I spent the entire day at VT Competition Engine Development today for the Michigan Club DSM meet. XtremeRS was there as well and helped me tune my car, and vis versa (thanks bro). It was awesome weather and I had a great time. Early on in the day i did my 1st pull on the dyno and I cant remember the numbers, but XtremeRS has pics that I'm sure he can post up :thumbsup. Later on that evening, I put it back on the dyno and tuned it with a wideband for about 2-3 hours. I must've made almost 20 pulls trying to get it perfect. At the end of the night, my best pull was 264 hp and 279 ft/lbs of torque at 14-15 psi of boost. I wanted to turn it up to 18 psi of boost with race gas, but I had too much fuel left in my tank to drain out. Anyway, I had a blast and I thought I'd just share some numbers. Matt, feel free to post up some pics :7.

B.T.W. VT gave me a price for built shortblocks for you guys....... $1670 for JE pistons, eagle rods, yada yada (same as howell's bottom end) including all machine work with a deck plate, balancing, blueprinting and assembly. Not too shabby eh :thumbsup.

You got a badass setup going i wish my car is where your car is at i got most of the parts just to lazy and not enough time in a day and not smart about all the turbo stuff yet. Thanks for all your help i left you feedback.

Awesome! :thumbsup

95 Eclipse RS : 5 speed
Jeep TB writeup - http://www.dimensia.com:81/jimbo/JeepTBfor2gnt.html

Yeah, that was a lot of fun out there!! Had a really good turnout, good food, and nothing but talkin about cars :) One of the first gen DSM masterminds put down close to 500 HP to the wheels! A big ass turbo, 27 psi, and an 80 shot of n2o..watching that on the dyno was scary haha. Wow, matt, you must have been over there for a while after i left, looks like you picked up more power. We tuned his setup for 15 psi in about 40 minutes, and made 250 HP to the wheels. Not bad for barely any tuning. We also got my car up and boosting to 10 psi..all i can say is damn, that cylinder head is badddd asssss :o
Here are some pics of Matt_95tgs's dyno run.

Getting the car strapped down


Running on the dyno


A snapshot of the computer screen after his very first run of the day


The graph peeks right at the 250HP mark. Well matt, looks like you gained 14HP from some tuning! :thumbsup 15 psi feels good. Very good. That equals over 300HP to the crank for sure :o

VT has an AWSOME shop out there. If there was anyone i would trust my engine too, it would be these guys. For around 1700 bucks for a fully built block with all the goodies? Hell yeah! Plus, their diamond stone honing, makes ring break in almost non existant. My rings were prob broken in within 50 miles..

Excellent numbers:thumbsup Glad to hear everything's going well. Wow! You got almost 20 dyno pulls? That's awesome.

Good numberrs Matt :thumbsup XtremeRS needs to get his car on the dyno with 10psi for the hell of it......sounds like you guys had a lot of fun!

>Good numberrs Matt :thumbsup XtremeRS needs to get his car
>on the dyno with 10psi for the hell of it......sounds like you
>guys had a lot of fun!


Well i was getting lots of peer pressure to put my car on the dyno!hahah..i just wanted to wait for a bit though...you know..i just got my damn car done!, plus i didnt have the cash. I'm going to tune my car to around 12 psi, or 13, depending on how much fuel i got left. I will dyno then :)

hey guys, did you check the hp gain by using the ert dp over the stock dp? i thought you guys where going to do that?... so are you guys going to send/go over to ert to finish up the dp soon?
hehe as you can tell i cant wait...
Michael 99gs
HRC Stage 2 @12psi :D
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild
2GNT Member #32

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

I will be changing out the ert downpipe and dynoing with the stock one again later in the week. It took a long time to get the car tuned, so we ran out of time to change out the ert dp and do it again. As you can see from the dyno graph there, I was pig rich at high rpms. I wound up leaning out a lot up top and it straightened up that curve alot.

Very nice Matt!

I want some of your EIC numbers now! :thumbsup

Hey Matt 95tgs,

Where is VT Competition Engine Development? Can you be more specific as to what that price is for? I assume this is with us providing them with a short block... if that's the case, I'll find one and ship it to them. Please provide contact info.

Thanks!

OK, nevermind... Lansing, MI... I can drive there. :)

That's awesome man. I wish when I am done with my turbo kit and rebuilt, I will be able to get those number.

I have some questions.
Are you saying that with around $1700, VT can rebuild my engine for me? with all the goodies in the Howell bottom end kit and rebuild, boring, honing, cleaning, balancing, and all the installation and so on? Just for $1700, my car can be running with a rebuild engine?

Also, I live in Albany area, is there any other branches or other place I can get the same deal and same quality?

Thanks guys..
I wish those numbers are on my car too man...GOOD JOB:thumbsup
Gil

sounds good. i really want to figure out how much of a difference it is. that will help me decide if i should wait or not.. matt, is it easier to tune the efi on the dyno with the wideband o2 then on the street? i assume it should be.. i might get the efi hehe
Michael 99gs
HRC Stage 2 @12psi :D
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild
2GNT Member #32

http://www.dreamwater.net/purplebeast

Yea, tuning with a wideband makes tuning much easier and much more accurate. All of the guys at VT were very impressed with the 034EIC. Especially the software because it has a lot of similarities with the AEM EMS standalone system (minus timing control of course).

>That's awesome man. I wish when I am done with my turbo kit
>and rebuilt, I will be able to get those number.
>
>I have some questions.
>Are you saying that with around $1700, VT can rebuild my
>engine for me? with all the goodies in the Howell bottom end
>kit and rebuild, boring, honing, cleaning, balancing, and all
>the installation and so on? Just for $1700, my car can be
>running with a rebuild engine?
>
>Also, I live in Albany area, is there any other branches or
>other place I can get the same deal and same quality?
>
>Thanks guys..
>I wish those numbers are on my car too man...GOOD JOB:thumbsup
>
>Gil

That is exactly what I am saying. It is an extremely sweet deal, which is why I am pushing it on the forum so much. Their site is www.vtengines.com. All you have to do is send them a block with a crank and you will get back a fully machined and assembled block that was put together by the best of the best. I don't know if they have any other branches around you. You will need to call them and ask at 517-272-7728. Ask for Nick and tell him that Matt from 2gnt sent you, and he will go through any questions you may have.

EDIT: If in your question you are asking if they will take your engine out and put the new one in as well as build the motor, then no. The price is for a fully built block only. Sorry if there was any confusion there.

That's SWEET. It's a GREAT deal. I guess I am going there in 2 months!!! Thanks man for telling us this deal man.

BTW... I am thinking, if I pull out the engine and bring it over......how can I bring it over?.. I was thinking about using a car and put it in the truck. Like take out the spare tires..adn stuff.

But my friend said it's impossible. You guys now how heavy it is?
Is it possible to put it in a regular car's truck?? or anyother Eclipse Truck?

Thanks man.
Gil

If you bring just the block and crank, you can fit it in any car really. I fit my block in the trunk of a plymouth breeze. Its not THAT heavy where you need a truck or anything.

what do you mean by just the block and the crank? is that the WHOLe engine? what is the different?
Thanks... (I always want to konw this for a while now)
Gil

he means that you dont leave the head on the motor. basically, the block with the crank in it will look like this:

The block is just that, everything stripped off of it. No intake, or exaust mani, no cylinder head, no trans, no oil pan, just the block that makes up the internals of the engine. You can leave the crank alone, they need that. Rough guess of weight of block with crank in it, around 150 lbs. Here is a pic of my block fully dissasembled

Nice #'s!

What performance mods do you have?

well, quite a few...

hrc stage 2 kit, greddy type s, wallbro intank, aeromotive 1:1 regulator, 034eic and 4 30# additional injectors, udp, ported/polished head, built bottom end, fidanza flywheel, SPEC stage 3 clutch, 2.5" turbo back exhaust, hallman mbc, crane valve springs... i think that's pretty much it.

That's sweet. You rebuilt the engine yourself?

Well, so Basically, they do boring, cleaning, balancing and everything with just the block?

So I basically reasemble all the thing when I got it back.

Hey Matt, So how long does it take the VT to do the Block? put in stuff in, balance, bore..etc...??
2 days? 1 week?

Thanks man.
Gil.

well they will put the block together for you so all you have to do is re-install the water pump, oil pump and sensors, and bolt it back up to the tranny. Once they have the block and the crank, it generally takes them about a week or 2 and you'll have it back.

Hey thanks for spreading the news about VT Matt_95tgs. Btw nice dyno pulls!

Nice...can I Ship the block to them and they do the work?

Yep, you can do that. They can do whatever you want. If you want to drive your car there, leave it there for a few weeks, and then come pick it up with a new motor in it tuned to perfection on the dyno, they will do it. Obviously it would cost more, but they can do absoulutely anything you want. Just call them and tell them what you have in mind.

Of course I must ask, but why did you not try 18psi on just pump gas? If you were rich at 15, you probably had enough for 18. Your fuel setup and your engine is more than capable. This is again that phantom 15psi block roaming around here. Pressure is such a misused guide.

yeah i agree with ^^^, you got enough fuel to handle 18psi, with all those dyno runs you did you should've attempted it IMO especially it was the perfect time to do it. even if you think it's a timing advance issue, i don't think it would've been a problem. you wouldn't go lean at all. at least you would be 300+ at the wheels. i'm going to the dyno today and i'll see my numbers on 13-15psi. i will find out for sure if this timing advance is such a big thing that all of us are scared to attempt passed 15psi. i think it's all about the fuel mixture and not all about the timing. i've read many articles concerning this and talked to an engineer concerning our cars and the timing advancing with the SAFC. as long as you have enough fuel kicking out of the injectors and have the right fuel mixture, you're safe! dyno and wide band 02 is the key. many of us here are amature tuners, and for those who detonated did not know what they were doing. that's what 'cause them to spend thousands of dollars on a rebuild. so those attempting to go passed the limit make sure you know what your are doing.

Our ecu does not see boost. Our timing is not boost related. Our timing is the same regardless of how much boost you run.

I dont know, its not just throw in more fuel with boost. Its just not that simple. I think our timing advance is ok over 15 psi, and the fuel is def there, but IMO, we have to do something about our cam timing, and/or lift/duration. By looking at matt's car on the dyno, he was running pretty darn rich, but still had high EGT's. MOst likely to extremely high cylinder pressures, as that can cause high EGT's. A nice set of turbo cams, and adjustable cam gears "I" think will REALLY wake up our motors under boost, esp after 15 psi..

It IS that simple. Were these dyno runs done with the stock downpipe?

Another thing. Did you not use a wideband? What were the readings?

he was using a 2.5" downpipe, 2.5" cat back, and wideband o2 How many turbo guys on here are pushing 15+ psi, have cams, and have dynoed both stock and aftermarket cams?? I cant think of anyone really.. There is LOTS more to making high HP than just A/F ratios... Matt's first torque curve was rather hilly, but he did say it flatened out somewhat after wideband tuning. Just by looking at the 4g63 guy's dyno runs, their motors are much flatter in the torque curve than out motors under boost. Thats where cams and cam timing really come into play IMO. Of course, i'm not an expert, this is just my theroy. Hopefully i will plan on dynoing at 15 psi, stock cams, then get the Crane #14's, then dyno at 15 psi. I'm very interested to see what happens.. I may have this info on my computer, but if anyone can get to it before i can, compare the stock cam profiles of the 420A to the 4g63. Now that would be interesting..I'm betting that by using some turbo gring cams on the 420A, that getting another 15-25 HP for the same amount of boost is possible..Atcually now that i think about it, there really hasen't been many turbo guys on here that have spent a lot of good dyno tuning time..at least with a shop that really knows how to tune a turbo non turbo motor.

Up top, I was getting about 11.3:1 on the wideband which is still rich, but as we went from 10:1 to 11.3:1, the egt's kept going up and up. At the end of the dyno pull with my a/f at 11.3:1, my egts were at 1600 which is why i didn't add more air. The reason for these high egts i believe lies with my cam timing. I would imagine that a set of cam gears would go a long way with droping those temps some. I dont want to burn exhaust valves just to put down 30 more hp on the dyno... not worth it. Also, my ignition timing stayed at about 17-18 degrees of advance from 3k to 5k rpms, but from 5k to 6.5k rpms the timing increased to 20-22 degrees which isnt too bad. If my egts were a bit lower, I would have added some more boost, but for now, I'm gonna wait to get some crane #16's and some cam gears and see what I can do with that. I may try adding some race gas to the mix and see what happens as well. Other than cam timing, I really cant think of how to drop those exhaust temps... any ideas?

wow. too bad i missed that! I would have been there for sure if i would have heard about it. VT is going to be building my shortblock soon, then ill have 2 built motors and 1 body hah. I guess ill sell one on ebay... }(

well today i went to the dyno, i did pretty good. i don't have the print out 'cause the printer didn't work over there. i self tuned my car and got good results. starting from 3k to 4.5k i had to lean it out on the SAFC. i got 11:4:2 from 3k and went slightly up to 12:2 to 4.5k, from 5k to 7k it was pretty good. 13:5 to 13:8 i just had to adjust it +2%. i did a second pull and not bad i had 222.8 hp and 208.7 ft lbs of tq @ 12psi. now this is with a stage 2 CM clutch which sucked when it came to tuning @ 15psi. i did a 3rd test run @ 15psi, and slipped big time. the third run was 175.9 hp and i was soooo pissed. the guy helping tune said that my a/f mixture is real good just buy the new clutch. i need a stage 4 bad! my mixture on the 3rd run was 3k to 4.5k sloped slighly from 12:5:1 to 13:2:1 and from 5k to 7k 14:2:1 to 14:4:1 so it was right on for my setup. i could've had moer runs, bnut i decided to quit 'cause i knew the same results would happen with this clutch. i could get my car to atleast 270hp @ the wheels with the CM stage 4. well hope this shows it has nothing to do with timing retard or anything 'cause i have no MSD DIS-2 hooked up and it handled smoothly. just a regular FMU 6:1 with 370cc injectors and SAFC my EGT's still good.

Yea, that sounds about right. My ignition timing isnt the problem. The amount of advance is set pretty good. Honestly, I probably could have added about 2 degrees if I had something to adjust it with, but on pump gas, I like to be conservative. The only reason for my high egt's that I can think of is my cam timing. Either that or a faulty egt probe...

EDIT: Good numbers by the way! Hit me up with an email about a clutch if you are interested. There is a business here who builds custom clutches that can build you a clutch equivilant or better to a CM stage 4 for far less money. Just ask XtremeRS or Jason_EsiT :).

http://www.armond30.com/adp/004.html

309 hp and 334 lb ft of torque at 22 psi

no cam gears, stock cams

The car will absolutely make more power with a few more less restrictive mods, but it does not mean it can not make power now. Pressure is overrated. The S16G is not that large of a turbo.

Have you not considered that perhaps your temps are so high because you are too RICH?? I suspect you are simply heating up the probe. even going from 10.1 up to 11.3:1 is pretty damn rich. You most likely have a lot of unburnt fuel sitting in your exhaust igniting later on causing your temps to read high. Also remember that the probe has a delay and is not in real time.

>Other than cam timing, I really cant think of how to drop
>those exhaust temps... any ideas?

Water Injection? Supposed to work really well.....

Current Mods:
Flowmaster Muffler
Ghettofied PVC intake w/K&N Filter
Platinum +4 Plugs
MSD Super Conductor Wires
1 Heavy Right Foot!!!!!

i think what helped me get the most temp drop was when i decided to go 3" exhaust and no cat.with stock with cat, when i cruised on the highway from 70-90mph my temps were like from 1300-1425. and boosting WOT from 1st to 3rd i always skyrocketed towards 1550, but then again this was with stock piping . and with 3", it dropped a whole mess, about 200 less all around the powerband. cruise at 70-90mph it stays an even 1250-1300. and WOT i never see passed 1300 till i get full boost at very high speed in 5th gear. that's when i egt closer to seeing passed 1500-1550. so i think it's mostly having to do in getting all that hot exhaust out of the turbo quicker. so if i guess you go this route in getting bigger exhaust it should help bring it down a bit. but maybe you're either too rich or too lean. but it seems you're too rich since you're 8 injector and dumping lots of fuel that's my opinion.

2.5" exhaust is large enough for a 16G turbo. If you are seeing temps that high then the problem will not be fixed by throwing more mods at the car. I would start with leaning out the fuel.