Okay guys, i have read posts on here recent and past about the problems with and gripes about turbo kit manufacturers. I am neither condoneing nor condeming any one maker( Well, maybe NER but thats last week) for the product they put out. But what i want all of you past, present, and future turbo kit buyers to please keep in mind is that these kits are essentialy custom kits sold en'mass. The only difference between my "custom" kit and a "prebought" kit is that with the prebought kit, you dont have to work out so many kinks.
Even from a "mass producer" such as HRC, you still get bad fits and questionable parts. There is no one universal kit to magicaly fit every car of the same type. Every car is a bit different to some degree for many reasons.
I think that the buyer, regardless of whether its from Motofool or HRC, needs to keep in mind is that these guys are trying to give us something that we all want for a price that we can all afford with the quality of the Huge name-brand companies. If you choose to buy from the "little guy", then you need to do so understanding that there WILL be issues with fittment, parts, quality, etc. these guys dont have the investment capitol, man power, and R&D that the "bigger" guys have.

Don't go to a used volkswagon dealer expecting to drive off with a new Porsche!!

Unless you have a machine casting or fabing your turbo manifolds, they are not all going to be exact or perfect. One turbo may sit a bit lower than the next guys which means the downpipe will not fit right, intercooler piping may not line up exactly each time, etc.

Guys, these are essentialy custom turbo kits that you dont have to do MOST of the troubleshooting on.

I know how hard it is to do a kit and the only difference between me and someone like, Motofool lets say, is im not willing to take on the expense, man hours, trouble shooting, cutomer service, marketing, shipping, fabricating by hand, aquiring all the nuts, bolts, lines, parts, and tech support to only MAYBE satisfy someones usualy un-realistc expectaions about quality and craftsmanship like he is!!!!!!

I have tried the "custom made" products and its very hard to satisfy someone with a hand-made custom componant and still make it time and money conducive. Everybody wants mass-produced machine quality parts for mass-produced prices. But when someone steps up to produce a part, item, or kit, that is wanted but not mass-produced, they still have the mass-produced expectatins, and thats just not realistic!

Lets spend a little more time appreaciating and SUPPORTING the effort of those willing to go out of thier ways to do for us what we ourselves cannot or will not do, and less time picking it/them apart for not measuring up to our over-inflated expectations.

Well said...
Nick
97RS

turbo8u> shut your SUCK
ZAO684: NIPPLE warning...maybe>?

Very well said BRO!!:thumbsup

Quote
Okay guys, i have read posts on here recent and past about the problems with and gripes about turbo kit manufacturers. I am neither condoneing nor condeming any one maker( Well, maybe NER but thats last week) for the product they put out. But what i want all of you past, present, and future turbo kit buyers to please keep in mind is that these kits are essentialy custom kits sold en'mass. The only difference between my "custom" kit and a "prebought" kit is that with the prebought kit, you dont have to work out so many kinks. Even from a "mass producer" such as HRC, you still get bad fits and questionable parts. There is no one universal kit to magicaly fit every car of the same type. Every car is a bit different to some degree for many reasons.I think that the buyer, regardless of whether its from Motofool or HRC, needs to keep in mind is that these guys are trying to give us something that we all want for a price that we can all afford with the quality of the Huge name-brand companies. If you choose to buy from the "little guy", then you need to do so understanding that there WILL be issues with fittment, parts, quality, etc. these guys dont have the investment capitol, man power, and R&D that the "bigger" guys have.Don't go to a used volkswagon dealer expecting to drive off with a new Porsche!!Unless you have a machine casting or fabing your turbo manifolds, they are not all going to be exact or perfect. One turbo may sit a bit lower than the next guys which means the downpipe will not fit right, intercooler piping may not line up exactly each time, etc.Guys, these are essentialy custom turbo kits that you dont have to do MOST of the troubleshooting on.I know how hard it is to do a kit and the only difference between me and someone like, Motofool lets say, is im not willing to take on the expense, man hours, trouble shooting, cutomer service, marketing, shipping, fabricating by hand, aquiring all the nuts, bolts, lines, parts, and tech support to only MAYBE satisfy someones usualy un-realistc expectaions about quality and craftsmanship like he is!!!!!!I have tried the "custom made" products and its very hard to satisfy someone with a hand-made custom componant and still make it time and money conducive. Everybody wants mass-produced machine quality parts for mass-produced prices. But when someone steps up to produce a part, item, or kit, that is wanted but not mass-produced, they still have the mass-produced expectatins, and thats just not realistic!Lets spend a little more time appreaciating and SUPPORTING the effort of those willing to go out of thier ways to do for us what we ourselves cannot or will not do, and less time picking it/them apart for not measuring up to our over-inflated expectations.

very well put. alot of peeps from the gottude turbo kit review post(not calling names, but u know who u are) need to heed this post.

DWAYNE H


www.gottude.com
Red/Black/Silver 01 GSXR 750
Lots of Apexi components...

Quotesomething that we all want for a price that we can all afford... with the quality of the Huge name-brand companies.

The difference in quality is HUGE! You can't even make that comparison!

What I have found in the world of aftermarket parts, usually, is...you get what you pay for. However support those that are supporting our common interests. Not everyone will be happy with a particular company or part. It is the consumer's responsibility to research each part or kit and then decide which they may want. Bashing is not productive to the producer, consumer and community. Everyone! Support those who support us and do the best you can to research what it is you buy and know the reasons why you chose to do so.

This post is moot. It's obvious that it's a bunch of Bill cronies trying to defend what they think is quality.

QuoteThe only difference between my "custom" kit and a "prebought" kit is that with the prebought kit, you dont have to work out so many kinks.

It's not even a prebought kit. The "kit" doesn't exist until it's paid for. Then, four months later the guy gets it. Any vendor worth his own ass wouldn't make a person pay for something months before receiving it. That's bad business.

QuoteThere is no one universal kit to magicaly fit every car of the same type.

Except those pesky HKS turbo kits, right? Only the Japanese can get it right, the rednecks here in America can't seem to figure it out :thumbsup

QuoteIf you choose to buy from the "little guy", then you need to do so understanding that there WILL be issues with fittment, parts, quality, etc. these guys dont have the investment capitol, man power, and R&D that the "bigger" guys have.

If they can't adequately produce a "kit" that has acceptable tolerances, parts and accessories, then they should take their kit and shove it up their pie holes.

QuoteUnless you have a machine casting or fabing your turbo manifolds, they are not all going to be exact or perfect.

What kind of donkey are you smoking, eh? You're so full of shit. If you have things called "jigs" or figured out how to use a welder you'd be able to get the tolerances close enough to be able to produce identical manifolds, and intercooler pipes. Besides, the mystery kit you may or may not be talking about doesn't have welded IC pipes, they're all connected with "high quality silicone turbo hose couplers" and worm clamps.

QuoteOne turbo may sit a bit lower than the next guys which means the downpipe will not fit right, intercooler piping may not line up exactly each time, etc.

Yeah, too bad the guy can't even get a group buy of HRC downpipes going, right? Must be because they're all different, huh? I'm doubting it.

QuoteGuys, these are essentialy custom turbo kits that you dont have to do MOST of the troubleshooting on.

Uh, yeah, they're custom to the application, they shouldn't be custom to your specific vehicle. Why are the "kits" we're not specifically mentioning "custom"? It's because the person making them can't make two of them that are the same. Should that be the consumer's fault?

Quoteim not willing to take on the expense, man hours, trouble shooting, cutomer service, marketing, shipping, fabricating by hand, aquiring all the nuts, bolts, lines, parts, and tech support to only MAYBE satisfy someones usualy un-realistc expectaions about quality and craftsmanship like he is!!!!!!

There is no Marketing. There is no tech support, or quality, or craftsmanship. There is no spoon.

That's the thing: The aformentioned unmentionable kit is a total one off because there is no template. There is no specific parts list. The "kit" isn't like any others because someone wasn't willing to put ANY capital into manufacturing the kits. Most REAL vendors would order a BUNCH of exhaust manifolds, or turbo lines, or piping. This guy makes one at a time after someone prepays him for the entire kit. That's not a kit, that's one guy making some hoaky ass manifold, and then adding some lines and slapping on a turbo. There's a kit!

QuoteEverybody wants mass-produced machine quality parts for mass-produced prices.

Any good fabricator can make a part by hand that far exceeds the quality of a mass produced part. I said GOOD fabricator.

Quotethey still have the mass-produced expectatins, and thats just not realistic!

If I paid someone to do a custom job, that's the quality I expect. Anything custom should have HIGHER expectations than a mass produced part.

QuoteLets spend a little more time appreaciating and SUPPORTING the effort of those willing to go out of thier ways to do for us what we ourselves cannot or will not do, and less time picking it/them apart for not measuring up to our over-inflated expectations.

Yeah, I mean seriously, give the poor guy a break right? He's just doing this all out of the GOODNESS of his heart, right? :wary

Oh, wait, he's doing it to make money, dippy.

If you think we've got overinflated expectations, I've got a box of shit to sell you. Come on buy it! If you don't, then your expectations of my box of shit are just overrated! ;(

i love this guy ^^^^^^:love :bowdown :cheers

Though be it politically incorrect I have to agree with much of what the tool said. It dosen't take that much capital to have a hand clamp weld fixture developed and built that will make Identical manifolds all day long. Where I work it would probably cost around a thousand dollars. That's if it was done on the fly with no design work,(if I got my fingures in it, it would be a different story;) LOL) That may sound like a lot but we all know that turbo maniolds go for 200 sometimes 300 bucks...for what? 50 bucks in material and and an hours worth of weld time...if that. Granted the flanges will cost something to get cut...but if you have a buch made at a time it's not that expensive. What I'm trying to say is it wouldn't take that many manifolds to pay for a simple fixture. Not to cut anyone down here because I know first hand how difficult a custom kit can be...but if your going to make money at it, a little planing, capital and invetory goes a long way...because when it comes down to it word of mouth is everything when it comes to a mom and pop opperation...if you start off on the wrong foot right away you have a tough row to hoe my friend.

Without going into too much detail.. Let's just say I hold a key position with one of the leading exhaust manufacturers, and from experience much of what mototool has said is very true. Just with simple fixture designs you can get within 1/16" in an upright or lateral position very, very easily and consistantly. There are variation and tolerance differences from model years of vehicle, but if anything is made for a specific application.. this should not be an issue.
Don't get me wrong, it's good to see the support/effort of others behind these cars, but to pass off "cobbed" up pieces parts as a "kit" doesn't cut it.. There has to always be a start, but if you can't manage to produce something that can hang with the big dogs, don't push it as a "kit"....

The bottom line is that to compare one "kit" to the next it's not apples to apples. Do some research and live with the choice you've made. I'm happy with mine.

Just adding some input for what it may be worth





420a and ej20... much boost by both

Quit defending people with shit products. That is just a lame argument. If you want to spend your money on crap go ahead. Trying to even compare the quality of HRC with the quality of some guy in his house trying to make a fast buck is low.

i love my hrc!

-------jezreel
hrc stage 1, sfmu, ml, prokits, egt, boost gauge, apexi tt, costum dp, dynotune fp gauge. gst muff, turbo spoiler


:+ :) :-) x( :-( :( ;-) ;) :o :D }( ;( :P :9 :* :nono :rolleyes :wary :thumbsdown :thumbsup :7 :love :bowdown :shrug :cheers :puke

I would have to agree with Mototool.

I did start the motofool turbo kit thread, but I think some people did get the wrong idea. There definitely were a lot of things that werent right about Bill's (motofools) turbo kit. I also don't feel I got what I was promised, and I also think it took way too long. I was a little uncomfortable with the whole thing after a month of waiting, and it took four months to get all the stuff. I want to make it clear though, that I don't feel I got "ripped off" per say. I didn't get what I thought I would, but I also still got a good deal, see the difference? I'm not trying to say Bill is a bad person or anything, but if we wants to compete in here with the likes of Hahn Racecraft, I must suggest something called Research and Development.


1996 Eclipse RS / 5-Speed / Body Components by Aerogear / Coated in Magnetic Red Metallic v2 - More at http://home.insightbb.com/~mgalyan/
Mark Galyan - Greenwood, Indiana

For once I agree with Mototool.

In response to R/D, research and development is a very time consuming and expensive process, that is reflected in the price. Hence the major difference between HRC/STAR/GotTude.

To me, I just feel the HRC kit is more through, granted a few parts are questionable.

Those kits didn't even have beads on the IC pipes to keep those 20 couples on. good luck with that, i would rather spend that money on the ebay electric blower! :nono I have been talking to livernois about making custom turbo manifolds for my Z. Guess how much its going to be? yeah, about a grand. Why? Because they make quality shit, its a custom job and I am paying a custom price. It will be of the best quality I can assure you. Hell, if I wanted a manifold made of paper mache I can think of a few people on here that would sell me one... :shrug

Quote:

Originally posted by etxHell, if I wanted a manifold made of paper mache I can think of a few people on here that would sell me one... :shrug

I can make you one out of paper mache. Only $650. You can't start the car, though :thumbsup

Its good that you guys are bringing these arguements up. This way, the builder can take the criticsism and improve on his work; Or he may just quit, who knows. All I know is that its true, you get what you pay for. But I find that with Motofool, if you tell him exactly what you want, it will get done. Its the people who just handed him the $ and didnt do any research as to what exactly they wanted, and just wanted it done asap, well, they got what they paid for. Its hard to compare against HRC because yes, they have so much R & D and experience behind them, but I kinda like to pick out certain mods I would like in my car that HRC doesnt sell (different turbo, sfmu missing link, etc. There are some improvements and innovative ideas Motofool has been making that some of you may not even now about, but with the many complaints and negative responces alot of people on this board have been doing, it seems were gonna lose out. oh well. :-(

And Mototool, instead of ripping the guy apart, why dont you try to help the rest of us on this board if you seem to know so much about quality turbo kits. I'm sure you have connections to other guys in the business (ie Magnus). I dont see them selling anything for our cars...

Initial DSM:

I agree and disagree with you. I had done immense research before I payed motofool for my turbo kit and knew exactly what I wanted. He simply couldn't deliver the goods, so please don't insinuate that I didn't do my part. I knew I was getting a good deal and thats why I didn't claim to be ripped of or anything.

1996 Eclipse RS / 5-Speed / Body Components by Aerogear / Coated in Magnetic Red Metallic v2 - More at http://home.insightbb.com/~mgalyan/
Mark Galyan - Greenwood, Indiana

I know what you mean, but I meant like talking to him on exactly what parts to order, from research youv'e done. I dont think he is totally limited in fabricating everything himself,I think thats just to cut down on costs so you can buy it cheaper. you can actually find from him other vendors that do the same or better work that he can connect you with. Its all in the research. I'm not saying you just threw $ at him and said 'go do what you like with it and be snappy about it', but you know what I mean; cause he can get specefic parts and has many connections to other vendors. Some of which hes changed and gotten better ones too. Alls I know is I wanted a block with specific brand name internal parts that Howell wouldnt provide. WIth a custom mod, you can say I want Crower as opposed to Eagle etc etc. But dont expect to pay the same price.
I wanted a specific turbo to use which HRC doesnt sell. Not that I dont think that either company is good (I do), but those are the parts that I want to use. Hence custom. I can only say this; Im not 100% on this, but it seems to me, you did not ask for pics of your specific kit before it was sent and assumed you were getting what you pictured in your mind. Ive seen some of Motofools other work recently, and I can only say that with the right equipment ordered, it looks damn impressive.
Just look at it this way I guess: you paid less than half of what others would normally pay, yes you had to do a little running around, but you now have what alot of nt owners whish they had right now - turbo. You can always of course later upgrade parts here and there so its not so bad i guess.

I heard thers 5000 members on this board. So far, to accomadate us, we only have VT, HRC, Howell and thats it? IF its so easy to raise capitol like some people have said, to make custom stuff, out of the 5000 members, how come we havent seen more people do it? because with a small group such as ours, sometimes the ends dont justify the means.
I spoke to a transmission company once I forget the name; anyways, I asked them why they cant make or rebuilt our trannies like TRE, Shepard, or BM does, because we do have a market for them. You know what their answer was? Cause were not worth it. sucks! so all I can do is get a neon 3.55 as an upgrade? Look how many 4G63 companies and affiliates are out there (slowboyracing, etc) that started off small and now are doing well. sure they had their complainers and bad starts, but as a whole they were backed by their community and saw the beneift of sticking with it. Its not eays to start your own business, I know Ive tried and I work for myself too. For everytime you get a happy customer, youre always going to get a few that you cant satisfy no matter what. Its not easy , and I think the point of the thread was to reflect that and point out the way he and others have helped he board.

I did request pictures and detailed information over the 4 months he took to put the kit together. I was very concerned about how long it was taking. Everyone around me constantly cracked jokes on me saying "Yeah you're never getting anything from that guy"... Everything looked great on paper and in pictures, but once it all started to go on the car, we realized that we could have got all these parts for this exact same kit in a week. Bill didn't even send bolts to attach the oil drain flange to the turbo, or the velocity stack. Hell, I didn't even get any bolts or studs to attach the turbo to the manifold. Granted, these are small items and inexpensive ones, but thats EXACTLY why this kit was considered incomplete by me. Four months was plenty of time for him to go to the hardware store and buy bolts for it. Now once again, I'm not claiming to be ripped off. I got a lot of great parts for a really good deal, but it still is no excuse to fail to deliver what someone promised, especially in the time given to complete the kit. I think thats as simple as it gets.


1996 Eclipse RS / 5-Speed / Body Components by Aerogear / Coated in Magnetic Red Metallic v2 - More at http://home.insightbb.com/~mgalyan/
Mark Galyan - Greenwood, Indiana

you get what you pay for.

One day I want to be as cool as Suieclipse. :bowdown :+

Hopefully when my cars ever done maybe... maybe..}(

well, sorry but its only true.. think of how many people are completely unhappy with a hahn kit. granted a few of the parts could be better, but still.. over all, its a great kit and well worth the money for the kit and the suppor that comes with it.

James