I have the accel 30ibs and currently running 12psi and just got took by a Camry Solara this morning on the highway. Those of you who are running at least 15psi, what did it take? Any timing retard, msd ignition, SAFC? I want to know if I'll have any problems running 15psi. As of now car runs awesome and a little rich at 12 psi.

Dont worry about timing and SAFC you dont need to worry about because you said you are already running rich... The ignition, not quite sure about. If you have an air/fuel gauge in your car just keep an eye on that all the time. Keep it rich and up the PSI. you'll be fine if you have enough fuel.

>Dont worry about timing and SAFC you dont need to worry about
>because you said you are already running rich... The ignition,
>not quite sure about. If you have an air/fuel gauge in your
>car just keep an eye on that all the time. Keep it rich and
>up the PSI. you'll be fine if you have enough fuel.


WHAT?!?!? If you up the boost without timing retard you will melt down the motor. Guaranteed. :nono I don't car how rich you're running, that can't make up for the timing spike between 11 and 15 psi. A/F voltage will be fine while your pistons start cracking.

Think about it. If the timing advances too far, how is more fuel going to help? The mixture will just be igniting early (timing advance) and leading to detonation. The extra fuel coming in won't be enough to cool things down. :wary

Get a Crane or MSD box that has boost referenced timing retard (do a search, plenty has been posted on this), and then you can safely turn up the boost. :thumbsup

:shrug: Mark 96avenger laid down over 300whp on 22psi w/ no timing retard, stock ecu, and Armond ran nearly 30psi with no timing retard when his msd phucked up again and was removed for repairs.

Both saw ~17* of timing at wot depsite different boost and power levels.

Then go for it I guess.

I've been wondering about this too. My high boost setting is 15psi, which I use occasionally in street races and at the track. I've datalogged it a few times and haven't seen any timing problems.

Even if the timing DOES spike between 11 and 15psi, will it stay there long enough to do any damage? The time it takes the turbo to spool from 11-15 is a fraction of a second.

>>>can't make up for the timing spike between 11 and 15 psi<<<

There is no timing spike. If you don't have something messing with the MAP voltage then you will have ~17 degrees advance at WOT whether you are running 5psi, 15psi, 30psi. Our ECU does not see boost therefore the timing can't change at different boost levels. Not trying to be a jerk by picking out your quote Greg but I don't want anyone spending more money than they need to.

But to answer the question. I ran 15psi with 440's and an SFMU. That's IT. It ran a little rich and wasn't the most tunable so I am now using the 440's with the 8 injector setup but none the less it will run ok with just those 2 things.

Hey Matt what's stopping you from going to 20psi? If our ecu doesn't see boost so long as you have the missing link or eliminate an electronic fcd, therefore no timing is being pulled? Because if this was the fact, then hell I'll be doing 15psi daily. What's the worse that can happen and what would be the signs? I still don't know what detonation sounds like.

I run 15psi with no timing retard, AFC and 440s and a non-adjustable FMU with a 3:1 disk. Sometimes, like now with my 3.55 gears, i hit 17-18psi. No timing retard, no aftermarket ignition of any kind, and no EGTs over 1500* ever. Good gas milage, too.

Maybe i'm just special? Or maybe a lot of people have no idea how to tune an SAFC. I'm not poking at anyone here, just saying - having been here for so long, i've seen a lot of people with some pretty phucked up AFC settings, which would really explain some of the problems people have with timing advance. (negative 30 at 7000RPM WHAT??)

Best advise i can give, look on the main 2gnt site, there is an EXCELLENT 2afc tuning guide by RS_Guy.

Then why do I get detonation above 12psi? Is it because of the DFI? Why does the DFI come with a 2 bar map sensor for the timing retard so it will quit retading timing above 15psi? Is the trick to make it pig rich so you don't have to worry about it? I'm lost. If I drop my timing retard back to zero, I get detonation. Always have (since going to stage 4 anyway). Some one want to clue me in? What am I missing here?

Get a missing link, and run like normal.
People with SAFC's, get a missing link, but don't lean it out too much because that is when timing will advance.
Lean it out with your fuel press. regulator instead of the safc.
Use that just for fine tuning.
Like DaveFL he had perfect A/F ratio, perfect EGT's but he was using the safc to lean it out, and melted his pistons.

>Then why do I get detonation above 12psi? Is it because of
>the DFI? Why does the DFI come with a 2 bar map sensor for the

Three bar, AFAIK..

>timing retard so it will quit retading timing above 15psi? Is

The DFI's fuel control has NOTHING to do with the stock ECU's timing, other than its ability to create knock. Tune the dfi in such a way, the stock ECU will pull timing, EGTs will rise, and you'll melt shit. The DFI uses a MAP sensor to determine airflow, and that is all. On our cars, the DFI could give a shit less about timing.

>the trick to make it pig rich so you don't have to worry about
>it? I'm lost. If I drop my timing retard back to zero, I get
>detonation. Always have (since going to stage 4 anyway). Some
>one want to clue me in? What am I missing here?

I dunno, Greg. You've run faster than me, so i can't say i'd know better than you. But, there are a few simple things to consider: Is the stock map connected? Can it see boost? it shouldn't, on your car. if it can, fix it. Do you run ~8.8:1 compression? If so, our tuning should be similar. If not, well then don't treat anything i say as golden because for your setup, thats just not the way it works.

What i can tell you for a fact: MY ecu does not advance timing beyond 20* or so. My ECU doesn't react to MAP voltage in the same way 96+ cars do. I can do crazy, even stupid things with my car's fuel and it giggles, spits codes, and keeps going. I don't know. I've laid down over 300 wheel HP, and 13.90's at 104 to 105mph, on street tires and pump gas. From what i've read here over the last year, 440's and a super leaned down AFC blows motors. Mine works.. always has. I don't really know what to tell you.

Go with what works for you, and screw what anyone else has to say.

My whole problem was I had my safc leaned out a lot because of the damn hrc fpr. I cant get my fuel pressure under 90 psi at WOT. So I had the safc leaned out a lot and my head gasket went out due to detonation and after that went out my pistons got really hot and melted a little. I was running 15-16 psi at the time. Once I get a new fuel pressure regulator I will be fine because I turn the fuel pressure way down and richen the safc up. These damn safc's like to mess with our engine pretty bad if they are leaned out a lot.

Well, I've got plenty of fuel pressure, no AFC, and a Missing Link. I realize that the ecu sees no boost, I also know that on the way to WOT, I have seen well over 20 degrees of timing. I also know that the DFI does not control any aspect of timing. And the map sensor I was referring to was the map sensor for the Crane timing retard. It is only a 2 bar sensor, because according to Bill H "you don't need timing retard after 15psi". Also, if the ecu 'sees' knock and pulls timing won't that keep it from knocking (generally speaking)?

I understand that there are several people on the board running 15 psi without timing control, I just want to know why it works, and with Stage 4 it doesn't. All the DFI is being used for is a glorified AFC, but it has it's own map signal and the ecu is still seeing it's own stock map signal, un-molested.

when armond did marks car with 440cc injectors. he went up to 22psi with no retarding of any kind. i think he said, he had stock advance of 17.. he just mess around with idle fp, and the rise/rate, and only use the afc for small changes. not to be a dick, but if you got a afc and dont know that if you lean that bad boy out like -40+ all over and no retard is stupid ( from my pov )... also without a good fpr..

Michael 99gs
HRC Stage 2 @12psi :D
Stage 3 process begins gathering parts for rebuild
2GNT Member #32

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I found it very interesting when datalogging my car. As SOON as the car went into boost, i mean 1 psi, the ignition timing went down to around 17 degrees advance. This was at part throttle, any boost pressure, and WOT. As soon as it boosted, the timing went down. From what i can tell, when the MAP sees WOT air flow pressure (0 psi), it retards the timing, like it should be actually. The same thing happened when we datalogged Matt_95tgs's car too. Mine is a 98, his is 95, so both systems had the same results. I'm very interested to see if anyone else can watch their timing with a datalogger and see what it goes to when it sees boost. And i have no idea why Bill says we dont need any retard AFTER 15 psi?? That makes no sense at all. We should be able to run at least 15 psi without any retard, running 92-93 octane fuel, and running slightly rich. If you can only get 91 octane fuel, then you may want to take out like 1 degree starting at 15 psi, but thats it. I may try something out too when it comes time to run 15+ psi. MSD makes that boost timing retard control unit for like 160 bucks. It has a dash mounted dial control to adjust retard from 1 to 3 degrees with each pound of boost. Well since we dont need any retard till later on in boost pressure, i want to try and hook up a manual boost controller to the boost line going to the MSD sensor. This way, we can limit the boost pressure that the MSD unit sees, and then we can adjsut the MBC to whatever we want, lets say 17 psi. So at 17 psi, the MBC lets some boost pressure though, and then the MSD will only then start to retard the timing. I think it will work. I dont know, i just NEVER saw my timing under boost, go above 17-18 degrees advance..With that amount of advance, you should be able to run quite a bit of boost without any retard.

well I don't have the missing link yet, but then again I don't have any piggy back fuel system. I use at least 93 octane all the time if not 94. From reading this and to my understanding, I should be ok at 15psi that is unless I decide to add the afc . So missing link, 30ibs injectors and 15psi and a little rich should be a no problem.

I get knock at 20psi on 91 octane w/ no advance (only once). This is because of the 91 octane. At 15psi I retard nothing and get a 20 deg max reading on the data logger no knock. So what I do is pull 1 deg per 5 lbs of boost when running 20psi and I don’t get any knock.

I was one pissed cookie when I first went to stage 4. I data logged the car and saw no real aggressive advance. That is when I was lost as to what I should be at as far as timing advance and what was "unsafe" advance.

IOM the key is to know what your cars "stock" advance is at WOT and not go over that. And as stated it should never really go over that as long as your map doesn't see boost, BUT if your map sees boost guess what it cuts fuel and you hit a brick wall. W/ the DFI the map can see boost and it isn’t able to cut the fuel because the stock ecu isn’t controlling the fuel.

One thing I am worried about is how much boost the missing link and map sensor can take before they break?

Brian

At any psi, I see 17 degrees of advance. Every time. So does Ryan's, since I've datalogged his. I have a 98 and he has a 99.

992gnt---Kind of harsh about the timing thing, dont you think???

^^^^I don’t think Greg was trying or even meant to be harsh.

>Keep it rich and up the PSI. you'll be fine if you have enough fuel.

That may work for ~10psi but not the higher boost. Way too many things start to come into play at high boost. An a/f gauge is basically useless at high boost. I don’t think he meant to be harsh in any way. It's just that you don’t want to up the boost and fuel and go. If it worked that way everyone and their mother would be maxing out the turbo's at 30+psi.

I think it's just a matter of giving out correct information so people don’t break their stuff.

Anyway Greg is an awesome guy and I know he just didn't want anyone getting the wrong info, that's all.

Back to the topic though because this is a good thread (FINALLY)

Brian

guess it's time for me to start reading again on tuning. I'm new to this high rev tuning. I guess after you go above 10psi, you really need to know your shit. I was looking through the MSD catalog and saw the ignition control that came with the boost retard controller, which is why it led me to ask questions about advancing and timing retard along with high boost. I've been pushing 12psi without hearing any bangs or booms.

Not trying to ruffle anyones feather's here, just trying to figure out why my car is different from everyone elses. I will be doing some logging today. Maybe with the new cams things will be a little different. Dunno.

I would not run higher than 12psi with a S-FMU. You are just talking about to high of a fuel presure. And get a missing link. I run 15psi all the time. I use the 8 injector setup with a missing link and no ignition retard. My egts will spike at 1600deg. When I data logged my car I got 17deg advance at WOT as well. If you want to run higher boost get a safc or some time of fuel management system.

>I would not run higher than 12psi with a S-FMU. You are just
>talking about to high of a fuel presure.

Depends on your injector size... Remember though, the HRC kit has you running stock injectors over 100 psi so whats 80 psi on 440's gonna hurt?






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ive been running around 13 psi for over a year on 30# injectors and no afc, just sfmu...sometimes i hit 15 psi and never have i had a problem....just for the record...true you get around a 100 psi of fuel at 15 psi but with stage 2 hrc kit they want you to go to 120 psi on stock internals and a cheap fuel regulator...and they have done years of testing and say its ok to pump up the fuel..i think 100 psi is max fuel pressure, but not too dangerous, ive seen way worse setups....

Ideally, you dont want to push over 80 psi of fuel pressure on a fuel injector. When going over that, things get more to the likes of "maxing" out your injectors. For most injectors, when the pressure exceedes around 100-110 psi, there really isnt much more fuel that can come out of it by increasing the pressure even more. There just is a limit to how much fuel can come out. IMO, a high performance fuel injector, like Accel ect.., can take much more abuse, and also much better reaction to low, and high fuel pressures, instead of using like replacement ford mustang injectors ect.. Raising fuel pressure on injectors to give more fuel isn't really the best way to get more fuel, but it does work. But there are limits.

>>>As SOON as the car went into boost, i mean 1 psi, the ignition timing went down to around 17 degrees advance. This was at part throttle, any boost pressure, and WOT. As soon as it boosted, the timing went down. From what i can tell, when the MAP sees WOT air flow pressure (0 psi), it retards the timing, like it should be actually.<<<

Mine does the same thing. It's weird though because mine sees 19 degrees in closed loop boost and drops to 17 degrees as soon as I go WOT. That make sense though with the air flow. I wondered why it did that but it's awesome that it does. If not then we could be getting 30-40 degrees advance while closed loop boosting. Which I have never seen happen.

so 440's with a S-FMU and a S-AFC (of coarse a fuel pump upgrade) is all thats needed for 15+psi?

I'm tryin to sort out what hell i'm doing for fuel enrichment

>so 440's with a S-FMU and a S-AFC (of coarse a fuel pump
>upgrade) is all thats needed for 15+psi?

That's about the same setup as I run: 415cc injectors, S-FMU, S-AFC, Nippon Denso 190lph in-tank pump, and the Hahn external inline pump. I'm running 15psi with this setup.

Thanks :thumbsup

So Dino (or any 95 guy's) what do you think is the limit of the pressure our map will see before it breaks? I don't have a missing link or anything and am about to up the boost a good bit. Do you run the missing link or anything else to save the sensor? I got to get this damn datalogger working consistantly....fing pos