffing out of it.

I'm just not sure about these rings...


1996 Eclipse RS / 5-Speed / Aerogear Body / Coated in Magnetic Red Metallic rev.2 / T3 Turbo Intercooled @ 8 psi / http://www.team2nr.com
Mark Galyan - Indianapolis, Indiana

That's about as much oil as I go through... For me it usually varies with the season - in the summer I see about a half quart drop when I do an oil change, but in the winter I see it down a quart. Maybe I should run thinner oil in the winter like everyone else, who knows.

Anyone know if Howell will substitute JE rings instead of Total Seals in their bottom end kits? I would really prefer a standard ring.


1996 Eclipse RS / 5-Speed / Aerogear Body / Coated in Magnetic Red Metallic rev.2 / T3 Turbo Intercooled @ 8 psi / http://www.team2nr.com
Mark Galyan - Indianapolis, Indiana

dont know, and dont care at this point. I got the rings, and I am going to try to follow the instructions as best as possible to get it exactly how they want it...if it doesnt work, well i'll just go down with the ship and pull them out.

who knows, they may be the best thing since sliced bread for me.

I have the Je rings and they are PERFECT.
We filed them to perfection and they work great.

Personally, there is just too much controversy surrounding the Total Seal rings. I threw away the Total Seals that came with my bottom end kit and used Hastings. They went in perfectly and sealed up well. My compression was around 195 psi after only 150 miles (8.8:1 compression ratio). I don't eat any oil and don't have any blow-by. Any engine I build in the future will have standard rings also. I don't believe that the advertised benefits of the TS rings outweigh the possibility of poor performance. I'll take the safe bet.

Corbin

'95 ESI-T
Now with more power and fewer leaks



Gimme fuel...Gimme fire...Gimme that which I desire

Agreed. I'm going to try and get ahold of JE rings. Thanks for all your comments.


1996 Eclipse RS / 5-Speed / Aerogear Body / Coated in Magnetic Red Metallic rev.2 / T3 Turbo Intercooled @ 8 psi / http://www.team2nr.com
Mark Galyan - Indianapolis, Indiana

When using Total Seal Rings be sure to disable the PVC system. The Total Seal Rings reduce blow so much, that the PVC system can begin to scavenge oil from the crankcase and cause oil consumption. Disable your PVC system.


^^from Howell

Now the question is, what is the PVC system and how do I disable it?

^Do you think that Howell means "PCV"? instead of "PVC"?

Yea they mean pcv. I'm not sure how to disable it though, other than taking out the valve and putting a small breather on it.

I have the problem with my JE rings.

They seal up the thing so much, that on decell's, especially when going downhill I pull like -28 in/hg of vacum, and that can pull oil through the PCV valve... Our stock PCV system sucks. I'm going to take the thing out.

Or just plum it into the turbo inlet instead.

Originally posted by MrSlick
I have the problem with my JE rings. They seal up the thing so much, that on decell's, especially when going downhill I pull like -28 in/hg of vacum, and that can pull oil through the PCV valve... Our stock PCV system sucks. I'm going to take the thing out. Or just plum it into the turbo inlet instead.

Do you just remove the valve and have a continuous vac line? Or do you plug both ends with rubber cap(both on the valve cover and on the intake mani?)

Cap the manifold port. Put a breather filter on your valve cover.


1996 Eclipse RS / 5-Speed / Aerogear Body / Coated in Magnetic Red Metallic rev.2 / T3 Turbo Intercooled @ 8 psi / http://www.team2nr.com
Mark Galyan - Indianapolis, Indiana

Originally posted by Eclipse2NR
Cap the manifold port. Put a breather filter on your valve cover. 1996 Eclipse RS / 5-Speed / Aerogear Body / Coated in Magnetic Red Metallic rev.2 / T3 Turbo Intercooled @ 8 psi / http://www.team2nr.com Mark Galyan - Indianapolis, Indiana

Exactly.

ok sounds good. I will definately do this time come for install.

We should probably take a poll to see who had these rings installed, and didn't remove the PCV valve and whether or not they had oil consumption. It's just something to think about those negative reviews of the rings...

i removed it...and i love my TS rings...these people are trippen
---------------------------------------

"Oh yea, well...My manifold does cool twisty things"

www.EnhancedMotorSports.com

Corbin: Did you order the hasting rings from Howell?


1996 Eclipse RS / 5-Speed / Aerogear Body / Coated in Magnetic Red Metallic rev.2 / T3 Turbo Intercooled @ 8 psi / http://www.team2nr.com
Mark Galyan - Indianapolis, Indiana

I do know people who have had problems with total seal rings... but none of them were on 420A's.

And personally I don't see ANY reason not to use regular style rings... I've never had any problems with standard rings.

A good friend of mine who builds race engines... 700 and 800 HP race engines doesn't like the total seals either. He's known people who had problems on high HP motors. He machines normal rings to perfection... the guy is a ring filing wizard. If you take your time ad do the math when setting the end gaps... you'll be perfect with the JE rings.

I also used Hastings rings before on a 420A with good success.

Originally posted by Eclipse2NR
Corbin: Did you order the hasting rings from Howell?

I did buy them from Howell. I am very happy with them.

Corbin

'95 ESI-T
Now with more power and fewer leaks



Gimme fuel...Gimme fire...Gimme that which I desire

So what do you have to do to the rings to make them seal properly... filing? How do you do that? Is it typically reserved for the machine shop?

By the way, just got off the phone with Howell automotive. I asked if I could substitute another brand of rings with the bottom end kit. They can substitute JE rings, as well as Hastings. JE Rings would cost the same price, whereas Hastings would cost about 20 dollars less. Just thought I'd let you guys know about this option.


1996 Eclipse RS / 5-Speed / Aerogear Body / Coated in Magnetic Red Metallic rev.2 / T3 Turbo Intercooled @ 8 psi / http://www.team2nr.com
Mark Galyan - Indianapolis, Indiana

Originally posted by Eclipse2NR
So what do you have to do to the rings to make them seal properly... filing? How do you do that? Is it typically reserved for the machine shop?

You will want to file the rings to the exact measurements that Howell can give you. You need something to file with and a feeler gauge. I used a dremel in a vice with a stone disk to do my filing. I deburred the edges with jewlers files (very fine). Feeler gauge was like $5. You could pay a machine shop to do it, but I wouldn't trust them to get it exactly right. I spent hours filing them to be dead on.

Corbin

'95 ESI-T
Now with more power and fewer leaks



Gimme fuel...Gimme fire...Gimme that which I desire

I would go with the JE rings. There is nothing wrong with the Hastings, but my personal preference is JE.

Also, check Summit for ring filers. They have some really nice ones.

I've had my JE rings for over a year and they work great. The only problem is the oil coming out of the breather every once in a while. I just got a catchcan with a breather on the top to solve it though..

Actually, the blowby probably has more to do with the 20G than then the rings. ;)