Ok, I haven't really done much to the car over the winter, so I want to get a game plan ready for Spring. My setup now is basically built bottom end, HRC 16g, SMIC, SFMU, 415cc injectors, SAFC, Nippon Denso 190lph intank fuel pump, and the HRC inline fuel pump. Currently I'm running 15psi.

My first question is.....what upgrades to fuel will I need to turn the boost up to say 20psi? Will 415cc injectors support that, or will I need to go bigger? Anyone have that formula for calculating injector size, I couldn't find it anywhere?

Next question.....is anyone running 18psi or higher without timing control? At 15psi my timing is fine, but I've never tried turning up the boost. Will an ignition with timing retard be absolutely necessary for 20psi?

Please share any other input you may have. I wanna run the car to it's full potential this summer. Thanks!!

I have 615 cc/min of fuel on each cylender. I've had the car up to 22 psi so far. I was pulling a little timing to be save with my MSD Dis2, but since that thing took a shit the stock ignition is doing a good job. Your just going to want to run a little rich after 16 psi. Honestly, I would build the 8 injector setup. I am using it and the ability to tune is great. I would not trust a rising rate FPR any further than I can throw it.

http://www.2gnt.com/www/corbin/8inj.html

Originally posted by BoostedGS
My first question is.....what upgrades to fuel will I need to turn the boost up to say 20psi?

1st you gotta look at your 16G's boost efficient range. 16G's are not really efficient passed 18psi according to many that have tried on this board. the most the 16G can handle is like 320 flywheel HP. so if you plan on going passed 18+psi i would suggest to upgrade to a 20G or a S20G. your fuel system is fine where it's at, it's good upto 300WHP but you're kinda pushing it passed 18psi. the only thing i can tell you is try to dyno your car where it's at right now, and see how the A/F graphs go. it also will show you where power drops off according to your RPM level, to see if you CAN up the boost. do a search, there's lots that have been discussed on this.

ah... good post. id like to know this info also.


New/More Mods Comming... New 1/4 Times In March/April

Yeah, the S16G starts to drop off in efficiency at around 18 psi. This doesn't mean you can't go past that, it just means the air is going to get even hotter, and you won't make quite as much power per pound of boost over 18 psi as it does in lower boost. If you plan to push it over this, be sure to have a good FMIC. YOu want to keep the intake temps as low as possible when going that high of boost on the S16G.

shootin for 19psi here, 16g, smic, water\alcohol injection...no problems on 91. a 2.2 pressure ratio on a 16g is about 19psi, which is FINE if you look at a 16g compressor map, but yea....im obviously not stayin 16g, shit....even my 2 liter for that matter

good luck with it :thumbsup, make your own water injection system, its so not hard


_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca


as needles of ice
are the ill winds' talons
the coldest of shadows
they seep unto the bone

highest power ive seen w/ the 16g w/o nitrous was Mark's Avenger, and he mad 330whp @ 21psi. at 22psi, the car did not make any more power.

IIRC, he did this w/ 440cc injectors and a 100/93octane mix

That was also still on a stock head and stock ignition.




I run 18psi daily on 93 w/ stock ignition, i have a bit more fuel tho (8inj setup - 270cc primaries, 440cc secondaries)

Here is Hahn's efficiency chart with their turbo's. Good stuff.

http://www.hahnracecraft.com/hahn/parts/turbo%20efficiency.htm

yeah that's a neat chart...so a Big16G power loses efficiency by 350HP which is like 300whp. that's not bad. that's the thing, you have to try to keep intake temps lower, even though Hahn's IC has good cooling efficiency. well i don't know which 16G you have but i guess you can give it a shot at 20psi.

depending on cylinder head mods, i wouldn't go much past 17 or 18 psi with the 415's.

more boost isn't always the answer to making more power... i've kept my boost around 1.0-1.2 bar for the past few months, but i've done a boatload of cylinder head mods (upgraded just about everything minus the cams) man, were they worth it. even with stock cams, a good port job, upgraded springs, rockers, lifters, and oversized valves make a lot more power over stock. yeah, you loose a little velocity in the low RPM band, but who cares...

guess i'll officially announce it now... i'm planning on doing the 8 injector setup myself. i have paid for an 034 EFI, and i'm starting to gather other parts. the plan is to keep my 415's in the primary rail and get another set of 415's for the secondary rail. i'll be selling my S-FMU and buying some sort of 1:1 regulator, probably an AEM, Bosch, or Aeromotive. an obscenely overkill fuel system is what i'm interested in. i never want to deal with upgrading it again. i want to have the ability to run a FP3065 if i really wanted to much later down the road when my car turns into a track only car. so yeah, i'm going to buy a spare manifold and i'll probably have it extrude honed.

you could always get a DFI. there are a few people on the board with the Gen. 6. getting a DFI allows you to controll large injectors without having to mess with your intake manifold to add 4 more. it's also a PITA to tune and a lot more expensive.

another thing to start thinking about is drivetrain upgrades. things like a Quaife, Neon 3.55 transmission, and stronger axles/hubs.

Originally posted by ner947
another thing to start thinking about is drivetrain upgrades. things like a Quaife, Neon 3.55 transmission, and stronger axles/hubs.

All good responses. Don't forget about grippy tires. At 20 psi, I can barely keep my tires planted even in high gears.


I'm afraid I'm in the 8 injector camp also. It's not that running RRFPR's is not a workable solution, but in my opinion there are some variables such as partial boost, rising fuel pressure conditions, indicative thriugh the a/f meter, that just never seemed right when I ran that setup.

Now with the 8 injectors, my A/F meter stays so much more constant when I'm under boost, partial or full.

8 inj setup is your friend. i've been boosting with it since day 1 and couldn't be happier. you should really get a datalogger as well to assist with tuning or pay for some dyno time. anything above 16-17psi should be run rich unless you have a wideband to tell you whats up. weather changes air density so this type of stuff can change daily, always stay rich. use new plugs with each oil change, imo, b/c the last thing you want is some detonation taking out a crappy plug and that porcelin taking out a valve, rings, turbo..etc. just a precaution and its only an extra 7 bucks per oil change. the stronger axles are pretty much a suggestion, i'd rather it snap then take out a diff. now adays those things are sold w/ a life time warranty so if you have the power to break them make sure you check that and keep your reciept. bigger tires will help, i have 225's on my 17's and keep more to the ground now for sure, but i do have an lsd as well. with wideband o2 setups becoming cheaper by the day i'd say if you can get one then do so. best tuning tool hands down. if you have a data logger to see whats doing with your time and a wideband to see sup w/ your a/f then your as good as gold. always play it on the safe side w/ your a/f. rich rich rich

Originally posted by JasonESi_T
All good responses. Don't forget about grippy tires. At 20 psi, I can barely keep my tires planted even in high gears.

Yeah same here. I'm glad my tires are about bald, I'll have to go get new ones. They are only 4 months old. :shrug

I think the 20g will be the first addition to my eclipse this spring.

A standalone ems or at very least the 8 injector setup is almost required for higher boost levels.

Ok, thanks for all the replys guys. Keep it coming if you think of anything else. Basically you're telling me that the safest ways to increase fuel is the 8 injector setup or DFI, which makes sense. My goal is NOT to spend a whole lot more cash on the car this summer. About how much does the whole 8 injector setup cost?

I will be buying a datalogger very soon and I'll throw the car on the dyno as well to see how my a/f is acting. I'd like to see how far I can get still using the SFMU with just primary injectors instead of re-doing the whole fuel system. Do you really think partial boost situations are that much of an issue? On WOT you only see partial boost for fractions of a second. Would that really cause enough of a lean condition to cause engine damage to a built bottom end in that short of time?

ok this is the skinny on 8 injectors as i see prices

4 aditional injectors (depends on how much more you gona run..i would buy stockers...swap them to ecu controled bank and run your 415's? on bank #2 controled by eic..that should give you bout 640 cc of fuel...now you can sell your safc, fmu..since you will be doing something totally diferent)

130 ish for 1:1 aeromotive 13109

300 for 034 eic

$x for fuel rail..either aftermarket or good ol 97+ at graveyard

now depending on A) will you buy a second lower runner section to drill in (highly recomended) B) how much will couplings run you....
those are variables in price...now you can figure out the pricing for all....034 setup costs not much more than a sfac/sfmu setup and i beleive its inmensely superior (hello nice idle....reason im going with it)

great...now how am i gonna run THIS by the wife?? you guys couldn't have started this post 2 months ago when i could still spend...?

As stated above there are many different ways to get to your goals. There are also differences in cars and conditions so what works for one easily may not work for another w/ the same amount of ease. Stuff you already know of course.

IMO getting the air in isn't hard. Its getting the wheels to hook up that is a PITA.

Originally posted by tim97rs
great...now how am i gonna run THIS by the wife?? you guys couldn't have started this post 2 months ago when i could still spend...?

I hear ya Tim. I hear ya...