okay.. as some have stated and helped me to understand more of, i guess the outside air(=IAT) does play a fairly big factor in tuning with the 034. i didnt think it would make THAT much of a differance, but it does.

did 4 runs today:
2 low boost = 10psi
2 high boost = 16psi

findings:

comparing runs i made on a 90+ degree night, to having made runs today with temps only in the 70s, i went from an average of 11.5-10:1 range on the hot night in low boost(even got down into the 9's A/F after many runs) to slightly lean in the 12's in low boost and an average of low 11's to high 10's in high boost....

anyone else logged a wideband with temp changes and got similar findings?

have i just realized somthing that is very common knowledge but i managed to miss somehow along the way...?

Originally posted by tim97rs
okay.. as some have stated and helped me to understand more of, i guess the outside air(=IAT) does play a fairly big factor in tuning with the 034. i didnt think it would make THAT much of a differance, but it does. did 4 runs today: 2 low boost = 10psi 2 high boost = 16psi findings: comparing runs i made on a 90+ degree night, to having made runs today with temps only in the 70s, i went from an average of 11.5-10:1 range on the hot night in low boost(even got down into the 9's A/F after many runs) to slightly lean in the 12's in low boost and an average of low 11's to high 10's in high boost.... anyone else logged a wideband with temp changes and got similar findings? have i just realized somthing that is very common knowledge but i managed to miss somehow along the way...?

It's one of the main complaints I have for extra injector systems that don't use an intake air temp sensor...

And yes it can make quite a difference...

At 70 degrees at sea level, the air density is about 0.0745 lb/ft3
At 90 degrees at sea level the density is 0.0718 lb/ft3

That's about a 4 % change... quite significant if you ask me...

Hmm now what about a nice cool 40 degree night...
At 40 degrees at sea level the density would be about 0.079lb/ft3 ... ;)

word to air density.

Tim, are those numbers what the IAT sensor sees? If not what does the IAT sensor see during those WOT runs? Where there may be a difference of 20* in ambient temp, we can't assume the air that you draw in will be the same temp due to engine heat and other factors. To be able to draw any conclusions from it we NEED the IAT sensor readings at WOT in both conditions.

Originally posted by Avenger
Tim, are those numbers what the IAT sensor sees? If not what does the IAT sensor see during those WOT runs? Where there may be a difference of 20* in ambient temp, we can't assume the air that you draw in will be the same temp due to engine heat and other factors. To be able to draw any conclusions from it we NEED the IAT sensor readings at WOT in both conditions.

This is true... but... given the same efficiency of the turbo, intercooler and engine with an ambient air temp difference of 20 degrees the intake air temp in the manifold should have about the same 20 degree difference...

It's all relative to ambient air temp.

But yes, let's get some IAT numbers.

Yeah, that's about right. Actually, I've calibrated my IAT maps on the DFI for having my IAT sensor before the turbo (tapped at the inlet). No problems at all. This is also how Armond had his set up.

This is all truth. One of the intrinsic variables in speed-density is the temperature of the air. After all, how else are you to tell how dense the air is that is filling the specific metered volume (intake mani)? That is another reason why I think that something like a megasquirt or a DFI is a much better idea, in spite of their inherent complicity.

Cooler denser moist air makes higher boost, we call it turbo weather.

Ya'll seem to love half baked cockeyed theories so there's mine for you :-)

-Mike W.

Yeah, I've been dealing with it since day 1. Michigan weather is crazy so I can see the change from day to day. I would usually tune it on a cold night and let it run right when it got hot out. Come winter time I would have to adjust the scaler up a bit.

I've been running this for 2+ years and I've never had to retune for the seasons. Perhaps its my geographic location (VA) and low boost (6 psi). Now that I'll finally be running double digit boost, it may become an issue. I'll play with getting the 034 to adjust per temperature.

Corbin

'95 ESI-T
Now with more power and fewer leaks



Gimme fuel...Gimme fire...Gimme that which I desire

Originally posted by Corbin
I've been running this for 2+ years and I've never had to retune for the seasons. Perhaps its my geographic location (VA) and low boost (6 psi). Now that I'll finally be running double digit boost, it may become an issue. I'll play with getting the 034 to adjust per temperature.

Javad said he could modify a unit to work with an intake air temp sensor. I really wish he would edit the software to have peak-hold functions on the readout to aid in tuning.

Originally posted by etx

Originally posted by Corbin I've been running this for 2+ years and I've never had to retune for the seasons. Perhaps its my geographic location (VA) and low boost (6 psi). Now that I'll finally be running double digit boost, it may become an issue. I'll play with getting the 034 to adjust per temperature.

Javad said he could modify a unit to work with an intake air temp sensor. I really wish he would edit the software to have peak-hold functions on the readout to aid in tuning.

Can't you datalog with the 034?

sadly, no.

Originally posted by tim97rs
sadly, no.

Pile of poop... :)

at this stage i should just go with a full stand-alone: i have OBD-2 datalogger for stock logging, 034EFI for extra fuel control, and innovate LM-1 wideband for A/F, RPM and boost monitoring...

sheesh!

Originally posted by MrSlick

Originally posted by tim97rs sadly, no.

Pile of poop... :)

Hush, Damn Megaquirter. :7 Once you figure out the spark I'll probably build one. I would love to run just a MS and remove the stock ecu.

Originally posted by etx

Originally posted by MrSlick

Originally posted by tim97rs sadly, no.

Pile of poop... :)

Hush, Damn Megaquirter. :7 Once you figure out the spark I'll probably build one. I would love to run just a MS and remove the stock ecu.

Sssshhhh... ummm, there's no spark, what you talking about? ;)

I think I should get a new licence plate... what about MS-I or 2GNT-MS1

:)

Originally posted by MrSlick

Originally posted by etx

Originally posted by MrSlick

Originally posted by tim97rs sadly, no.

Pile of poop... :)

Hush, Damn Megaquirter. :7 Once you figure out the spark I'll probably build one. I would love to run just a MS and remove the stock ecu.

Sssshhhh... ummm, there's no spark, what you talking about? ;) I think I should get a new licence plate... what about MS-I or 2GNT-MS1 :)

You could get IH8EICS heh

Originally posted by etx

Originally posted by MrSlick

Originally posted by etx

Originally posted by MrSlick

Originally posted by tim97rs sadly, no.

Pile of poop... :)

Hush, Damn Megaquirter. :7 Once you figure out the spark I'll probably build one. I would love to run just a MS and remove the stock ecu.

Sssshhhh... ummm, there's no spark, what you talking about? ;) I think I should get a new licence plate... what about MS-I or 2GNT-MS1 :)

You could get IH8EICS heh

Nice...

What Javad is saying now is that a new EIC version is due out early 05. It will have corrections for intake temps, coolant temps, etc. It will have a better processor and cost about the same as before. Rather than hack up my current unit, I'll probably build a MS and use it like an EIC. I'm avoiding stand-alone territory because I have to pass emmisions and my AT still needs to talk to the stock ECU. The current 034 EIC is obviously sufficient, but I need another project to keep me busy.

Corbin

'95 ESI-T
Now with more power and fewer leaks



Gimme fuel...Gimme fire...Gimme that which I desire

Well, if you let the MS run the powertrain, there is no reason why a stock ECU could not think it was in charge.

RPM? Yup... got that signal. Injectors? The ECU won't notice if it is firing stock injectors or resistors.

O2 sensor reading? If the MS is tuned properly, it won't notice that it is not in charge. Especially since MS does open loop and closed loop. I doubt that the PCM would realize that it wasn't controlling the A/F.

The coil pack could be emmulated with a resistor, and all of the emissions control devices would work properly.

Hell, you could run with no EGR, without tripping the insufficient flow CEL. Run a resistor as people do now to avoid the EGR function failure MIL. The idle would be controlled by the MS, so when it closes off the IAC a bit to test for EGR flow, the idle will not drop. Just need to convince the ECU that there is an IAC there, maybe even by plugging an IAC in there. Just a thought...

If you wanted to be a real pussy, though, you could even run the EGR. The stock ECU can stay plugged in.

I don't think that all is lost in the world of emissions or automatic transmissions when a standalone is used. The only funcionality that I could see losing would be an increase in revlimit. I bet that the TCU would be unhappy with 8000+ RPMs.

You're like that little devil on my shoulder..."go ahead, take it apart...you'll get it back together by monday morning". I'll puss out for now and weigh that option later.

Corbin

'95 ESI-T
Now with more power and fewer leaks



Gimme fuel...Gimme fire...Gimme that which I desire

Originally posted by Ducking_Fumbass
Well, if you let the MS run the powertrain, there is no reason why a stock ECU could not think it was in charge. RPM? Yup... got that signal. Injectors? The ECU won't notice if it is firing stock injectors or resistors. O2 sensor reading? If the MS is tuned properly, it won't notice that it is not in charge. Especially since MS does open loop and closed loop. I doubt that the PCM would realize that it wasn't controlling the A/F. The coil pack could be emmulated with a resistor, and all of the emissions control devices would work properly. Hell, you could run with no EGR, without tripping the insufficient flow CEL. Run a resistor as people do now to avoid the EGR function failure MIL. The idle would be controlled by the MS, so when it closes off the IAC a bit to test for EGR flow, the idle will not drop. Just need to convince the ECU that there is an IAC there, maybe even by plugging an IAC in there. Just a thought... If you wanted to be a real pussy, though, you could even run the EGR. The stock ECU can stay plugged in. I don't think that all is lost in the world of emissions or automatic transmissions when a standalone is used. The only funcionality that I could see losing would be an increase in revlimit. I bet that the TCU would be unhappy with 8000+ RPMs.

The only part of your logic that is flawed buddy is that of the EGR flow... The PCM does not calculate if the EGR is working by looking for the idle to drop, it actually looks at the O2 signal, if the EGR vavle is opened and working the o2 signal shows this by going lean... if the PCM sees no change in the o2 then is says you have insufficient flow... ;)

Oh and I have the PCM controlling the IAC still... ;)

Are you sure on that? I read in the FSM that it watches the RPM vs. throttle position to check for flow. Supposedly, the ECU lowers the idle with the IAC and raises it back up with the EGR at the same time. If the idle drops, then the ERG is flowing insufficiently.

Is it possible that this is different for different years? Regardless, Corbin, you have a 1995, and a much more forgiving PCM, emissions-wise.

Originally posted by Ducking_Fumbass
Are you sure on that? I read in the FSM that it watches the RPM vs. throttle position to check for flow. Supposedly, the ECU lowers the idle with the IAC and raises it back up with the EGR at the same time. If the idle drops, then the ERG is flowing insufficiently. Is it possible that this is different for different years? Regardless, Corbin, you have a 1995, and a much more forgiving PCM, emissions-wise.

So by now you know that you were wrong right bro? ;)

Not entirely sure that I am entirely wrong.

You even said it!

Duron1100: I think it may use both methods to check to be honset...
Duron1100: lol

Learn how to spell, you wanker... ;)

Originally posted by Ducking_Fumbass
Not entirely sure that I am entirely wrong. You even said it! Duron1100: I think it may use both methods to check to be honset... Duron1100: lol Learn how to spell, you wanker... ;)

Wait... an American (Yank) telling an English guy how to spell... how ironic! :wavy

Yeah, next we will be telling you guys how to fight wars. :nuts