A couple of weeks ago, I finally got around to having my VT Engines built block installed. I wanted to be involved as much as possible with this project and didn't want to have someone just install it for me. Luckily, I am good friends with my mechanic and he had no problem with me working side by side with his engine puller, Roy (Roy has 25 years of experience pulling and building engines. This is very evident by the work he does and the pictures below).

Some of you may remember my post a couple of weeks ago about problems with my VT Engine Built Block. After the engine was installed, it began leaking oil after only 70 miles of use. It leaked about 1 quart of oil during these miles. The transmission bell housing was loaded with oil. The culprit of the leak was a bad rear main seal.

This post is not designed to bash VT Engines as they do excellent machine work/engine assembly (after 70 miles the car already had a compression of 190 psi in each cylinder) but I think they need to use a higher quality front/rear main seal. I will show the quality of the seal they used and describe the problems I think the seal has. I do have to say that when I called VT Engines to tell them of the problem they did offer to send a new rear main seal out next day with no questions asked but would not cover the cost of replacing the seal. I did not take them up on this offer as why would I want to replace the leaking seal with another bad seal - I chose to use a Felpro Rear Main seal. I was disappointed to have to replace a rear main seal three days after use of the new engine especially when I paid VT to replace this seal during the initial engine build (VT Engines would not cover the install cost).

Always (if possible) have some extra time and money on hand when performing a large project as unexpected problems will arise. This did put me in a bit of a bind as I was renting a car during the week of the pull and had to extend the rental.


Here is a list of the parts my mechanic and I installed (some with pictures):

Clutch Masters Stage 4 Non-Modular Clutch

36lb (390cc) Fuel Injectors:



Cometic MLS Head Gasket:



New Oil Pump:



New Water Pump:



All New Timing Components (Crank, Idler, Tensioner, Hydraulic)





Engine Pull / Install Pictures

My mechanic and I pulled the engine only and left the transmission in the car. We used a ceiling hoist which made the work even easier. It worked out very well.

Day #1 - Stripping all parts to remove old engine from car



Day #2 - Engine Removed From Car






Day #3 - VT Engine Block / Transfer of Parts to New Block





(Notice in the pictures below that we repainted the block and the head. I didn't like the Gloss Finish that VT used on the block and the block needed to be cleaned better as the paint was already chipping off.)








Day 4 - Engine Installed Into Car

(Notice that everything was repainted even the hard coolant lines)






Day 5 - HRC Exhaust Downpipe Leak Fixed and Repainted (stainless flange for two piece system)





Below are some pictures showing the cheap seal that is used in the rear main. Notice how the seal does not have a lip for an inner spring. Normally, a spring is designed to keep the seal a perfect circle and aid in the sealing process. Without a spring, the seal will never return to its original shape.






Even though I had some problems with this install, it was definitely a fun project and I learned a lot about engine internals and the process of removing/installing an engine. I am now in the breakin process (have 250 miles) and I am getting anxious to turn up the boost. However, after doing all this work I will definitely wait to boost until I have a good amount of miles on the car (probably 1,000 miles). My goal is to run about 16-18 psi and make 300whp. It has been a long road but I am finally a stage III car.


Hope you enjoyed my long post!

Excellent information and pictures. It is unfortunate that VT uses such a low quality seal. Props for the heads up. Good luck.

1996 Eclipse RS / 5-Speed / Aerogear Body / Coated in Magnetic Red Metallic rev.2 / T3 Turbo Intercooled @ 8 psi / More at http://home.insightbb.com/~mgalyan/
Mark Galyan - Indianapolis, Indiana

doh. now youve got me thinkin about replacing my seals before i slap it back in the car.

When I called VT to let them know about my problem, they said that they never had a seal go bad. Maybe mine was just a fluke but I know that the Felpro seal didn't look anything like their seal.

The Chrysler OEM rear main seal does indeed have that spring in the lip of the seal. Maybe that spring poped out and VT didnt catch it..strange.. I dont know much about Felpro seals, but I used all OEM seals from the Dealership, and have had zero leaks..yeah, sucks, but what can ya do..

argh x( now you got me worrying:-(

thanks for the heads up at least

-------jezreel
hrc stage 1, sfmu, ml, prokits, egt, boost gauge, apexi tt, costum dp, dynotune fp gauge. gst muff, turbo spoiler

http://crosswinds.net/~fourtwentyaye/pictures/therealallyshady.JPG:

wow, I thought VT do a EXCELLENT job on rebuilding..and I am planning to go too.
But from what you said, ....they don't really give a great job on it?

What seal is that for? (what you mean the 'main')

BTW, how much total you spent on sending the block to them, rebuilt and sending it back. Thanks.
Gil

The rear main seal creates a seal between the crank, bedplate, and the back of the block. The seal is located directly behind the flexplate (this is the plate that has teeth on it which are used by the starter to start the car). It is used to keep the oil that lubricates the crank and rod bearings from escaping out the back of the engine and into the transmission bell housing. Premature clutch failure can occur if allowed to occur for a long period of time. After I noticed the oil coming out from this area, I did not drive the car until it was fixed as I was worried that I could ruin my new Clutch Masters Stage 4 clutch.


Other than the seal issue, I had absolutely no problems with the work that VT Engines has done. The engine starts right up and runs great. I was even more impressed that after only 70 miles the engine already had 190 psi of compression which is very good for an 8.8 : 1 compression motor. I did notice that the internals were JE pistons with Eagle rods and not CP Pistons with Eagle rods as stated on their webpage.


Cost of Engine Build:

Shipping Engine To VT Engines via Fed Ex: $110.00
Engine Rebuild: $1645
Shipping Engine Back To Me To My Doorstep: $122.85

Just Engine Build / Transportation: $1877.85


Items also good to replace at this time:

Water Pump: $129.00
Steel Head Gasket: $91.00
Hydraulic Tensioner: $146.00
Tensioner Pulley: $90.00
Idler Pulley: $71.42
Spark Plug Well Gaskets: $30.00
Valve Cover Gasket: $22.40
ARP Head Studs: $139.99
Thermostat: $14.18
Thermostat Gasket: $3.72
Clutch Masters Stage 4 Clutch: $783.00
Camshaft Seals (2) and Intake Manifold Seal: $20.00
Timing Belt: $104.00
Alternator Belt: 20.00


Engine Build and Transportation: $1877.75
Additional Replacement Parts: $1664.71


Total Engine Cost without installation: $3542.46


I recommend replacing all that I have mentioned while you have the engine out of you car. It makes no sense to install a water pump with 50,000 miles on your brand new engine or skip out on a simple seal. It will cost you more money to have to do it again for something as simple as a 3 dollar seal.


P.S. When shipping your engine, I recommend using Fed EX. When you call for a price quote, make sure you tell them that you are a first time shipper. That gives you an automatic 40% off. I also drop it off at a Fed Ex location to save myself the $50 buck pick up.

Another company to consider using for shipping is BAX Global. This is the company that VT Engines uses and it looks like it would cost around $122 one way with a residential pickup. That is a very good price.


Hope this helps.

That sound great...
only $18xx for the WHOLE THING done back to your front door.
Coz I am 95% done with my Stage 2 turbo.
then I have to rebuilt, and I can go straight to Stage 3.
so it is my next thing to do.

2 questions:
1) You said they gave you JE Piston instead of CP piston, which one is better?
2) About the seal, you said about the back of the engine..etc..
You mean the seal bettwen the Bed plate and the Engine block?
or the seal between the engine and the oil pump? Can you provide a picture? THanks man.

Gil

So how does your engine feel? Does it feel more powerful? Just wonderin. I need to get one of those. It will cut down on my paranoia.

I am completely sorry about the seal (it should have a spring). Your engine and etx's were ordered before we got the custom cp's done. I wish we could have caught the seal and saved you some time. If you need anything in the future we will do anything we can to make this up.

nick wolgamott

yea, they didnt start using the cp's till a few blocks were already out.
the je's are fine for what everyone here is using them for :)

Heh, oh man you make it look so easy ;). Nice job, Think you should of put a LSD in? I would of pulled the tranny and the engine at the same time IMO. Did you upgrade the clutch before?

I also forgot to add the cost of the new fuel injectors. They are about $50 each from Hahn Racecraft (total of $200 dollars for the injectors).



Gil,

I am not exactly sure which pistons are better. They are both forged pistons and should do the job of holding up to higher boost pressures nicely. I haven't read about anyone on here having problems with either brand of pistons. Maybe someone else could answer this question for you better.

Unfortunately I don't have a picture of the exact location of where the rear main seal is located. If you look in the picture below:



The flex plate is the large wheel on the left side of the engine. The rear main seal sits behind the flex plate. The front main seal sits behind the crank pulley and in the oil pump. The oil pump is on the front side of the motor (cam gear side).


The front main seal is the black ring in the oil pump going around the crank shaft in the picture below:






John,

Since the compression was dropped from 9.6:1 to a boost friendly 8.8:1, the engine is a slightly sluggish in the low rpms. This should be expected. I hardly notice it though. Once I have the motor broken in, the increased boost will nicely make up for this.




Powereclipse,

The project did go very well and we didn't run into any snags during the pull/install. You could tell all the work I did as I used masking tape to label all the connectors which you could see in the pictures. You don't have to do this as most/all of the connectors are a different shape and can only fit in certain places based on the cable length. I wanted to make sure I had all the connectors in the right spot so I labeled them. I would recommend doing this as it could save you troubleshooting time. It also lets you know you still have to connect something if there is a white tag on the wire.

If you choose to only pull the engine and not the transmission, I think you save yourself some work if you have the proper equipment. The ceiling hoist definitely made this very easy. When pulling just the engine, you do not have to take the wheels off, loosen the suspension, take the axels out, and remove the shift linkage/sensors. However, if you pull just the engine you do have to remove everything (alternator, powersteering, air conditioning compressor, crank pulley, etc.) to give yourself enough room to clear the clutch assembly/input shaft to the transmission.


After pulling the transmission to replace the seal, I did think about purchasing a LSD. I just didn't have the money at the time to make the purchase as they are quite expensive. The clutch was replaced at the same time that the new motor was installed. That is why I was extremely worried about getting oil on the clutch. We cleaned everything (bell housing and clutch) during the rear main seal install to avoid any problems with the unit. Hopefully, everything will be ok.

THanks alot for the detail answer man.
Now I know which seal you are talking about.
THanks.. (hey..I konw how you feel) remember I rebuilt my g/f eclipse engine over the summer also.... so much work..but I learned SO MUCH.

BTW, that seal...that kinda make me worry about going to VT engine for my turbo rebuilt. Coz the reason I choose VT is so that I don't have to worry about anythng, and just drop my engine in.... Hum....

BTW...I have two questions.

1) WHen you ship your engine block to them, what you have to include?
Just the block? or block,crank,bedplate,flexplate?
2) When you ship it, what you use to package it? any wooden box? or etc? and how they ship it back to you? (what packaging?)

THanks.
GIl

I want to konw more detail, coz I will do this soon.
Gil

When you ship the engine all you have to send is the block, bedplate, and crank. I also removed the stock pistons and rods to save some weight for shipping.


You can also remove all the sensors from the block to prevent damage to them during the machining process. The only part you may not be able to remove is the oil pump. The crank pulley that sits in front of the oil pump requires a special tool to remove it. Do not try to pry the crank pulley off as you can damage it.


I built my own crate to ship the engine. I then took scrap wood and used them to anchor the motor in the crate. The scrap wood prevented the block from moving around (tipping) inside the crate.


Hope this helps,
Kurt

Yeah, I got the JE's too. CP's and JE's are of the same quality, no worries. The way VT does the macine work they seal perfectly, as showin in KT's high comp. Shit, I had 180 on all cylenders before the motor ever fired up! I have about 2000 miles on it so far and have been boosting since 200 miles.

Things like this happen, even brand new cars from the dealership can have bad oem parts. I installed an OEM rear main on the block I got from VT and it does have the spring. As far as I know they use OEM parts, they gave me a new crank sprocket becase mine was busted, it was oem.

Gilee, if you don't want to worry about anything with your motor install take your time. Read the overhaul manual, use the proper sealants and torque specs. I have has 0 problems to date with this motor and its been about a month. Rebulid problems would be aparent immediately, abuse and wear problems come down the road.

So once again VT gets a :thumbsup :thumbsup from me, of course.

You could always take your motor to billy bob engine builders! You know, the guy that told you ya don't need crank berrings! :P

FWIW, the OEM rear main and the Felpro rear main look nearly identical. Same rubber softness, same spring and lip, etc. They both even have that thin teflon-looking outer edge. Anyways, you should have no problems with the Felpro. :thumbsup

Thanks for posting the install pics!

Not to bash VT either but I had leaks from both the front and rear of my engine after the install. It turns out it was my rear main seal also. I replaced it with a mopar one and fixed that. As for the front it still leaks but nothing major I think. I will fix it when I upgrade may head and have all the timing stuff off. Other than that there engine is awsome.

best time so far 14.3 @ 101.1mph

It sounds like VT may have just ran into a bad "run" of parts, i.e., some bad rear main seals. i wouldnt let it reflect on their worksmanship or reputation though. im just glad somebody is finally doing this for the 420A owners.

1999 Black C5
1997 Silver RS
Wiseco 8.8:1 Pistons(back to low compression!)
Eagle Rods
T3/T4 Turbo
Custom FMIC
Greddy Exhaust
390's
Most current 1/8th mile time: 8.3@90mph 2.015 60'(Nitto Drag radials, i suck)

Like I said, I haven't had a single problem with the motor I got from them and I am extremely happy with it. VT uses mopar seals so you replaced it with the same part! :shrug

Originally posted by etx
Like I said, I haven't had a single problem with the motor I got from them and I am extremely happy with it. VT uses mopar seals so you replaced it with the same part! :shrug

Well, I would hate to burst your bubble but they didn't put a mopar seal in my block. I beleve it was National rawhide or something like that. It was a seal that didnt utalize a spring or the groves to deter the oil from pushing its way out. Where the mopar seal I replaced it with had both of these features. The seal was also pressed into the bedplate to far. Live I said Vt does great work. I just feel thay cheaped out a bit on the seals.


best time so far 14.3 @ 101.1mph

KT...I almost forgot to ask you the most important thing.

How long it took VT to finish it?

Time to ship it there?
Time for them to finish it?
Time for them to ship it back?

THanks man.

KT...I almost forgot to ask you the most important thing.

How long it took VT to finish it?

Time to ship it there?
Time for them to finish it?
Time for them to ship it back?

THanks man.

i will probly have vt do my engine, i live in indy though so i dont have to ship it, i could drive it to save a couple hundred bucks. i just wonder how i am going to work out getting hahn stage 3 package but skip some of the parts because vt is going to hook me up. i dont know. any ideas anyone? i heard that you can remove parts from the hahn package as needed like say if you already had pistons or whatnot. thanks all!

Andrew... what would be the purpose in getting a Stage 3 if you are having VT/FTY build your engine? The only difference with stage 3 and stage 2 are the boost pressure and stage 3 includes the upgraded internals. Stage 3 basic package uses a S16G, right? If so, just get a stage 2, pick up a spearco FMIC for like 400 bucks, and upgrade to a 20G when you order the kit.


1996 Eclipse RS / 5-Speed / Aerogear Body / Coated in Magnetic Red Metallic rev.2 / T3 Turbo Intercooled @ 8 psi / More at http://home.insightbb.com/~mgalyan/
Mark Galyan - Indianapolis, Indiana

The time to completion for VT Engines for me was about 6 weeks but the amount of time is greatly affected by the condition of the block and crank that is sent to them. For example, the crank I sent them had some slight scaring on one of the crank journals. The person I bought the block from (for $45 bucks!!!) pulled the motor due to a spun bearing. VT had to send the crank out to be reground.


Out of those six weeks, 4 days where travel time for the block (2 days to get the block to VT and 2 days to get the block back to me).

Generally it takes 3-4 weeks if they don't find anything wrong with the core you give them. I believe its also a busy time of year, everyone here has thier cars parked for the winter and are ripping into them to get ready for next spring. michigan people are crazy about cars, heh.