Well, comp. test is done
1=140
2=175-180
3=60
4=200

My numbers at turbo install time was about 3-4 months ago were 190-205 across!

when i started it up to warm engine for comp. test, HUGE white smoke from the tailpipe! exhaust leak between downpipe and turbine housing as a result of oil being pushed thru. Oil residue in tubine housing (cold side clean) and exhaust manifold, and white smoke from cyl 1 when i removed plugs!

This is both :thumbsup as well as :thumbsdown! This makes me wanna ;( but also :7 cause now i can get an FTY motor and do a real mans turbo! BUT this is going to make my wife very ;( x( x( ;( :thumbsdown :thumbsdown :nono :nono x( x( :wary ;( ;( !


Jsupatran - not sure what i did or didnt do. I susppect it may have been partly due to me thinking i was runnign rich when in acutality i was very lean, as well as i may have turned the boost up a tad to high. I never went over 9psi, but who knows!!! Maybe i ran a tad to low of oil viscosity, 5-30. i dont know! It is inevidable that anyone who turbos a stock motor will kill it!!! Its just a question of when. Start savin!!!

there it is. Now plans change!!

Wow. Bummer... errr... Yay... I dunno what to say. Good luck with the new motor, and with the wifey.

-Chris b.

:) build it for more speed right:thumbsup

note to self: keep it rich. tell us how it goes with fty since i will go with them as well.

hope your wife doesn't :puke when she hears.

Sorry to hear about that Tim. I was kinda wondering when that would happen after you told me you upted the boots to 9 psi.

Quote:

Originally posted by tim97rs
It is inevidable that anyone who turbos a stock motor will kill it!!! Its just a question of when. Start savin!!! there it is. Now plans change!!

NO!!! Shut up shut up shut up!


Good choice with FTY dude. When I'm ready for a rebuild I'll be going to them. I just hope it's when I want to willingly rebuild and not be in your situation. I don't have a wife to be pissed at me, just two parents who think I've wasted enough money on my car as it is.

Sorry to hear about your problem. With all due respect, I guess the car will be resting for quite sometime, now that its the garage. But hey there's always this balance through life. You blow a motor, sadly, you build a better motor, places a huge smile on your face. See how that works....Take Care.

i like him!!!^^^^:-) :-)

9psi on the T-25 = How much boost on a S16G

What were your EGT's looking like?
What size injectors did you have?
Did you drive the hell out of it?

p.s. <---- Paranoid Turbo owner.....hehe I'm instercooled and still afraid to up it past 5psi...only because I can't afford a rebuild.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ryan_Hes
9psi on the T-25 = How much boost on a S16GWhat were your EGT's looking like?What size injectors did you have?Did you drive the hell out of it?p.s. <---- Paranoid Turbo owner.....hehe I'm instercooled and still afraid to up it past 5psi...only because I can't afford a rebuild.

i thought tim blew his motor at 5 psi, so i feel better now with my measly 5 psi set up. oh well, summer, hopefully i'll have my built motor.




-------jezreel
hrc stage 1, sfmu, ml, prokits, egt, boost gauge, apexi tt, costum dp, dynotune fp gauge. gst muff, turbo spoiler


:+ :) :-) x( :-( :( ;-) ;) :o :D }( ;( :P :9 :* :nono :rolleyes :wary :thumbsdown :thumbsup :7 :love :bowdown :shrug :cheers :puke

5PSI = 5PSI on any turbo. The differenct is in the VOLUME of air it is moving. The T25 only moves like 325CFM ( I think ), where the 16G, super or not, moves like 485 or somthing....so the 16G will alway's make more power than a T25 at the same PSI.

5psi on a t-25 yields less stress on the engine as a S16G at 5psi because it produces less power... I am trying to compare...

you're both off... 5psi = 5psi no matter what turbo, big or small, is making it. and you don't get more power out of 5psi from a bigger turbo thatn you would a smaller turbo pushing the same boost. just think about it... it makes no sense. a bigger turbo can output more air at a time, which means (in very simple terms) it takes less rotations of the compressor in a big turbo to build a certain boost than it does a smaller turbo. in other words a t25 has to work "harder" than a s16g to make the same boost. that's the difference, and this difference pays off on the top end, and in the need for higher boost.

Quote:

Originally posted by 97eclipseRS
you're both off... 5psi = 5psi no matter what turbo, big or small, is making it. and you don't get more power out of 5psi from a bigger turbo thatn you would a smaller turbo pushing the same boost. just think about it... it makes no sense. a bigger turbo can output more air at a time, which means (in very simple terms) it takes less rotations of the compressor in a big turbo to build a certain boost than it does a smaller turbo. in other words a t25 has to work "harder" than a s16g to make the same boost. that's the difference, and this difference pays off on the top end, and in the need for higher boost.

My friend is hitting 15psi on his T-25, yet I'm only hitting 5psi on my S16G..and we are tieing....I am just as fast. The T-25 is just less efficient than the S16G...

Isnt that why when people buy a STAR kit, they are suggested to boost less on the stock 420A engine than people who buy the HAHN kit (Which comes with a smaller turbo) because the STAR turbo is larger and makes more power at 9psi and the S16G does at 9psi.....

Maybe I'm wrong....but I'm deinfately getting confused.

Quote:

Originally posted by 97eclipseRS
you're both off... 5psi = 5psi no matter what turbo, big or small, is making it. and you don't get more power out of 5psi from a bigger turbo thatn you would a smaller turbo pushing the same boost. just think about it... it makes no sense. a bigger turbo can output more air at a time, which means (in very simple terms) it takes less rotations of the compressor in a big turbo to build a certain boost than it does a smaller turbo. in other words a t25 has to work "harder" than a s16g to make the same boost. that's the difference, and this difference pays off on the top end, and in the need for higher boost.

power comes from how much air is being pushed into the engine. so say 10 psi on a tiny turbo like the t-25 flows however much air, but then say a t-100 10 psi flows a hell of a lot more air. they are at the same pressure but one is pushing more air through than the other one. This is why honda people get big turbos on their cars because they can run low boost and push lots of air through. if 5 psi on a small turbo made just as much power as 5 psi on a large turbo, what would be the point of a larger turbo? thats saying that 20 psi on a small 16g makes just as much power as 20psi on a 25g. doesnt work that way,

we need dino the clear this up cause im confuse!

-------jezreel
hrc stage 1, sfmu, ml, prokits, egt, boost gauge, apexi tt, costum dp, dynotune fp gauge. gst muff, turbo spoiler


:+ :) :-) x( :-( :( ;-) ;) :o :D }( ;( :P :9 :* :nono :rolleyes :wary :thumbsdown :thumbsup :7 :love :bowdown :shrug :cheers :puke

Think of it like this guys... which will make more power?

15 psi of manifold pressure, 505 cfm of airflow passing through

-or-

15 psi of manifold pressure, 650 cfm of airflow passing through

You see, 15psi is 15psi, but more air is moving through the manifold and into the engine cylinders. Add more air and you can burn more fuel... that's how you increase power.

BTW- the top is a standard Mitsu. TDO5H-16G-10CM2, the bottom is a TDO6H-20G-14CM2.


APPOX. MAX OUTPUT
------------------------------------------------
TD05-14B (1 gen) 275-300hp @ 21 psi
TD05-16G (small) 345-365hp @ 22 psi
TD06-16G (large) 365-385hp @ 22 psi
TD06-20G (mitsu) 430-450hp @ 22 psi


I hope that helps to clear things up. :thumbsup :cheers

Yes it's true. 10psi is 10psi. Think of it this way. When you fill a tire to 50psi, well the air in the tire is at 50psi. It doesn't matter if you use a small ciggerette lighter powered air pump or a big giant 6hp 60 gallon compressor like the one in my garage - the tire will contain 50psi.

....back to turbos - the reason the bigger turbo makes more power is because it compresses the air more efficiently....blowing cooler air. When you compress air - it gets hotter. There's no way around it. It's one of those pesky "laws of physics". A smaller turbo heats the air more than a bigger turbo does. Both will heat the air but the bigger turbo doesn't heat it as much. Since cooler air is more dense - bigger turbos will make more power - and thats the only reason a bigger turbo will make more power than a smaller one at the same boost pressure.

The whole "cooler air is denser" thing comes to play with an intercooler as well. An intercooler will cool down the air - making it more dense and allowing you to make more power.

It may sound cofusing that bigger turbos push more air, and it surely doesn't sound like they do from the explanation I just gave...but in a strictly technical respect - it is true. The reason it's true is because the more dense the air is...well the more air you have. In the case of the turbo - the factor that effects the density is heat. Bigger turbos are more efficient, so they blow cooler denser air, therefore you have more actual air molecules to burn up. It certainly doesn't make the subject eaiser to understand when people try to explain "why bigger turbos give more power" subject with something like this:

Quote:

Originally posted by dougie2
15 psi of manifold pressure, 505 cfm of airflow passing through
-or-
15 psi of manifold pressure, 650 cfm of airflow passing through

This is very misleading because it implies that the engine would demand only 505cfm from one turbo and 650 from a bigger one, regardless of engine size or VE. This is false. Though the "efficient cfm@15psi" numbers for a turbo may be usefull on weeding out what turbos are too small for the engine - they have nothing to do with how much volume actually goes through the motor....that is dictated by engine displacement and VE. They also have say nothing of the acutal efficiency of the turbo. With a 2.0L motor at 7000RPM at a Volumetric Efficiency of 88% will demand 225cfm @0psi boost(N/A) and it will demand twice that much at 14.7psi boost - or 450CFM. As long as the demand is not greater than the turbo is capable of producing - the turbo can be used for the application. So:

At 15 psi of manifold pressure, 450CFM of airflow will be passing though - period.

A bigger turbo may handle 450cfm@15psi of boost better than a smaller one, but you have to look at the compressor map to be sure.

Here's a descent site that shows how to pick a turbo the right way - based on compressor maps. http://www.stealth316.com/2-3s-compflowmaps.htm

The same site also has some good info about the common "cfm@15psi" ratings like - what it means and how to use it. http://www.stealth316.com/2-turboguide.htm


95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
15.901 @ 88.34mph
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

Which will get you wetter?

5psi out of a drinking straw?
...or
5psi out of a storm drain?

Thats why a bigger turbo makes more power than a smaller one at the same boost levels- more volume. :thumbsup

Dont worry about it TIM. I went through it a couple times...LOL. It happens to everyone that has a turboed car. And if it hasnt happened it will! But when you have your new motor you can run 20+psi and life is GREAT at 20 psi!

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave_FL
Dont worry about it TIM. I went through it a couple times...LOL. It happens to everyone that has a turboed car. And if it hasnt happened it will! But when you have your new motor you can run 20+psi and life is GREAT at 20 psi!

I know I think I'm the 10 billionth person on here to ask this but why in the heck are you selling that beast!? I can understand for personal reasons but if it's just to get a new car you're nuts. ;-)

Well I have been liking it more and more the past few weeks. and I have had a few people want it but couldnt come up with the money. I just may keep it and run some 11's at 120mph soon! Well atleast I hope so. I really want a 2004 Ford f150 4 door but I just may have to settle for my ranger edge for now. My eclipse is paid off in about 2 months too!!..WOOT! I am doing some work to the car in the next few weeks and fixing some little things that need some attention. When I am done I am going to run 18 psi and get some new NICE numbers! I just hope my tranny holds up. I think it on its last legs.

uhm. metaljim is right.

just because the turbo is huge, doesn't mean that it is blowing more than a smaller turbo


lets say, that a 20g is spinning at 10k rpms.. (i have no clue what it really spins at)
and a 16g was spinning at the same rpm. the 20g obviously puts more air through because it is bigger. but they do not put out the same preasure.

you guys are saying that a turbo will flow more air at the same psi, that is not true. the 20g is beneficial because it is more efficient like metaljim says and because of the fact that it is spinning and working much easier than the 16g. the 16g might be topping out when the 20g is in its prime. meaning it can boost even more. the illusion that there is a set cfm at a set psi is incorrect. because think about it, like he said up there, it doesn't matter what you have pushing the air into the pipes, its the actual preasure in the pipes that matters, not how much cfm is flowed. if a 20g flows more cfm, then the preasure builds up faster. and the psi goes up faster(assuming the rpms on the turbo accelerate at the same speed) the 16g flows 450, so it would have to take that 450 cfm and spin faster to be equivelent to a 20g's cfm at a lower rpm. get it now? or are you more cofusied. that is my .02 cents. if i am TOTALLY talking out of my back end, and you can mathematically prove me wrong. someone slap metaljim really hard on his right butt cheek....yes, now do that again.. good! don't stop till it falls off and lands on your foot. after that pick it up and mail it to yourself.

Quote:

Originally posted by 420AYE
someone slap metaljim really hard on his right butt cheek....yes, now do that again.. good! don't stop till it falls off and lands on your foot. after that pick it up and mail it to yourself.

^ got drugs?


I was always under the impression that a larger turbo will gain you some hp. mabye i was wrong, it does seem that people are picking up bigger hp numbers with the 20g over the 16g...

420AYE... you are confused. First of all, a turbo cannot "put out pressure." I don't even need to explain the the physics behind this statement. There are hundreds of websites on the internet that will teach you how to read a compressor flowmap based on pressure ratio and CFM.

Bigger turbos are capable of producing more power. PERIOD. Ofcoarse the turbocharger must be well matched to it's application. In some cases, if not matched properly, a bigger turbo will be less efficient... causing erratic engine behavior and likely major engine damage.

The 20G helps the 420A make more power than a 16G because it has a higher rate of flow (CFM) and is more efficient. It produces COOLER and a more DENSE air charge. Add some fuel baby! Make some power! }(

Glad to see this thread morphed into a good learning tool:\

Simply put, everything else being equal: More air more power. If a turbo can be more efficient that helps to. (the colder and denser the air, the more power the air will help make)
15 psi in a coke can is still 15 psi.
15 psi in a trash can is still 15 psi.
Which one will have more air!!

I got this down...

>420AYE... you are confused. First of all, a turbo cannot "put out pressure."

You know what i ment. The compressor, which is obviously part of a turbocharger produces boost dude. i'm not that freakin technical!

>I don't even need to explain the the physics behind this statement. There are hundreds of websites on the internet that will teach you how to read a compressor flowmap based on pressure ratio and CFM.


Really, that is nice! just thinking of the basic laws on how a turbocharger works will give you more than enough information to know the real answer here.

>Bigger turbos are capable of producing more power. PERIOD.

Period? so it just works by magic? There is obviously a mathematical reason. Plus, Didn't I say that already?

"the 16g might be topping out when the 20g is in its prime. meaning it can boost even more."

>The 20G helps the 420A make more power than a 16G because it has a higher rate of flow (CFM) and is more efficient.

If we are getting technical, it is more efficient BECAUSE OF the higher cfm flow rate. And plus, did i JUST say that? Read man.

"the 20g is beneficial because it is more efficient like metaljim says and because of the fact that it is spinning and working much easier than the 16g."

I ment, spinning slower. typo.


>It produces COOLER and a more DENSE air charge. Add some fuel baby! Make some power!

UHM. DIDN'T metal just JUST SAY THAT? DID YOU READ ANYTHING? nnnoooOOOOOooo!! seriously...

Orignally posted by metaljim
"The whole "cooler air is denser" thing comes to play with an intercooler as well. An intercooler will cool down the air - making it more dense and allowing you to make more power."


I really am not trying to piss you off, but i dont think you have added anything. i might have a really weird way of explaining things, hence the,"are you confusied" statement. but if you read it carefully enough you will realize what i and metal jim have to say is true. 10psi is 10psi. so please, try reading the WHOLE thread before you just starting making statements such as, "420AYE, you are confused" then backing that up with a sissy statement.


THANKYOU SIR! MAY I HAVE ANOTHER!

P.S.I. IS Pounds of Square Inch, this is just a measurement. as stated above doesn't matter if it's 15 psi on a 16G or a 20G all you end up doing is putting out more CFM at that setting with a bigger turbo. :thumbsup

so guys that are saying 15psi on a smaller turbo= 15psi on a bigger turbo....ill ask you the same question i always ask. are you saying a Supra with a T-88 at 17psi would make the SAME power as that car with, say, a T3 turbo on it? i think not. pressure is pressure, thats right.... but the big turbo will always make more HP if the engine can run it, cause it flows more CFM and heats the air LESS...which equals more HP per psi...always and period. :-)

1999 Black C5
1997 Silver RS
Wiseco 8.8:1 Pistons(back to low compression!)
Eagle Rods
T3/T4 Turbo
Custom FMIC
Greddy Exhaust
390's
Most current 1/8th mile time: 8.3@90mph 2.015 60'(Nitto Drag radials, i suck)

>just because the turbo is huge, doesn't mean that it is blowing
>more than a smaller turbo

>a 16g was spinning at the same rpm. the 20g obviously puts more air
>through because it is bigger.

^^^ This is why I think you are confused. Two statements, right next to each other, completely contradictory.

>you guys are saying that a turbo will flow more air at
>the same psi, that is not true.

Yes, it IS true.

>the 20g is beneficial because it is more efficient like metaljim says and because of the fact that it is spinning and working much easier than the 16g.

Just because a turbo may be bigger and spinning slower doesn't necessarily mean the engine/turbo setup will be more efficient.

>the 16g might be topping out when the 20g is in its prime.
>meaning it can boost even more.

You're right about the 16G possibly maxing out while the 20G is still "in it's prime."

>the illusion that there is a
>set cfm at a set psi is incorrect.

I don't think anyone thinks that. What I'm saying is that the 20G will flow more CFM when the manifold pressure is 15 psi than the 16G. More airflow is the basis for making more power. Ofcourse, the aircharge will also be cooler and more dense too.

>because think about it, like he said up there, it doesn't matter
>what you have pushing the air into the pipes, its the actual
>preasure in the pipes that matters, not how much cfm is flowed.

^^^ Seriously, this is why I say you are confused... I'm not trying to down you or anything, you're just misinformed.

>I really am not trying to piss you off, but i dont think you have
>added anything.

I really didn't intend to add anything NEW in that post, I was just trying to sum things up for a few folks that said they are still don't understand. And because what you posted was false. Read your quote about "its the actual preasure in the pipes that matters, not how much cfm is flowed". I think you mostly have it figured out now though... you're just acting like you had it all figured out from the get-go.

>i might have a really weird way of explaining things

I believe so!

>but if you read
>it carefully enough you will realize what i and metal jim have to
>say is true. 10psi is 10psi.

Yep. Go back and read my first post, then read MetalJim's reply agreeing with it. Where do you come in? You say "its the actual preasure in the pipes that matters, not how much cfm is flowed." That's not true, and wasn't Jim's point.

>so please, try reading the WHOLE
>thread before you just starting making statements such as

I did read the entire thread, thank you.

>"420AYE,
>you are confused" then backing that up with a sissy statement.

I'm backing it up with the first two quotes of this message.

>THANKYOU SIR! MAY I HAVE ANOTHER!

No. Let's drink some beer. :cheers

Originally posted by 97eclipseRS
you're both off... 5psi = 5psi no matter what turbo, big or small, is making it. and you don't get more power out of 5psi from a bigger turbo thatn you would a smaller turbo pushing the same boost. just think about it... it makes no sense. a bigger turbo can output more air at a time, which means (in very simple terms) it takes less rotations of the compressor in a big turbo to build a certain boost than it does a smaller turbo. in other words a t25 has to work "harder" than a s16g to make the same boost. that's the difference, and this difference pays off on the top end, and in the need for higher boost.

Bigger turbos flow more air. Period. That is why they make more power. 5psi on a T-25 is not 5psi on a 60-1. You are making a completely incorrect assumptioon.

Anyhow, here are my questions before the thread was hijacked:

What were your EGT's looking like?
What size injectors did you have?
Did you drive the hell out of it?

>What were your EGT's looking like?
>What size injectors did you have?
>Did you drive the hell out of it?

I think I remember Tim using Ford Motorsport 30# injectors and never being able to tune them well because of erratic EGT and A/F gauge readings. A dyno showed lean conditions, he was showing key signs of rich conditions though. I'd say that's why it let go so easily with a small turbo.

Correct, other than i have the Accell 30lbs injectors. No i didnt even really drive it hard, not enought to blow the motor. I think it was driving around with the lean state for so long, and then maybe the little boost turn-up at the end from 7-9 (maybe more like 8). I have regrind cams that caused my the o2 sensor to see rich even though i was lean. My EGTs where fairly normal, nothing that got me jumping.