136,200 miles on my boosted talon, i wanted to buy the ricekiller block but after this deal came up i could resist

just got a brand spankin new 0 miles fully assembled long block from a mechanic friend of mine and was curious as to what i could do with it.

i cant afford to much seeing as how its christmas and all so was wondering what mods i could do whilst the motor is out, here are my thoughts:

i *heard* that JE makes stock bore pistons and that i could run 12psi on them, is that true??? if so, i'm DEFINATELY getting JE's and new rings. what all would i have to worry about? i just want to keep stock rods but would i need some clevite rod bearings? (might as well i figure) also i'm getting a AF/X UDP, any input on UDP and 12psi?

also, whats some good break in oil? i know not to use synthetic

MUCHAS TIA


_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca

DarkOne> Screw you guys, i'm going home.
chrysler kid> and fyi i have never HAD to shave.
DR1665> I'm sure your Talon and my Talon are all there needs to be, since we're the only two Talons that really matter around here

"drugs have taught an entire generation of american kids the metric system. "

OK, how spankin new are we talking? Like just casted? I'm not sure if JE makes a STD bore piston or not. I'd imagine they do, but it could be costly if they consider it to be "custom". Bearings and rings come all sorts of ways, take your pick. If you are paying to have new pistons put on old rods then you might as well save and buy the Eagles. No point in taking it all apart twice and doing more damage the second time around. I know X-Mas is here, but I'd beg borrow and maybe steal to try to get the better rods. I've assembled a shit-ton of short blocks and one that I did twice. Once b/c the duouche wouldn't buy better pistons and then the same motor again b/c he blew it up at the track on a big shot. The second build was roughly twice than the original build plus machine work. Take my advice.

Originally posted by Erik
Take my advice.

take your advice and steal money for new rods? um, no dude. thanks for the input though. i want to run 10psi daily and i just want better than stock pistons so i dont have to worry about the shitty ring lands.



_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca

DarkOne> Screw you guys, i'm going home.
chrysler kid> and fyi i have never HAD to shave.
DR1665> I'm sure your Talon and my Talon are all there needs to be, since we're the only two Talons that really matter around here

"drugs have taught an entire generation of american kids the metric system. "

http://forums.2gnt.com/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=5&topic_id=47785&mesg_id=47785&listing_type=search

Still not listening to nick. I am sorry they are weisco not Je's. I knew it was one or the other. People have run 14psi on stock rods all day long. Infact there is a guy running 17psi on them. He posted about it just a bit ago. Also there is a guy that has A SWEET looking yellow tities eclipse that is doing this also. The only problem is if your bore is oval from wear. But you have 0 miles so that is not a problem.
Nick
97RS

turbo8u> shut your SUCK
ZAO684: NIPPLE warning...maybe>?

haha you fuckin rule nick, thanks man! this is perfect :) where would i pick up some of these weiscos?

will i need diff piston rings?

edit: thanks again nick :thumbsup, u da man. i'll check out bulldog but keep ur eyes open for em, i'll probly end up just calling them. how much you pay for yours?

******NOTE*******

i figure if you can run 17psi on stock rods with just pistons why the fuck not? i just want 10psi daily because i think thats the most fun ever :) its so fast. i tune pretty good seeing as how i kept my 136K+ motor alive and boosted for almost 20K miles at 10psi on stock everything. im not building my motor right now because if i were i'd have the friggin 2.2 FTY block and a stage 4 CM and LSD by now, duh. i know upgraded rods will help but i dont have the cizash, or i obviously would. i'll be in the 13's with a motor i only paid 500+new pistons for, nuff said, you cant beat that, thats the whole point of me doing this.

any and ALL input is much appreciated, anything you can tell me about doin a rebuild will certainly not hurt. just dont keep sayin the same thing :thumbsup
_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca

DarkOne> Screw you guys, i'm going home.
chrysler kid> and fyi i have never HAD to shave.
DR1665> I'm sure your Talon and my Talon are all there needs to be, since we're the only two Talons that really matter around here

"drugs have taught an entire generation of american kids the metric system. "

I don't mean to be a pessimist-if these stock rods are new... Could be ok for a while, I'm just in the habit of replacing the "weakest link" if it easily accessible. I do not claim to know as much as most of you on these posts- I learn ALOT every time I visit!

Trust me when I say boost can be addictive... Better rods not only allow for more "daily" boost, they give that added additional security during the occasional boost spike. If you're gonna replace the pistons, might as well do the rods, imo.

PEOPLE WTF DONT YOU GET?!?! HE DOESNT HAVE THE FUNDS! DOESNT WANT TO WORRY ABOUT STOCK RINGS AND SHIT. HE IS ASKING IF THIS IS POSSIBLE. The ANSWER IS YES. IS IT A GOOD IDEA AND SOLUTION FOR HIS SITUATION?!? THAT IS FOR HIM TO DECIDED, my opinion is yes.



Sorry for the caps, i was pissed.


Edit: I have no idea where to get them sorry bro. But, you can get the rings with the pistons. Mine came as a package. I know that bulldog motorsports caries wiesco for our application. Im actually pretty sure that they have standard bore.


Sorry for being a dick.. long day.


Nick
97RS

turbo8u> shut your SUCK
ZAO684: NIPPLE warning...maybe>?

this is what i got to say. if you will pull the motor and drop it in and dont mind go the 'cheaper' way. i dont know how any mechanic could have a brand new motor built from the factory without it going into a 420a direct? oh yah, if your going to put stock bore aftermarket pistons, along with some 77 bearings thats going to take extra cash and time.
how much money you got to spend that should answer most of the questions..
fyi: i rather do everything correct the 1st time then have to go back and waste extra money/time in the long run.
Michael
99gs HRC Stage IV 8-Injector Setup
2GNT Member #32

UM,
I think you are forgetting something. JE or Wiseco pistons are made with a wristpin for a bushed rod. Our stock rods have press fit pins. you will still need to get the rods machined and bushed.

I dunno how much this will cost, but you will need to factor this into the price.

lates
james

Yeah don't steal, but I was making a point. Yes those pistons bushed and the rods will need to be resized. If you do not have the funds to go fast properly, don't bother going fast. Run the long block, save your money, and then blueprint and assemble a block that will leave no doubts. Today sucked so I'm gonna go have a 12 pack:cheers

:bowdown = jamesman



Nick
97RS

turbo8u> shut your SUCK
ZAO684: NIPPLE warning...maybe>?

oh yah, what james said. So really you are 'not' saving much money haha...
just do it correct the 1st time man..
Michael
99gs HRC Stage IV 8-Injector Setup
2GNT Member #32

to answer everyones? the weisco pistons will have to be pressed on to the stock rods by a machine shop. nothing speacial they heat the rods a little, and press them in. price for the pistons from raceengineering probably $420 with rings. i've boosted 14psi on weisco and stock rods no problem for a yr. i blew this motor yes blew this motor from a serious tunning error, basically i wasn't getting no fuel preassure , in tampering with the Sfmu i forgot to tighten the static screw back down it got loose some how ,try to run 15psi with 30psi on of fuel preassure not pretty homie.craziest mistake costly misstake always make sure you have fuel preassure. i got the car home from the streetracez i took it apart the nextday, I put the weisco to a serious test the ringlands didn't break but the rings started to melt to the piston. luckily i know this motor inside and out. i could of bought another set of weisco but i decided not to be lazy this time and i took the whole motor apart got oversized jE pistons and eagle rods. now i just need some dyno time and some tunning with these 440z and Sfmu. if you have stock pistons there gonna crack eventually. built motors blow too from bad tunning but when they blow its not as bad as it seems. i rarely post on here. so straight up man if i were you if your only gonna boost 10psi get the weisco and put them on your stock rods. I live in SoCal too but i live up here in lancaster ,palmdale kinda far from you i think. but when you buy the pistons there gonna sell you the rings that go with those pistons. make sure you get the head resurfaced. I'm bout to pull the head off my car monday cause the valve guides or seals are starting to go bad. I'm gonna have the machine shop do a complete stock head rebuilt email me if you want ()

That would be the guy i was talkin about... :thumbsup

Nick
97RS

turbo8u> shut your SUCK
ZAO684: NIPPLE warning...maybe>?

Originally posted by Tommyboy
so straight up man if i were you if your only gonna boost 10psi get the weisco and put them on your stock rods.

muchas gracias :thumbsup. it wont cost me anything to have my machinist get those wiseco's on the stock rods, no probs

thanks tommyboy ;) thats exactly what i needed

i'm still lookin for some cheap rods though

***another note***

whats all this "do it right the first time" i mean duh, im 19....i dont have the money to do it that way. if i had friggin 3 grand i'd be building this beast like no other, but i dont. i have about a grand to work with here and i think a 420a at 10psi daily is WELL worth my grand. im trying to get the best of both worlds here, please understand that. i want to boost 10psi daily, not some beast 420a turbo, just quick enough to get me through school. i'll have an extra engine so i'll probably just build the fuck out of that, just not right now. im sure you all understand my scenario

fact is, the setup WILL work, and i'm definately jazzed that i'll be sportin the stocker 420a :) heh, maybe i can beat hahn's stage 2 times or something.

TRUST ME, if i could build her, i SO would. just cant right now.

again, thanks for all your input....especially jamesman, nick and tommyboy



_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca

DarkOne> Screw you guys, i'm going home.
chrysler kid> and fyi i have never HAD to shave.
DR1665> I'm sure your Talon and my Talon are all there needs to be, since we're the only two Talons that really matter around here

"drugs have taught an entire generation of american kids the metric system. "

Believe me, I've been in college the whole time that I've built serious motors. It's shitty to watch a car make a 10 sec pass on a motor you assembled and then go home in you 14/15 sec 2gnt. I know Tommyboy ran with stock rods, b/c I sold him the last stock pistons before he bought the Wiseco's. But since you are ONLY 19, man you got a long ass time to go fast. When I come here, I want nothing more than to see expectations met and good things happen. For the guys that know me, I'm a pretty positive person. I just don't want to see a simple tuning mistake put you out of your ride. That's all.:thumbsup

Originally posted by Erik
I just don't want to see a simple tuning mistake put you out of your ride. That's all.:thumbsup

right on man :) its all good, i know u mean well. i tune pretty well though so hopefully i dont make any simple mistakes. it's all gunna be cool though :) you'll see, i never let anything go overlooked when it comes to my car

pics comin soon



_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca

DarkOne> Screw you guys, i'm going home.
chrysler kid> and fyi i have never HAD to shave.
DR1665> I'm sure your Talon and my Talon are all there needs to be, since we're the only two Talons that really matter around here

"drugs have taught an entire generation of american kids the metric system. "

hey dude.. good luck with the rebuild either way. i just hate to see someone say " i blew it again " which i hope does not happen.. TommyBoy is the guy who loves pulling out his motor often and 'testing' the limits of certain parts of our engine. I need my car every dang day and i dont want to have to replace a internal part and have down time again even for 1 day. if you only got a grand to work with go the cheaper way.. fyi/ trying to be a dick to you but when i was 19 i worked and went to school and had 5+ grand layin around.. haha just trying to give you a hard time..
but good luck and hope you get it back on the road soon... :cheers
Michael
99gs HRC Stage IV 8-Injector Setup
2GNT Member #32

the car still runs i just have to go mellow and not boost so much, its not completely dead but the integrity of my ring lands are slowly but surely owning me

its all good :) pickin up the motor this monday :)
_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca

DarkOne> Screw you guys, i'm going home.
chrysler kid> and fyi i have never HAD to shave.
DR1665> I'm sure your Talon and my Talon are all there needs to be, since we're the only two Talons that really matter around here

"drugs have taught an entire generation of american kids the metric system. "

Goodluck with your setup man. i didnt read EVERY post, but if you are looking for places to get the Pistons still, try Race Engineering in Florida. their website is www.raceeng.com if i remember correctly. our shop has bought TONS of stuff from them. good service. and, IMO, Wisecos are every bit as good as JE's. and in MY experience(ive had both) they "slap" less. since you have a machining hookup, getting the pistons on the stock rods shouldnt be a problem. what everyone is saying about "doing it right" is so you dont end up spending even MORE money 3 months from now to tear the engine apart and replace the factory twig-like rods that you bent cause you got boost happy....and you WILL get boost happy. :-)if your only option was a set of 700 dollar Crower rods, i would side with the stock-rod situation also. but, cmon man, Eagle rods are DAMN strong and they are what now....300-350 bucks? save your $$ for a month more and replace those rods. you WILL do it. not a matter of if, but WHEN. i just hate to see you spend an extra whatever dollar amount down the road when the stock rods fail....and thats assuming they dont take something else out with them when they go, like the side/bottom of your block. :-) in whatever you decide to do, goodluck with it and enjoy da boost. its like crack....the drug.

1999 Black C5
1997 Silver RS
Wiseco 8.8:1 Pistons(back to low compression!)
Eagle Rods
T3/T4 Turbo
Custom FMIC
Greddy Exhaust
390's
Most current 1/8th mile time: 8.3@90mph 2.015 60'(Nitto Drag radials, i suck)

will wisecos go on the eagle rods no problem?





_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca

DarkOne> Screw you guys, i'm going home.
chrysler kid> and fyi i have never HAD to shave.
DR1665> I'm sure your Talon and my Talon are all there needs to be, since we're the only two Talons that really matter around here

"drugs have taught an entire generation of american kids the metric system. "

ok i'm getting some eagle h beam rods and celvite 77 bearings with standard bore wisecos from raceeng :)

anyone have a walkthrough for installing pistons? ive never done it but im sure i can manage. just gap the rings and get a ring compressor and slide it in the bore. what about bearings?

im so stoked right now :)

399$ pistons
79$ rings
300$ rods
70$ bearings
_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca

DarkOne> Screw you guys, i'm going home.
chrysler kid> and fyi i have never HAD to shave.
DR1665> I'm sure your Talon and my Talon are all there needs to be, since we're the only two Talons that really matter around here

"drugs have taught an entire generation of american kids the metric system. "

bump

so will wisecos fit on eagle rods? should i go with the standard clevite rod bearings?

TIA
_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca

DarkOne> Screw you guys, i'm going home.
chrysler kid> and fyi i have never HAD to shave.
DR1665> I'm sure your Talon and my Talon are all there needs to be, since we're the only two Talons that really matter around here

"drugs have taught an entire generation of american kids the metric system. "

Wisecos fit perfectly on Eagle Rods. its what i, and a lot of other people, are using. i dunno about getting them in stock bore though. most people dont sell stock bore forged pistons to cover their butt, so you are kinda forced to "do it right" and bore the cylinder walls over a tad to make there are no hot spots or imperfections. you'll ne a ring compressor,engine stand, measuring tools...and DEFINITELY a Chiltons manual, or better yet, a Haynes. goodluck my friend.

1999 Black C5
1997 Silver RS
Wiseco 8.8:1 Pistons(back to low compression!)
Eagle Rods
T3/T4 Turbo
Custom FMIC
Greddy Exhaust
390's
Most current 1/8th mile time: 8.3@90mph 2.015 60'(Nitto Drag radials, i suck)

I'm not a fan of the wiseco piss't-ons. Dude, I just sold my used eagles for $250 and they were in perfect shape. mabye you should wait and look for a deal like that.

Originally posted by turbo8u
bump so will wisecos fit on eagle rods? should i go with the standard clevite rod bearings? TIA _________ 96 talon esi-t san clemente, ca DarkOne> Screw you guys, i'm going home. chrysler kid> and fyi i have never HAD to shave. DR1665> I'm sure your Talon and my Talon are all there needs to be, since we're the only two Talons that really matter around here "drugs have taught an entire generation of american kids the metric system. "

Hey Bro be sure to hit me up if you need some help

****UPDATE****

of the guys who can and want to help me out with this:

these are the times we have to work with (shop hours/my days off):

FRI- (dec 19th)- 12noon-9:30pm
SAT- (dec 20th)- 9am-5:30pm
SUN- (dec 21st)- 9am-5:30pm
MON- (dec 22nd)- 12noon-9:30pm

now this is MORE than enough time then we will need i think but we will start working on the 19th and whenever we're done, we're done. im getting all the parts this week overnight shipped and josiah said he could help assemble it all sometime this week (probly tuesday or wednesday at best) you guys are MORE than willing to spend the night at my place, free beer and free other stuff(if you smoke) then we can all cruise down again the next day to the shop and hammer it out.

let me know if u guys have those days off, TIA

p.s- anyone have a truck?
_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca

DarkOne> Screw you guys, i'm going home.
chrysler kid> and fyi i have never HAD to shave.
DR1665> I'm sure your Talon and my Talon are all there needs to be, since we're the only two Talons that really matter around here

"drugs have taught an entire generation of american kids the metric system. "

I can borrow my dads f150, That sucka has only 200something hp, but torque enough to haul what eva you need. Let me know so I can ask early.

Things to remember that is NOT in Chiltons:
-Wash the block w/ soap and warm water.
-Dry it ASAP with compressed air and your best to avoid "flash rust"
-BrakeKleen is your friend(do not huff or you'll be retarded)
-pistons have marks to indicate front. Use them.
-CLEAN EVERYTHING! Shit=stuff breaking laterz
-Take your time! If you get frusterated b/c a ring won't compress and let the piston/rod into the cylinder--back off have a beer and try again.
-Use assembly lube. Motor oil will drip off bearings overnight and can "possibly" cause "dry-break-in" it's a contraversial topic among builders but I've NEVER had failure with the lube.
-Building motors is FUN! Get a clean trash bag BEFORE you start so you have something to throw over it when you call it a day.

get some moly assembly lube comes ina black tube about 15$
use it on bearings and cam shafts.

use oil on the wrist pins(good luck with the snap rings they are FUN)

DO NOT put TOO MUCH lube on your bearings unless you want to spin one..

get a plier type ring compressor!

make sure you have a good torque wrench.

you need some mopar anerobic sealer its red dealers got it.

mopar gasket kit is like 35$ from fenton

im glad you choose the eagle rods you will love yourself later when your at 20psi

get a stock MLS gasket and make sure your head is decked/milled to make sure its flat..


UDP install you can find your own info theres enough out there..

remember to leave the motor at topdead center before you put on the head..

if you need the factory service manuals let me know i can shoot them to ya.

USE the arp moly lube and torque specs.

you will need a 12 point 3/8 socket for the rods.

**note there is no machine work to install weisco pistons on eagle rods.** use engine oil when installing the wrist pin **remember to one in one circlip and then push in it on the opposite side.


on removing the motor gather coffe cans and plastic bags and label your shit! otherwise it will take a week to put back together like most people do..

Bill
pickup the phone if you got questions
509-342-0605

on break in a good oil is actually napa branded oil cause its made by valvaline

change the oil after the first 20min startup and filter to get any gunk outa the motor..

some people do oil changes at 500/1500/3000 its your choice remember oil gets dirty along with wearing out it could still not be cooked oil but dirty oil kills too

after breakin i would switch around 3-5k to synthetic mobil 1 redline, amsoil all good oils castrol from europe is good too..

bobtheoilguy.com

very helpful thanks bill :thumbsup
_________
96 talon esi-t
san clemente, ca

DarkOne> Screw you guys, i'm going home.
chrysler kid> and fyi i have never HAD to shave.
DR1665> I'm sure your Talon and my Talon are all there needs to be, since we're the only two Talons that really matter around here

"drugs have taught an entire generation of american kids the metric system. "

np good luck and happy boosting you know where to reach us if you have further problems..