Greetings everyone,

please help
I am trying to decide if its easier/ more less expensive to buy a stock mitsubishi turbo motor in apposed to a bolt on kit for my 99 rs. I was told I would need to reweld the motor mounts in order to fit a factory turbo engine in the rs body. any info or links would be greeat!!!


ERSL

Well don't forget you will need the tranny, ecu, and axles to make this all work - I am sure that it will probably much more expensive, and definitely much more complicated.

I'm trying to find an answer to this, too. Check this thread for a little extra info, and as I figure it out, I'll post more.

http://www.2gnt.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=1724&forum=DCForumID13


Clint

I'd go with a bolt on turbo for your existing motor. For about 3,000 you can get a good kit with and intercooler. The install isn't very difficult, just long. Talk to mike at dss mike@diamondstarspecialties.com he'll give ya a good deal on the star turbo systems, just tell him robby sent ya.

nothing against star because i think they have a great turbo kit but i personnaly like hrc's kit. check out http://www.hrchahnracecraft.com

and tell me if you still wanna get teh star. i mean they have proven results and tech support....hahahah i am a dumbass and am sure i will need this when i go turbo. also talk to a few that have them and see if they like it or not?

Talon
97'Talon Esi
AEM cam gears
Injen short ram intake
Rear-upper strut bar

would have more mods but just a poor kid! LOL

"A choice" ???
not really, swapping engines is not a choice, its a foolish project. it would cost you at least $4500 to complete it and youd be stuck with a car that is slower than a stage one bolt on kit. so you would need to dump in another 1000-2000 to the GST motor.

WIDE AWAKE
http://www.geocities.com/blue2gnt

i would wait until the NER kit comes out, then make the dicision..

Here is the facts....A GS-T motor (4g63) would be a waste of money and time to put into a GS or RS. If you really want one sell your car and buy a GS-T. First of all the install would be very expensive and complicated. And you will have to upgrade the turbo anyway to get anywhere near the performance you can get out of a stage 2 or 3 turbo kit. And the tranny's on the 4g63's have been known to break very often when the hp level is raised from the stock 210. And of course yuo have to factor in the infamous "all your cranks are belong to us" (crank walk) for those who don't get the joke. The way I see it is you can spend 6,000 (just a rough estimate) buying the 4g63 engine
plus install. Or you can spend 2500-3000 and get a stage two and make your car faster than a GS-T and have lower insurance rates. Just my .02 on the subject.


DAVE_FL
97 T-GS
HRC stageI
Stage 2 very soon!!!!!!

LAST EDITED ON 03-Jul-01 AT 06:51 AM (PST)

Where are you getting these numbers? 6000?!?!? What the f*ck? What I see is a little different I guess. The cyclone motor for 2000. I'm sure you could get a tranny out of a GST for 500-1000 with axles. ECU is the only factor I can see as being an issue. I might say as much as 4000-4500 on the high side. It would be a "project" though. Noone with a sense of adventure? Noone like to build something? I also see a motor that can take a bit more power before having to build internals. Not to mention the fact that if you went that route, you could sell your 420a and tranny/axles for 1000+. It seems noone has attempted it, so not too many people have grounds for pulling these numbers out of their ass. Lighten up people.

Anyone know anything about that Cyclone motor? Is there an issue with crankwalk with them? I did read an interesting article about crankwalk that I'll need to dig out. They said something about oil squirters clogging up or check valves sticking were causing the crankwalk most likely. They were converting 2g blocks to have squirters like 1g blocks.

You are saying that the 4G-63 T engine handles more power than the 420a? I hope you are ready for a debate. Both engines can't make over 400HP without building the block so I think why start with something older when you have the newer 420a. Do you know what kinds of mods you need to make HP in the 600HP range because BOTH engine need the same amount of work when you start entering that arena. So why pull a good motor (420a) and spend 3000 on a good reputable engine(4G-63T) when that 3000 can go into your original. In the search for serious power using the 420a is the only choice. There are other issues like getting the ECU for the factory turbo motor and changing the mounts labor and Crankwalk. All that can add up to another 2000-3000 dollars.

On top of that a GST has to be pushing about 270HP just to keep up with a stage 1 420a. Maybe you don't believe me, but I owned a 1G and could bairly keep up and I don't have to begin talking about all the stage 1's that are just moppin' the ground with 4g's. The 420a powertrain/drivetrain uses shorter gears and can spool a turbo quicker. Ask some of the 4G-63T owners who actually complain about lag on a 16G then talk to Chris M.(one of many obligatory names). Or a T3/T4 which can hit max boost in under 3300rpms(and that isn't the BB either). Anyway I'm not saying the 4G-63T engine is no good - it is! Just that is serves a different purpose for a lot of people and that pulling your 420a for some real power is taking the wrong road. Currently HRC's 420a is making ~500HP off of boost and their other 420a is lighting the tracks with 600HP.

Skrilla
'97 Base Talon NA
"Technology: The Only Replacement for Displacement"
"Peace and Turbo Grease"

Okay, now that your panties are in a twist...

Maybe I didn't explain myself fully. I agree with you mostly. I drove a 95 stock GST, and while it was kinda fun around town, it sure wasn't fast. My view on the 4g63 is it's designed for boost. It'll damn sure take more than ours w/o piston/rod changes. 400hp on a 420a w/o building bottom end? Please try it and let me know how it goes. I'm pretty sure a 4g63 will take it though. Maybe it's not as cost effective to go for the 200-300hp range, but let's say you are looking for 300-350. Maybe you've found a 4g63 w/ tranny and axles for a fair price, something like $2000. It might be a cost effective swap, especially when you can turn around and sell your 420a. My initial interest in this subject was due to the fact that noone knows what it takes or what it costs for sure to swap motors. Everyone just starts freaking out and saying how bad an idea it is. You don't need to defend the 420a to me. I drive one everyday. It's a good motor. Just seems that under certain circumstances, a 4g63 swap could be a viable solution. I for one, am definitely going Hahn stage 2 even though an engine swap doesn't seem out of bounds. I have the equipment needed available to me. I'll go Hahn stage 2, and I probably won't go any further due to the implications of building the bottom end. That's way too damn expensive and leaves you w/o wheels for too long. If I want to go fast, I'll get another bike. It's low-10's out of the box. That's just my view.

LAST EDITED ON 03-Jul-01 AT 12:15 PM (PST)

LAST EDITED ON 03-Jul-01 AT 12:14 PM (PST)

I was just giving a rough estimate on having it done. Not doing it your self. Most people wouldnt be able to do that kind of job themselves!!! And your lucky I don't take that pulling numbers out my ass coment seriously!!!! I was going to put it a different way but I figure it would be a waste of time and space name calling.


DAVE_FL
97 T-GS
HRC stageI
Stage 2 very soon
PHOTOPOINT SUCKS!!!!!!

If you want a GS-T...sell your car and get a GS-T. Think about it this way. You sell your car ( RS ) and spend like $3000 more for a 99' GS-T. You would not only be getting the 4G63 engine, but power everything, a sun roof, side skirts, 16' rims, fog lights, a high rear spoiler, better sound system, sport suspention, and white face gauges ( I'm not sure but I don't think they came on the RS?? ).

But that's if you want a GS-T. If you want to keep your car cause you already spent bones on it, and you don't wanna get rid of it...then I think you should get a Stage 2 turbo kit and not boost above 8psi. Cause at 4psi, you will be faster then a stock GS-T and at 8psi, you will KICK ASS!!!! just my 2 cents.



Ball Bearing Star Stage II
"Power is nothing without control"

Wanna run more boost on a 420 drop the compression.....so it can sustain more hp... why would you want to drop in a 4g in place of a 420....just buy a turbo kit.....and be free from crankwalk..........I mean what would you gain from a 4g over a 420a? uhhhhhhhh nothing right? Cause once you put how many grand into the swap ya gotta swap out the t25....seems like a big waste of time .0000000000002 cents

I apologize for being terse. I've had a bad day, and it just pisses me off when uneducated people start throwing huge numbers around. By uneductated, I mean not having researched this specific engine swap. The way I see it, don't talk like you know unless you know. I brought this up, because no one knows. That much is obvious. I don't know either. I am pretty sure that I could do the swap if I wanted for around $4000-4500 with everything. Just an estimate adding up the parts, not including labor as I would do it myself. Labor cost could easily make the swap unfathomable. Swapping engines isn't difficult though. Many of the guys on here have had their own motors out w/o too many problems. It's an awfully easy motor to get out compared to what I'm dealing with. Little 4-banger is a lot easier than a V-8 in a lot of respects, but a lot more wiring. The only thing that scares me on the swap is the wiring and ecu. Yuck.

I have to say, I bought a GS over a GS-T/X with the thought of turbo'ing it with a Hahn kit. If I wanted a GS-T, I would have bought one. 4g63 cars do have one huge advantage over us... a multitude of available parts at a lower price than what we pay. There's also a much larger knowledge base to tap into as there are many more 4g63 owners out there than turbo'd 420a owners. We can learn from them, and they can learn from us.

Forget I even mentioned the swap. Will never happen again.

hey skrilla what do you mean 400 on stock internals?!?!!? i thought we could only hold up to 300 hp.

Chris Dishmon

"Fillet Mignon?!?!?! How about a big slab of tube steak for the pretty lady."

chrisdishmon@hotmail.com
http://klipzracer.homestead.com/index.html

Just to let you know...my friend got quoted $2,500 for the swap...but he has to buy a GS-T intake manifold, ECU, and something else, I forgot to complete the motor. And that's Installed!!!! So, Why spend over $3,000 on a swap when you could either tade in your car and get a GS-T, or turbo your 420A for that price. You will be faster then a GS-T if you turbo your 420A...and you could still be under factory warrentee if you trade it in. Just another 2 cents.



Ball Bearing Star Stage II
"Power is nothing without control"

Wow
first I want to thank all of you for such informative response.. I have decided to go with a bolt on kit with a front mount intercooler and then go from there with other modifications to the engine. My next thing is who to buy, its between Hahn and Star at this point.

I have plenty of time while I save up my cash, to make a decision.. So far Star is in the lead, but Hahn intices me with their reputation... hmm well I'll keep you all informed on my status..

EL

Comming from a GS-T guy get the bolt on kit. If you want the turbo engine then just trade cars. It will save in the aggervation of doing the swap and then wondering why something isn't working correctly afterwards. Anyone who has done work to there cars knows nothing ever comes out perfectly, well everyone once and a while things go smoothly. Imagine the checklist of things you would have to double check on if you did this swap and had problems. That's my .02 anyways. Good Luck



Derek
DeezGst on aol's IM
http://www.fastasknutz.com

It's too bad a lot of you live in places that would charge you one of your nuts to do a motor swap. Because of speed shop competition and high resources around here in So Cal, the average amount spent would be 3k for a motor swap. This is pertaining to the 4G63 from a 420A swap. With the Honda swaps.. those guys spend 1200.00 for swaps because most of their motor mounts are compatible and a lot of the parts themselves are interchangable. I just might do the motor swap in the future.. I don't want to buy another Eclipse because mines has been paid off since last year. I don't have car payments. I can adapt my star kit to the 4G63 engine with a custom manifold and intercooler piping. A 4G63 with a t3/t4 and Apex fmic with all the fuel goodies will kick focking arse!!! It's still early though.. I'm messing around with the "show" aspect.

www.935draggers.com

LAST EDITED ON 06-Jul-01 AT 07:22 PM (PST)

Don't give up, man, I think you bring some good points to the table and discussion that isn't based in emotions or name-calling seems productive to me. It's not that I totally agree with you, it's just that I want to encourage you to argue your point, if you like. I think some people had a knee-jerk "you're wrong and stupid" response, just because so many other obviously "uneducated" people have asked that same question, and many vets here have had to give out our "company answer."

I think after Raizin has now brought to the table a potentially viable alternative in his contemporary motor-swapping world , we can now entertain this discussion with more of an open mind (and possibly not limit anything to the 4g63).

My take on your motor-swapping idea is this: If you can do the swap at a really low cost and QUALITY job, it might be worth entertaining. However, do it by excluding all of the shortcomings the stock 4g63 has.

(Note: After driving my brother's 97 GS-T, I can easily now understand why the clutches/ trannies always fail/break, the clutch feel is garbage. Even on a seemingly crankwalk-free 4g63, both 4g63's I've driven feel somewhat spongy although they grab farily well. Drive one guys, there just seems to be less transmission "control." I know in our own 420a's there is a great disparity in the quality of our trannies/clutches -and probably why many 4g owners think our cars "stink"- , we should all be glad we weren't outfitted with whatever they have.)

Back to excluding the GS-T "shit parts", get either the Cyclone engine or a 1g engine, and use a good turbo, aftermarket clutch, and pray you find a tranny that's reliable.

The one REAL advantage to me though, and the only worthwhile reason for entertaining this whole motor swap notion, IS the 4g63 ecu (besides the internals "potentially" supporting more HP). With that ECu, you can both read boost and spport injectors that are MUCH bigger than can we (w/o big-time ecu help...not a small-scale S-AFC). You can now use injectors as large as 720's or so, and as we all know, fuel is the key to power.

Besides those two advantanges(ecu and stock HP advantage), I can't really see why one would be so inclined to go by way of a motor swap. There's just so much more labor involved, and I don't think you'd be pleased with the end result.


Jason
98' Eagle Talon ESi-T
Mitsu Super 16g Turbo(HRC)/Custom FMIC


http://springfielddsm.homestead.com/JasonsPics.html

You make some really good points here. The GST I drove had a horrendous transmission. It was positive, but it felt terrible. My tranny feels better, but I am having trouble with it. I'm guessing I've got synchros going out. Speedshifting from 1st to 2nd is a 50/50 adventure. If I start to speedshift at like 5000-5200, it'll take, but if I go any higher, I'll get neutral. The ecu/fuel issue seems pretty serious for you guys that are going crazy on horsepower. it appears the Accel DFI solution repairs this shortcoming? Like I said before, I will be going the Hahn route, but I'm only planning on Stage 2 due to the involved nature of going any higher.

Clint

LAST EDITED ON 06-Jul-01 AT 10:40 PM (PST)

First off I am comparing a GS/RS to a GST (not a GSX, as a RS ->
GSX conversion would be just plain crazy)

Yes the 4G63 is indeed a good engine. No disputes here. I will
even let a GST/GSX owner get away with saying it is "better" than
the 420A (what ignorance...)

But you are all forgetting something.. guessed what???

CRAPPY TRANSMISSIONS!!!! Mitsu DSM transmissions are simply
terrible - All DSMers will admit to this.

Can you say "bad synchros"? Probably not, however most 4G63
owners can :-) Just about *every* 4G63 owner I know either has
the problem, just changed synchros, or "babies" the car to avoid
the problem. This is the famous "grinding" gears problem.

My friends with 4G63 do not dare downshift into 1st gear at any
speed above 10mph 'coz it will grind!!!!!! I slam it in 1st at
40mph and no problem!

They burn clutches like no tomorrow. My STOCK clutch in my car
held 90+ turbo Drag Strip passes and Hundreds of street races AND
it is 90K miles old (10psi boost)!!!


TAKE 2:

If you Decide to go "apeshit" on your car, like I am trying, it
is CHEAPER to start on an RS/GS...

A 2G 4G63 is not safe on stock internals over 400-450hp. They
need internals too. Wait they need bigger turbos, intercoolers,
piping, BOVs, AFCs, injectors, air filters, MAS mods/VPCs...?????

Oh and they usually cost at least $3000 more to start out with..
AND they are heavier.

Can you say "built" Stage 4/5 420A? And with our trannies? Heck YEAH!

P.S. I have force-revved my engine (accidentally) to 9500+rpm 2
or three times... A guy I know hit 8000rpm accidentally in his
4G63 and bent some valves!!!!!!

Guy
RS_Guy

"If I wanted a 4G63, I'd have bought an EVO"



http://www.GTuned.com

For the record a VPC is junk on the 4G63 engine, everyone I have known to put one on a Eclipse hates it and ends up removing it. Keep the MAF take out a few combs and just get an AFC with some bigger injectors for a 4g63.


Derek
DeezGst on aol's IM
http://www.fastasknutz.com

well since everyone has an opinion... here's mine:

i'd rather have a GST myself than my RS even though i love her to death... but 4g63 is a great engine though! no doubts about it... sure there are ish to worry about... but hey... turboing a 420A has it's headaches too :}

it's all part of the game... to each his own



Oh yea... u know i be pimpin!

"RACECAR backwards is RACECAR!"

Kory
ticklemekory@cisco.com
Happy Honda Hunting!

yes but ishes on a 420a you can fix(headgasket) and ishes on the 4g63 there is NO fix for(crankwalk). you be te judge.

Chris Dishmon

"Fillet Mignon?!?!?! How about a big slab of tube steak for the pretty lady."

chrisdishmon@hotmail.com
http://klipzracer.homestead.com/index.html

I read a pretty good article about crankwalk a few months ago. They showed that the reason crankwalk was occurring was due to oil squirter changes in the 2G block. The squirters have a check valve in them with a ball and spring. The squirters were getting stuck at different open to closed positions and causing bearing wear. The way the shop that wrote the article fixed the problem was converting the block to the 1G oil squirters, which solved the problem. I haven't been able to find the article to see if there were any updates though.

Clint