Just curious. I personally dont believe our cars are detonating all the time or even most of the time at moderate boost levels (or at all at 10lbs and under) . Cast pistons wouldn't last a month under daily detonation. I do believe its possible to have high rpm detonation without any means of detection without telemetry but dont think thats why people are blowing either. I also know are engines are one of the most detonation resistant engines out there by design and practice(just take a look at the semi wedge head and nearly flat top pistons or spend more time at neons.org with 12:1 pump gas NA 420A's). The question is at what point (hp level, boost, on your kit, whatever) does detonation really become a concern that needs adressing (in the form of timing retard) assuming efficient enough intercooling and adequate fuel. Right now I dont think anyones knows for sure.


Stan2gnt
Stan2va@aol.com
95 Talon 420A-Turbo
Former and future nitrous user

my thoughts exactly. I have ran 11 PSI, with just some octane booster dumped in, and no detonation. In fact, i feel that my car runs too rich half of the time. I have never noticed the slightest bit of detonation. I keep boost sane on the street, dump race gas in for the track, and i don't see any problems. I think our motors are built a hell of a lot better than even some older turbo cars were, and they have been known to run 15 PSI. For example, the chrysler 2.2 turbo motors. I would venture to say that alot of these motor failures were related to human error, or boost spikes caused by us doing something. Either that, or faulty parts on the car, like Raizin's cam shaft snapping. I just don't see how everyone is getting detonation.


jason
95 GS Turbo

Stan... that's what I meant. You misunderstood me. I didn't mean you're detonation all the time.. but under hard acceleration. If you're knocking at idle than you definately have a problem.

damn, raizin, you snapped a camshaft!??!?!?

Chris Dishmon
-----------Mods-----------
Interior:
-color painted interior
-fire extinguisher
-Topspeed short shifter
-aluminum shift knob and pedals
-Grant Evolution steering wheel
Exterior:
-Neo Blitz Front Bumper
-17" ICW 10 spoke wheels w/ 215/45 yokahama's
-APR GT1 adjustable aluminum wing
-Toyota Supra turn signal/foglights
-Aerogear fiberglass hood w/ Sparco hoodpins
Engine:
-Weapon R intake w/ ram air hook up
-NGK plugs
-Accel 8mm ignition wires
-Catco hi-flow cat convertor
-Apexi Dunk Muffler
Suspension:
-front and rear strut tower bars
-Tenzo R lowering springs
-front and rear camber adjustment
Stereo:
-Kenwood In-dash CD player
-Kenwood graphic EQ
-Orion Cobalt amp
-6 1/2" Infinity Kappa speakers
-6X9 Alpines speakers
http://klipzracer.homestead.com/index.html
chrisdishmon@hotmail.com

Yeah raizin I know what you meant (and a little exaggerating to make a point. I do it all the time). But since you said it I just used it to make my thread more exciting.


Stan2gnt
Stan2va@aol.com
95 Talon 420A-Turbo
Former and future nitrous user

Have you noticed how its always just "the bunch of us" discussing this topic? I wonder why everyone else is avoiding it.

My car ran richish (safe) too all the time when I blew up the engine.

When I blew up the engine was after quite some hard driving. I honestly don't think it was the pistons, just the rings that suffered. I still have my original engine in my car. I will remove it (and instpect it) when I switch it with the new motor.

Guy
RS_Guy



http://www.GTuned.com

But it is not the only cause. i think the main reason 420A's break under boost is the internal parts inability to produce the power that is being tapped (there is only so much that a factory piston ring or connecting rod can take basically).

Bring it on............

I avoid it because I don't know enough to make an educated answer. I am still learning about turbos. I have learned a lot over the last couple years from this board. And in about a month (if the New edge kit ever comes out) I will learn a LOT more when my car is boosted. Speaking of turbos....It is hard to stop myself from buying the star kit. I will have enough for a star stage one next week but I want to hold off for that new edge kit. I know if I buy the star kit and the new one comes out I will be very pissed off. I guess good things come to those who wait? Please hurry Shaun and Wyatt!!!!!!!!!!!! I NEED BOOST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DAVE_FL
97GS
AEM CAI
AFX PULLEY
AFX solid motor mount
Magnaflow exhaust
Sparkco 9mm wires
Eibach Pro Kit
tokico shocks
Altezzas
A Badass sound system
Indiglows,neons,and all that good stuff...hehe
BOOSTING SOON!!!!!

I haven't been avoiding, just not ed-ja-ma-cated enough to put my two cents in... besides this is only the 2nd day my PC has been back up for the last 2 weeks thanks to having to move...

I have been boosting for over 13K miles with zero problems. I need to do a compression test to see the health of my engine, but I haven't had any real problems (besides the accident)... knock on wood...

DoN
'99 GS Sports Edition
Star Stage 2, CFDF Clutch
Greddy Manual Boost Controller
Greddy BOV and EVO Exhaust
Greddy TT and shift knob
AF/X Underdrive Pulley
AEM Big Brake Kit
B&M Edge Short Shifter
Eibach Sportlines with Tokiko Blues

LAST EDITED ON 20-May-01 AT 06:50 PM (PST)

Wow, 13K miles... Cool!
What Boost pressure you running? Stock Internals I assume? Fuel System?

As for people trying na git edjamacated, well, we all are!

For me though, most of my "education" seems to be coming from my trial and error (boom) incident.... As *enlightening* as it may have been, I really prefer to lear this way, by asking, and throwing ideas around!

Guy
RS_Guy



http://www.GTuned.com

Another reason I think we have a disadvantage is oil cooling.
The 4g63 motors have oil squirters that cool the lower part of the piston. I would also like to look into having a separate oil system for the turbo. I don't really know how much of a difference that would make, cooling wise or metal breakdown but its something I'm interested in.
Wyatt Leras
http://www.turbogs.com
98 Eclipse GS Star Stage 5,000 Turbo kit

wyatt...you are probably the first person to bring that point up, even though i am sure alot of us have thought about it. At least i know that i have. I too have toyed with the idea of rigging up oil sqirters for the undersides of our pistons when i build my motor. all of the high tech turbo motors have them, such as the supra and i believe the 300 ZX. i am sure there is a way to tap into the oil galleries to run 4 simple squirters, and if not, there would have to be a way to run an electric oil pump or a mechanical of some sort to run it. Very good point you had brought up though.

jason
95 GS Turbo

Gettin bored with this. Need more boost!

This is where a separate inline super oil cooler comes handy...

www.permacool.com



___________________________
l e o n
1995 Eagle Talon ESi-T
Star Stage 2
Boost is GOOOOOOOD!

Wyatt.. that is absolutely true.

OK...so first. Where is HRC??? It is addressed to YOU!!

Second...Yes, it's true. I had PLENTY of fuel when I blew my engine:P Well, I'm not sure what happend yet cause I still don't have my stock manifold. But, Hopefully I will find out tomorrow or Wed. And I will let you all know what happened.

But, I do agree with RS_Guy...I think my rings are what suffered, not my pistons. It could also be my bearings, I'm not sure.

And I was also doing some hard driving when I did it also.



Ball Bearing Star Stage II
"Power is nothing without my engine"

>Wow, 13K miles... Cool!
>What Boost pressure you running? Stock
>Internals I assume? Fuel System?


I have the boost set for 7psi and boost everywhere I go. I know I run incredibly rich, EGT's are 1300 at 100mph... Stock internals still, and the fuel setup is the Star setup, stock injectors, intank pump, and Vortech 12:1 FMU... I want to find a donor block to build up within the next 6 months. Hopefully, I won't need it before then... :)

DoN
'99 GS Sports Edition
Star Stage 2, CFDF Clutch
Greddy Manual Boost Controller
Greddy BOV and EVO Exhaust
Greddy TT and shift knob
AF/X Underdrive Pulley
AEM Big Brake Kit
B&M Edge Short Shifter
Eibach Sportlines with Tokiko Blues

HRC is in this business to make a profit. That is why they developed the turbo kit for our cars in the first place ... there was a huge demand for it. They prolly will post a message after I say this.. but I see their non reply as an avoidance of discussing the detonation issue due to the fact that they don't want to scare people away from purchasing these turbosystems. So they lay low and pretend like they didn't see this thread. And I don't care if HRC comes at me all foul for saying this because I personally are not very fond of their business. Simply because when I called for advice way back when they wouldn't give it to me because I wasn't their customer with a proof of purchase of they're product. I was installing my star kit and I had no instructions and all I wanted to know was where to hook the vacuum hose up from the bov to the manifold or which was recommended. They totally blew me off.. so they can kiss my ass!!!!

if you want HRC's tech support, they are open just about every mon-fri from 1-5 central standard time. 630-801-9065. I am sure he would be able to give you an answer to why "detonation is bad" IF the turbo kit is installed properly, and your engine is in good working order, you should not have "detonation". I have seen wiht my own eyes a motor blow because it just couldn't take it anymore. running the right air/fuel ratio. HRC has put several months into testing their products, and they KNOW what works and what doesn't.

Bring it on............

LAST EDITED ON 21-May-01 AT 10:21 PM (PST)

I believe he said he's out of town racing bikes or something but I'm sure he'll catch the post sooner or later. I dont care for the hush hush tech policy either which kinda pissed me before I ever entered the market for a turbo kit and ran into a guy two days ago looking to buy a kit and said the same thing without me opening my mouth (I gave him turbosystem.com, turbogs.com, newedgeracing.com and of course 2gnt.com). I must say though he's good to his customers and if he was only in it JUST to make maximum profits I'd be able to buy some accessories from him that I know I could use (yet he wont sell cause its only been tested on his kits). Giving a little help should come from the goodness of your heart and not just a customer service practice (not once have I seen howell or nemo say "my customers call for help" and I've been over at neon.org for yrs. people remember that sh*t on their future purchases). Anyway I posted the question in the way that I did not just for answers but specifically to see where his heart is at (you know I may get a "HRC customers call our tech line" or "the 420A is capable of such and such provided such and such is this"). Redemption time.



Stan2gnt
Stan2va@aol.com
95 Talon 420A-Turbo
Former and future nitrous user

Wow! Leave town for a few days and look what happens!

Guys 'n' gals, I do enjoy participating here, but there will be periods where I cannot stop by daily. Sit tight, I will get back to this thread later today or tomorrow whaen I catch up from my absence.

Peace,
BHjr

LAST EDITED ON 22-May-01 AT 03:03 PM (PST)

RAIZIN sez:

>.. but I
>see their non reply as
>an avoidance of discussing the
>detonation issue due to the
>fact that they don't want
>to scare people away from
>purchasing these turbosystems. So
>they lay low and pretend
>like they didn't see this
>thread.

Bill sez: And I thought people APPRECIATED me participating here! This hurts...that I could go away for a few days to further improve the breed through racing and return to be accused of intentionally ignoring something for sinister reasons.

Then RAIZIN sez:
>.....because when
>I called for advice way
>back when they wouldn't give
>it to me because I
>wasn't their customer with a
>proof of purchase of they're
>product. I was installing
>my star kit and I
>had no instructions and all
>I wanted to know was
>where to hook the vacuum
>hose up from the bov
>to the manifold or which
>was recommended. They totally
>blew me off.. so they
>can kiss my ass!!!!

Bill now sez: How can I respond to this? What can I say that will not spark an oil well sized flame? The part that intriques/confuses/enrages me but still makes me laugh is this: had this fella had someone to call for help, an expert like we provide for HRC customers, he would not have called us at all, and HRC would not be taking it on the chin for declining to assist him. The irony is so extreme as to be absolutely hilarious!

Scratching my head,
Bill

I need to pick up the Neon from the chassis shop, and will return later to discuss Stan's question. Don't worry, I won't leave town again.......

Bill

LAST EDITED ON 22-May-01 AT 04:03 PM (PST)

Hey Mr. Hahn..
That was my first time installing a turbosystem and I had no instructions because I obtained the kit second hand. I had to make due with common knowledge. And this was back in early '98 when you had barely released the Hahn turbosystem.

The fact is, with your remarks, you try to damage my credability as retaliation for my slanderous comments. Although I never regarded myself as an expert, you had cut yourself down by being a little immature. But that's okay.. cuz I still don't like you.

So.. what is your take on detonation? This thread has yet to be replied to. Are you stalling? I mean you took the time to attempt to make a joke outa me....

Oh.. don't let my comments hurt you.. because they're my comments and I don't speak for everybody here.

Mr. Hahn,
I get what you're saying. I didn't read your post carefully. I guess you mean that I didn't have anyone to call for backup as far as the Star Kit goes. That is absolutely correct.

BUT!!! I know you understand how frustrating it is to be turned away when you need help. This was my first impression when dealing with your company so I never bothered to frequent advise from you nor did I bother to purchase anything from you. I had rebuilt my car three times and the availability for certain products was scarce such as JE pistons for the 420A due to a recent back order. In fact they wouldn't be available for quite some time. My associate told me that you had them shelf stocked and asked me if I wanted him to order from you. I told him you didn't deserve my business and I'd rather wait for the pistons.

First impressions make a difference mister.

But anyway.. as of now I have sponosors left and right and have my choice of local shops that too have extensive experience and research in components for the 420A. Such as F-max in escondido. Free stainless tubular manifold .. just to promote their business. And I hadn't spent a dime before they offered their sponsorship.

Short for you...

www.935draggers.com

Stan:

I understand your curiosity about my take on detonation and the 420A, but before I discuss your question, I would like you to explain a bit further about your intentions when you say: "Anyway I posted the question in the way that I did not just for answers but specifically to see where his heart is at..."

While the conversation has been proceeding here, and my absence has been negatively commented upon, my heart (and the rest of my body!) has been at an AMA-Prostar race in Rockingham. All of me is home now, but I am wondering what you are trying to say here. Enlighten me on what you mean before I address this question, please?

Regarding the HRC Tech Support Approach: When I request on this board that a customer call me directly on our tech line, it is due to my perception that their needs will be best served by a conversation, an exchange of information, not just a stock answer. In such a conversation, I can make more progress with my customer in five minutes than in a week of email exchanges or board posts. I ask questions, get answers, and am able to then pose a solution based upon their unique situations (and don't fool yourself, they are ALL unique in subtle ways that can affect my advice!). If this annoys you or others, I am sorry, but it will continue until folks just contact me directly first. If they pose the question here, I will do what I feel is the most effective method of assisting them. Sometimes a call just works so much better! I do not mind spreading info here, but phone calls can get both the customer and myself to a solution much more effectively, saving time and getting right to a correct answer. I am forced to economize my time wherever possible... doing so allows me to be there when my customers need these answers, while still enabling me to achieve the myriad of other tasks that make up my days.

For those who wish HRC Tech Support that have not purchased equipment from us: also see above, and please keep in mind that my customers have paid for the high level of support we provide. To give it for free to those who have not made the same investment is an injustice to the paying customers. Even so, I have made many general advice posts here that benefit all, so please do not accuse me of only assisting my customers (is this what you mean by 'my heart', Stan? Scan those archives if the answer is yes, and you will see how many times I have posted general info for all).

Regarding Selling Components to those who have equipment we have not tested upon: This is not designed to dis anyone, it is simply the most effective way for us to not entangle ourselves in situations in which we have no way to ensure a good outcome. All of our development work has been with HRC turbosystems. We are unwilling to risk the potential of bad results when our parts are combined with other systems we do not have a deep familarity with. It's a policy that, to date, has prevented many more problems than it has caused. Call me overly cautious, maybe even unable to see the opportunity to make more sales, but I rely upon my experience in making this policy. I completely detest the idea of someone being dissatisfied with the results of an HRC product that now does not deliver because of its incomapatiblity with their existing parts. They then are disappointed, and we are unable to assist effectively. I refuse to put customers and my company in such a relationship. There's only one way I will even consider it: bring that car to me, and let me mix 'n' match and determine the end result! Now that I can do!


Bill

LAST EDITED ON 22-May-01 AT 07:34 PM (PST)

I just want to say thank you "again" Bill for even participating to the amount of indignation that's pretty obviously been shown here. Hell, pretty much throughout both worlds, here and DSMtalk.com, I'm pretty damn surprised at the amount of disrespect you receive for merely running a business as you see fit an offering whatever advice or opinions as you see fit. As you know, I've always been a big supporter of your product and appreciate both the posts you make here as well as the time you've taken to talk with me on the phone.

I think it's absolutely WRONG for people to criticize you for not offering tech support to others who have chosen to go by way of another product and then expect you to graciously support them in their own turbocharging endeavours. As Bill has already alluded to, I bought the HRC system to take full advantage of that very advantage. I certainly would feel cheated should Bill start a "charity hotline" for STAR customers (or others) as they try to overcome their own difficulties. Not only as a fairness issue, but the exclusivity and the "extra" price I paid for. (I also feel that my almost 13 thousand HARD turbocharged miles are another testament to his product and design) I feel you choose your own "poison" by going another way...

On another note, I don't work for a private law firm, but if I did, do you think I would go around handing out "free" legal advice to some, while choosing to make others pay? I think you would all agree that type of behavior would dilute and saturate the value of my services, while at the same time set me up for possible ethical violations and malpractice lawsuits. Explanation: Should Bill decide to give you his professional advice regarding a system that he has not tested, that MIGHT set himself up for his own exposure to legal action. As a professional in the field of turbo performance, he is a "merchant of that kind" and one (ex. STAR customer) may be able to link any deficient (or misapplied) advice that results in damages, to a possible suit to Mr. Hahn. This situation can be analogized with a doctor giving you medical advice off-the-cuff, and you getting sick as a result from his advice. (i.e. he suggests that you take drug X without having your complete medical record and failing to recognize an allergic reaction that could result...)

(anyhow, as usual, I get way too long-winded and carried away...)

Either way, many here should be grateful at the participation Bill offers "free" here and showing anything but gratitude does nothing but astound me. Don't get me wrong. I thoroughly enjoy when Bill and Skrilla have debates regarding issues. But then again, when it gets personal, and attacks on the integrity of the way you run YOUR BUSINESS makes me just shake my head.

For anyone to come in here and be judged shouldn't happen. And Raizin, I certainly never judged you when Adel explained a certain bad situation with you. ( http://www.2gnt.com/dcforum/DCForumID25/408.html)

QUOTE:
_______________________________________

"You guys have to be careful dealing with Raizin (Paguio, Rick.) hell don't even deal with him till it's face to face.

Why? Well, over a year ago, I sold him my springs for hella cheap, they were in perfect condition, I sold them cause I needed the money so bad. I had 3 or 4 buyers but I thought needed them the most and he was a member of out 2GNT. anyway, he sent me bad check (I used COD) and as soon as I told him, he kept telling me " I am hella broke now, and I promise I will give them to you next week, I will even pay you an extra $20 to make it up" (sounded too good to be true)

3 months later (after telling me the same thing) he then said he does not need them and he will send them back, then I was like "whatever" waited hella long and never saw the money nor the springs. I also believe I am not the only one who got burnt by him (RAIZIN)

So I kept e mailing him asking for the money or the springs till he decided to talk shit and said "I have no money or springs" not only that, he also called me (Arabic ASS MOTHERFUCKER) now that does not sound very nice, he has been calling me names and all, and now he is being Racist. this is just messed up"
___________________________________________
quote from Adel

All I'm saying is that people should treat Bill just as you would treat any other poster, if not better, on the board (WITH RESPECT) and not have any feeling of "entitlement." Too many in our generation have that ridiculous attitude...

Bill, I hope that you continue to post here and you can overlook many of these "ettiquette-challenged" posters just as you probably have to in your real-life business situations.

Jason
98' Eagle Talon ESi-T
Mitsu Super 16g Turbo(HRC)/Custom FMIC


http://springfielddsm.homestead.com/JasonsPics.html

Same old sob story... it doesn't faze me cuz only I and a few people know the real deal..

Peace out!!!

LAST EDITED ON 23-May-01 AT 09:32 PM (PST)

.

LAST EDITED ON 22-May-01 AT 07:22 PM (PST)

UPDATE:
I just noticed that HRC posted a reply, while I was typing mine..... Oh well...

LAST EDITED ON 22-May-01 AT 07:19 PM (PST)


This thread is getting way off-track, so I might as well....

RAIZIN:
I don't usually get myself in the middle of arguments like this, but this time, I feel that I have to.

>Simply because when I called for advice way back when they
>wouldn't give it to me because I wasn't their customer...

First, the questions was "detonation" and not "Why/Why you don't like HRC". I understand that you may have a reason to be pissed off (however trivial it seems to me), but it's quite off topic. You wanna get pissed of at a vendor? Take it up with them.

You want my definition of "bad" vendor? Try first PAYING for parts AND donating your stock parts, and *still* waiting SEVEN months for them to arrive. That's what I would call a crappy vendor. I am not saying the vendor's name, 'coz I don't wish to start another war. I just stated that to show the difference.

Actually, thinkning back, a certain vendor even once told me to "sell my JE Pistons and Crower Rods because they are crap"!!! Then they refused to help me, because I hadn't "bought the parts from them" and they couldn't "guarantee them". Brand new JE & Crower parts no less.. And All I wanted was a ported head FROM THEM! This was their ploy to make me also buy their pitsons and rods!

In my opinion, Bill is doing us a favour by actually even WASTING his time to read this board, let alone reply. Take a look in the main channel and see how many "To BILL/HRC" questions there are.

Also unfortunately we all didn't get "Free stainless tubular manifolds", maybe because we aren't as fortunate as you to be in a popular crew like 935Draggers.

I understand that you may know a cosiderable amount about our cars, so please, make an example and give *constructive* advice!

----

Nobody "sponsors" me. So I hope I can be less biased when I say these things:

I bought my turbo kit from Hahn Racecraft (HRC) for SEVERAL reasons.

One of the reasons was the fact that HRC actually cared enough about our cars to do something about it. And they did it professionally, with an *extremely* informative website, as compared to the "competition".

HRC is also a well-known 4G63 DSM vendor. Practically NO other DSM vendor even considers our cars worth looking at 'coz they are so "single-track" minded. He took a great risk for us. Granted it's a business and he must make some money to survive (just like the rest of us) and he obviously isn't becoming a millionaire from selling 420A turbo kits.

Also, the fact that the 11sec RS even existed, helped ALOT when I was considering a turbo kit - and yes it exists, I have seen it all, in Stage V trim, and even its funny seat covers :-) ) HRC actually RACES our cars, they don't just sit back and produce turbo kits.

Now, just because, Bill actually checks this board and posts to it (which by itself was a huge surprise for me) doesn't mean that you can sit and insult him 'coz you don't like his company. I honestly don't see any other kit designers on this board actually answering *any* technical questions at all.



Oh, and in case any of you are wondering, I did this out of my own free will.

Guy
RS_Guy



http://www.GTuned.com

http://members.home.net/xtatdsm



very well put together RS-Guy. Also MR Bill has very good points about not being able to help the people who buy products from other vendors simply because if he does so, it will be injustice for those who paid the money to HRC seeking their products/Tech support.

Raizin, would you e mail me ! !



Adel

HRC: Actually, when you put it that way.. I have no choice but to respect the way you handle your business. My apologies.

RS-GUY: Regardless, I'm still curious of what HRC has to say about detonation. Because with all I've invested in my 420A.. I feel I at least need some insight. Maybe this was just my indirect way of inquiring since the turn-out of my first approach wasn't exactly satisfactory.

Raizin, Thanks for not dragging this on more than it has to.

Guy
RS_Guy



http://www.GTuned.com

Well I'm not exactly slamming you like raizin I just said sometimes such as the nitrous question a general answer other than "for hahn costumers interested in nitrous contact me" (which is good advice) BUT any idiot trying to do it knows there are significant differences in the kits that would require so changes to do BUT there could have been more help given in general as to the question of rising rate regulators and nitrous use. We could have called NX, NOS or whoever to get the info but it would have been nice to get it from the man (you) since you have the answers and are here.

You got me all wrong about the tech policy with specifics (or maybe I said it all wrong). I dont expect to call with my Star kit and get some instructions or how to's. I dont go to a honda dealer to get details about my eagle. What you do in that regards is your perogative (got to get my bobby brown tape to get the spelling right).

However if I ask for some advice from one of the many hahn kit owners on the board I expect to get the best and most complete advice they can give me as I'd do the same for them (if I could).

Now I by know means want you to stop posting or leave the board (I'd leave 1rst as I cant do a damn thing to help most of the guys here). I have learned some sh*t from you and everyone else. I think I did say a few good thing too (and have said your kit was better overall but we dont want to go there again).

Now as for the question can we get some general principles and info related to the 420A and timing (I'm not asking for SPECIFIC solutions and a parts list. Your customers can call you for further assistance hahahahaha).




Stan2gnt
Stan2va@aol.com
95 Talon 420A-Turbo
Former and future nitrous user

It seems like we all had a chance to air out some feelings here, which is always good.

Perhaps some guidelines for future communications would be helpful. I propose that anyone feel free to ask any question they like, with one exception: HRC customers should not use this board as a customer service / tech support conduit. We have many established, convenient channels for them to get the info they need, and it is now apparent that airing their questions here leads to all sorts of chaos. Juan lets us play pretty loose here, and many other message boards come down on such customer service questions firmly with no exceptions. Sure, free speech rules, but full blown anarchy is dangerous: this ain't the Wild West! I will post a thread describing how HRC customers should achieve assistance.

If any question can be asked, then I will answer (or decline to) in the method that I feel is most appropriate. I will not criticize the question or questioner. In turn, my answers (or lack of them) will not be analyzed and critiqued for hidden agendas. This seems to me like a fair approach for all. We all have better things to do than argue about the he say/she says bulls#!t. Diversity breeds adversity, but if you spend more time enjoying your car than reading between the lines, everyone will be happier.

As you might imagine, I am walking a tightrope for the moment as I decide what to do that will not inflame, while still maintaining a helpful and sociable presence. But this is a big world, with many points of view. Something about human nature has always struck me as exquisitely odd: we all agree that variety is the spice of life, yet we spend all our lives trying to make everyone else exactly like ourselves. What a drab world this would be if we succeeded and everyone was the same!

OK: philosophy off.

Our experience to date (have to say it: these statements are based upon our sole experience with HRC equipped cars, and may not apply to others):

As Stan mentioned, the 420A is a very detonation resistant engine by design. While this is good thing, it has one bad side: the ability to resist detonation is so high, it seems to encourage people to go too far! Even with an excellent design such as the 420A, there is a threshold that, once passed, will lead to detonation damage. Where does it lie? Many variables affect this answer, and no single yardstick exists. We have seen no problems with our Stage II systems at their standard boost level of 8 PSI. The tuning manual that is provided with the systems addresses the important aspects of trying to run higher boost. Anything over 8 PSI should be set up by a professional, as outlined in the manual. In testing, we have effectively run as much as 10-11 PSI, but only for quarter mile sprints, and only with professional prep and instrumentation (air-fuel meter, EGT, fuel pressure). Only skilled tuners / operators should attempt these boost levels, and they do so at their own risk. Our higher Stage systems (III-V) employ ignition enabled spark retard for safety. Our RS runs 15-16 PSI of boost on the street (93 octane) with its Stage V system, and 25 PSI at the track (114 octane) for 11.70's @ 122.

Here's your favorite part: further info on the above (should HRC customers need more info than comes in their installation / tuning / troubleshooting guide) is available through our standard tech channels, whether via email or telephone.

Bill

hehe good answer, now back to the nitrous question... :-)

Stan2gnt
Stan2va@aol.com
95 Talon 420A-Turbo
Former and future nitrous user

Stan, which nitrous question do you refer to? Without again scanning the entire contents of this thread, I do not recall having seen it. Was it on another thread previously?

Bill

hahah.. what? What.. did you expect me to kick and scream like a little bitch?

I think we have a different mentality then some other boards/teams/etc... can we all just grow da fuck up? such a waste of time posting back on forth the finally agreeing that we aint steppin on each othas toes... that should have been agreed on already!



Oh yea... u know i be pimpin!

"RACECAR backwards is RACECAR!"

Kory
korynguyen@yahoo.com
Happy Honda Hunting!

I second dat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Ball Bearing Star Stage II
"Power is nothing without control"

nah, i agree with what Bill said:
"
It seems like we all had a chance to air out some feelings here, which is always good.
"